"Finnish Rommel"

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Harri
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"Finnish Rommel"

#1

Post by Harri » 07 Mar 2014, 22:04

splitted from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=68990
/Juha

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Art wrote:
Northwind wrote:The foreign press called him as "The finnish Rommel".
That is certainly an overstatement. The Finnish armored division despite the name was mostly a bicycle infantry unit, the role of armored elements was fairly limited. That was a very different type of warfare compared with the North-African campaign and analogies are not quite adequate.
Not really. I think this nickname refers to Lagus' leadership in the summer 1941 when he led the attack of reinforced 1st Jäger Brigade deep into East Karelia. Finnish jäger troops advanced very rapidly a bit like Rommel's 7.Pz.Div. had run in France in 1940 and his troops also later in North Africa. The analogy is quite relevant in this sense.

Besides Rommel was a known name in Finland already in the 1930's because of his book on motorized and tank warfare. Perhaps the quite correct nickname would have been "poor man's Rommel"... :lol:

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JTV
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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#2

Post by JTV » 08 Mar 2014, 05:49

Harri wrote: Not really. I think this nickname refers to Lagus' leadership in the summer 1941 when he led the attack of reinforced 1st Jäger Brigade deep into East Karelia. Finnish jäger troops advanced very rapidly a bit like Rommel's 7.Pz.Div. had run in France in 1940 and his troops also later in North Africa. The analogy is quite relevant in this sense.

Besides Rommel was a known name in Finland already in the 1930's because of his book on motorized and tank warfare. Perhaps the quite correct nickname would have been "poor man's Rommel"... :lol:
No offense, I find some parts of that more than uncertain. For one thing, I find the timing of matters as you portray them highly suspect, since I am pretty certain Rommel did not actually achieve international fame until during battles of North Africa, which started year 1941.

Second thing is that I am unaware of any book about "motorized and tank warfare" published by Rommel. The book that he is known for is Infanterie Greif an (Infantry Attacks) published in year 1937 and translated in Finnish in year 1939 as Jalkaväki hyökkää. The particular book is about Rommel's exploits as platoon, company and battalion commander during World War 1 in French, Balkans and Italy. He explains the battles in detail giving good account of the very daring infantry tactics that he developed during the war. Since Rommel fought World War 1 first commanding infantry and later mountain troops, the book has nothing about motorized infantry or tanks. His only other known publication was Aufgaben für Zug und Kompanie (Problems for the Platoon and Company), was a small manual for platoon and company commanders published year 1935 and was apparently not well-known even among German military. Or maybe you got the book mixed to Heinz Guderian's Achtung Panzer!, which was also published in year 1937 and was the corner stone of German tactics when it came to use of tanks.

Both Rommel's and Guderian's are nowadays available in English as affordable paperbacks.

Jarkko


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Harri
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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#3

Post by Harri » 10 Mar 2014, 02:21

JTV wrote:No offense, I find some parts of that more than uncertain. For one thing, I find the timing of matters as you portray them highly suspect, since I am pretty certain Rommel did not actually achieve international fame until during battles of North Africa, which started year 1941.

Second thing is that I am unaware of any book about "motorized and tank warfare" published by Rommel. The book that he is known for is Infanterie Greif an (Infantry Attacks) published in year 1937 and translated in Finnish in year 1939 as Jalkaväki hyökkää. The particular book is about Rommel's exploits as platoon, company and battalion commander during World War 1 in French, Balkans and Italy. He explains the battles in detail giving good account of the very daring infantry tactics that he developed during the war. Since Rommel fought World War 1 first commanding infantry and later mountain troops, the book has nothing about motorized infantry or tanks. His only other known publication was Aufgaben für Zug und Kompanie (Problems for the Platoon and Company), was a small manual for platoon and company commanders published year 1935 and was apparently not well-known even among German military. Or maybe you got the book mixed to Heinz Guderian's Achtung Panzer!, which was also published in year 1937 and was the corner stone of German tactics when it came to use of tanks.
Yes and no. It was not Guderian. You are mostly right in this particular book case. I just don't remember who was the Finnish commander who self bought books (I think it was some German language manual, not any novel or memoirs) to his subordinate officers during the YH period before the Winter War? Was it Col. Pajari and was it Rommel's work? I red about it some time ago. It is not so important but I just wanted to "prove" that Rommel was known among Finnish officers already in the 1930's. I think his book was translated by Maj. Wolf H. Halsti who had self wrote a book on defending Finland? Somehow these are related but I don't remember how.

Anyway I still claim that Rommel was known in Finland before 1941 and the mentioned nickname was derived from Rommel's actions in France in 1940 and later of course in North Africa in 1941. It although has little to do with the Finnish Armoured Division (formed since summer 1942) and nothing in its operations in 1944. Because Lagus led Finnish spearhead unit 1st Jäger Brigade (later reinforced with Armoured Battalion) in the summer and autumn 1941 north from Lake Ladoga there were many similarities in these attacks. Like I said Lagus was more "poor man's Rommel" than anything else.

BTW who gave that nickname to Lagus?

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Mar 2014, 21:46

JTV wrote: I am unaware of any book about "motorized and tank warfare" published by Rommel.
Me too.
Harri wrote: I just don't remember who was the Finnish commander who self bought books (I think it was some German language manual, not any novel or memoirs) to his subordinate officers during the YH period before the Winter War? Was it Col. Pajari and was it Rommel's work? I red about it some time ago. It is not so important but I just wanted to "prove" that Rommel was known among Finnish officers already in the 1930's. I think his book was translated by Maj. Wolf H. Halsti who had self wrote a book on defending Finland? Somehow these are related but I don't remember how.
It was Lt.Col Raappana who bought Rommel books (published in 1939) to his troops.
Translation was done by another "wolf" - Capt. Sulo V. Susi.
Harri wrote:Anyway I still claim that Rommel was known in Finland before 1941 and the mentioned nickname was derived from Rommel's actions in France in 1940 and later of course in North Africa in 1941.
I agree with Jarkko about how well (little) Rommel was known in Finland before the Afrika Korps success.

Harri wrote: It although has little to do with the Finnish Armoured Division (formed since summer 1942) and nothing in its operations in 1944. Because Lagus led Finnish spearhead unit 1st Jäger Brigade (later reinforced with Armoured Battalion) in the summer and autumn 1941 north from Lake Ladoga there were many similarities in these attacks. Like I said Lagus was more "poor man's Rommel" than anything else.

BTW who gave that nickname to Lagus?
IIRC that not that well known "nickname" came from German war correspondent propaganda watching some Finnish tank(Armoured Division?) exercises (1942-1944?)

Regards, Juha

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Harri
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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#5

Post by Harri » 26 Mar 2014, 18:34

Well, i will not continue this "Finnish Rommel" discussion because my "conceptions" in this case are not strong enough. Anyway Rommel was known in Finland because of his tactical views.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Harri wrote:BTW who gave that nickname to Lagus?
IRC that not that well known "nickname" came from German war correspondent propaganda watching some Finnish tank (Armoured Division?) exercises (1942-1944?)
It sounds reasonable that Germans invented this nickname but it may have also been used in Finland before that. It could have well been "ironic nickname" or an "insider joke" among certain Finnish officers. I still think it was used earlier, already in 1941. Summer 1942 is the latest possible time for the birth of this nickname.

What reason there would have been for that nickname in 1943 or 1944?

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#6

Post by Gamle Lode » 27 Mar 2014, 13:51

My impression of this very informal "Finland's Rommel" title is due to fact that Lagus was a fast maneuvering leader, just like Rommel. I concur with Harri, that the title was more about the "tactical views" rather than being a "panzer leader".

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#7

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Mar 2014, 18:31

Harri wrote:Well, i will not continue this "Finnish Rommel" discussion because my "conceptions" in this case are not strong enough. Anyway Rommel was known in Finland because of his tactical views.
Well, Rommel was first known from his book about not tank, but (mountain)infantry tactics during WWI, and then mostly from his success at North Africa.
Harri wrote: it may have also been used in Finland before that.

It could have well been "ironic nickname" or an "insider joke" among certain Finnish officers. I still think it was used earlier, already in 1941. Summer 1942 is the latest possible time for the birth of this nickname.
Does there exist any information to back up those suggestions and claims?
Harri wrote:What reason there would have been for that nickname in 1943 or 1944?
Actually (with a quick search) the only source for the whole "Finnish Rommel" I managed to find, was Robert Brantberg.
For instance at p.139 at his book Lagus Ritari n:o 1 he mentions that foreign reporters came to interview "Finnish Rommel" to Äänislinna. Also German propaganda personel came, and they made an interview in German, Swedish and Danish. Also a German language gramophone record was made.
German radio broadcasted the interview January 21st 1943

Regards, Juha

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#8

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Mar 2014, 20:38

While the credibility of the title "Finnish Rommel" remains a bit questionable, a similar one, "Pohjolan Rommel" ("Nordic Rommel") was given by war correspondent Antero Vartia to Col. Albert Puroma.
The article of Vartia about "Nordic Rommel" and his unit JR 12 was published at newspaper Uusi Suomi late (November-December) 1941.
Source:
Jarkko Kemppi book
Albert Puroma - Huutolaispojasta kenraaliksi

Regards, Juha

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#9

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Mar 2014, 19:28

Juha Tompuri wrote: Actually (with a quick search) the only source for the whole "Finnish Rommel" I managed to find, was Robert Brantberg.
For instance at p.139 at his book Lagus Ritari n:o 1 he mentions that foreign reporters came to interview "Finnish Rommel" to Äänislinna. Also German propaganda personel came, and they made an interview in German, Swedish and Danish. Also a German language gramophone record was made.
German radio broadcasted the interview January 21st 1943
Erkki Käkelä mentions more or less the same at his book Ruben Lagus Panssarikenraali

Regards, Juha

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#10

Post by Juha Tompuri » 29 Mar 2014, 22:30

Image SA-photo 62387
Eversti Puromaa, poikien lempinimellä ""Pohjolan Rommel"", esikuntineen kranaattikuopassa.
Kiestingin itäpuolelta 1941.11.02
Col. Puroma, the "Nordic/Northern Rommel" , as the boys call him, at a shell crater with his HQ
East of Kiestinki/Kestenga1941.11.02
Also 62388, 105827-9, 105840 and 111345 about "Rommel" and/or his unit.

Regards, Juha

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Re: "Finnish Rommel"

#11

Post by Gamle Lode » 09 Apr 2014, 12:30

SA-kuva archive occasionally writes Puroma's name as "Puromaa" - is he really the same person? The 'real' Puroma had those distinctive eyebrows which no person in the above picture seem to have. (Or maybe those are just frozen)

Robert Brantberg's Sotaupseerit give Albert Puroma another nickname: "Reikärauta".

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