Military training manuals in 1941?

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Lammio
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Military training manuals in 1941?

#1

Post by Lammio » 24 Sep 2014, 10:28

Many years ago I had some military training manuals of a man that was conscripted in autum of 1941, but I can not find them anymore. :(

So where can I find them? Have they been digitized?

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JTV
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#2

Post by JTV » 24 Sep 2014, 21:15

Lammio wrote: So where can I find them? Have they been digitized?
No, Finnish World War 2 military manuals have not been digitalized. They are nowadays collector's items and can typically be found from 2nd hand bookshops or if you live around Helsinki loaned from MPKK main library.

I have collected Finnish wartime military manuals more than a decade and have few dozen. Before anybody asks me to start scanning them and I can already answer that it is not going to happen. Normal flatbed scanner would require folding each manual beyond what 70-year+ old glue used for binding them can handle.

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#3

Post by OpanaPointer » 25 Sep 2014, 01:54

On the other hand, scanning them would give the whole world access to the documents. The words are worth more than the paper they're printed on. I know this, I run Hyperwar.

Just a thought.
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JTV
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#4

Post by JTV » 25 Sep 2014, 06:01

OpanaPointer wrote:On the other hand, scanning them would give the whole world access to the documents. The words are worth more than the paper they're printed on. I know this, I run Hyperwar.
It might give access to whole world, but that does not mean that all people with access to them could actually read and understand the documents. The manuals are written in Finnish - a language spoken by maybe about 6 - 7 million people in whole world and one of the small languages which all existing online translation tools translate into gibberish. And these are not exactly comic books either - typically there might be one drawing or photo for each 40 - 50 pages.

Not to mention copyright-issues. According Finnish (and EU?) copyright legislation author has copyrights for his/her books until 70 years after his/her death. When it comes to publications with multiple writers, the copyrights will exist until 70 years from death of the last writer. Hence for example manuals written by Major-General N.V. Hersalo (1895 - 1979) can be legally published online without copyright violation in year 2050. Most of the manuals published by Ministry of Defence or Armed Forces HQ probably had multiple writers, but they are not listed in the publications, creating additional complication in trying to figure out when the copyrights are no longer valid.

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#5

Post by Lammio » 25 Sep 2014, 06:51

JTV wrote:Normal flatbed scanner would require folding each manual beyond what 70-year+ old glue used for binding them can handle.
If a document is too fragile or to big to fit to a scanner, I take a digital photo of it. Of course, that does not solve the copyright issue.

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#6

Post by OpanaPointer » 25 Sep 2014, 12:17

Lammio wrote:
JTV wrote:Normal flatbed scanner would require folding each manual beyond what 70-year+ old glue used for binding them can handle.
If a document is too fragile or to big to fit to a scanner, I take a digital photo of it. Of course, that does not solve the copyright issue.
I do this frequently. I built a stand out of PVC piping to hold it at the right distance. Occasionally I've had archivists handle the material because it was too fragile for me to touch. In one case I was summoned to do the imaging because they were concerned the documents wouldn't survive more than one more handling. Turned out they were correct. I helped them develop a system where pages were turned using thin sheets of plastic to support the paper while turning it over to image the other side.

In general, if you have something of great rarity I would urge you to make a digital copy for preservation purposes. I done this with certain items and given copies to the copyright holder. They are advised that I will not include the material in Hyperwar without their permission.
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#7

Post by Lammio » 30 Sep 2014, 06:43

OpanaPointer wrote:I built a stand out of PVC piping to hold it [a document] at the right distance [and then take a photo of it].
What kind of stand I should make for a big document (height 30 cm, width 60 cm)?

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#8

Post by OpanaPointer » 30 Sep 2014, 12:58

Lammio wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:I built a stand out of PVC piping to hold it [a document] at the right distance [and then take a photo of it].
What kind of stand I should make for a big document (height 30 cm, width 60 cm)?
Sorry, badly written post on my part. The stand is to hold the camera. The document goes on the table below. This was used for copying a large amount of (uncopyrighted) material from books. If you're going to copy one document you can hold the camera by hand. For that kind of thing I got an artist's easel and clipped the item to it. Then you just have to avoid going trapezoidal. Carefully observed the image in the viewfinder to make sure it's square to the camera. I practiced that by imaging a road map until I had the process correct. If you have a camera that has a grid available for the view finder so much the better.
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Fliegende Untertasse
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#9

Post by Fliegende Untertasse » 30 Sep 2014, 16:31

JTV wrote:
Not to mention copyright-issues. According Finnish (and EU?) copyright legislation author has copyrights for his/her books until 70 years after his/her death. When it comes to publications with multiple writers, the copyrights will exist until 70 years from death of the last writer. Hence for example manuals written by Major-General N.V. Hersalo (1895 - 1979) can be legally published online without copyright violation in year 2050.
You mean he wrote it on his free time?
Copyright of any work done during working hours belongs to the employer. In Hersalos case employer is the state of Finland, making it a public document.

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#10

Post by JTV » 30 Sep 2014, 19:46

Fliegende Untertasse wrote:
JTV wrote: Hence for example manuals written by Major-General N.V. Hersalo (1895 - 1979) can be legally published online without copyright violation in year 2050.
You mean he wrote it on his free time?
Copyright of any work done during working hours belongs to the employer. In Hersalos case employer is the state of Finland, making it a public document.
Yes, that would be the legislation nowadays, but what about for works published in 1930's and 1940's? Anyway, even if the legislation would have been like that back then, there would a complication with the particular example that I used. When Hersalo wrote his manuals like Reserviupseeri johtajana (Reserve Officer as a Leader) and Kiväärijoukkueen johtaja (Leader of Rifle Platoon) in 1930's he was not serving in Finnish military, but in General Headquarters of Civil Guard (Suojeluskuntain Yliesikunta). As you probably know legislation-wise Civil Guard was volunteer organisation not directly accountable to the state in the same manner as Armed Forces - according Law about Civil Guard from year 1921 Commander in Chief of Civil Guard was subordinate to Minister of Defence, but that was the extent of it. Hence it is pretty safe to say that state of Finland was not really his employer at that time. The manuals he wrote were are also published with in his name - they were not published by Civil Guard and they are not Civil Guard publications or its manuals. Instead they were published by Otava and apparently intended to be sold to those interested in open market - the intended target group being reserve officers.

In fact, even if we assume that Civil Guard would have publishing rights for his works from 1930's there might be additional catch with the matter - when Civil Guard was disestablished in 1944 grand majority of Civil Guard organisation property was transferred to Finnish Red Cross, but I doubt anybody bothered to include publishing rights to any transfer of property (not really an issue of any real financial importance back then), hence it is more than likely that in such case their actual ownership would be unclear. This being the situation I suspect that Hersalo's living relatives are most likely owners of his copyrights.

Admitted, if this legislation would be valid for works made in 1930's and 1940's it would make things easier with pre-war and wartime official manuals published by Armed Forces. Although I am not sure if they fall under public domain or not.

Jarkko

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#11

Post by Lammio » 01 Oct 2014, 06:55

OpanaPointer wrote:Sorry, badly written post on my part. The stand is to hold the camera. The document goes on the table below.
Ok. How to make the stand for the camera, then? :D
The document has many pages....

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#12

Post by Mangrove » 01 Oct 2014, 07:22

Fliegende Untertasse wrote: Copyright of any work done during working hours belongs to the employer.
The economical benefit of the work belongs to the employer if the work has been done during working hours AND the work done is part of the employee's normal tasks. See this decision by the Supreme Court regarding a computer software. We can argue if writing manuals is part of the normal tasks of a military officer and if computer software can be compared to any written work.
Fliegende Untertasse wrote:In Hersalos case employer is the state of Finland, making it a public document.
Any document made by a public body in Finland is public (i.e. not secret) after 25 years. However, to the best of my knowledge, a military manual is not a "decision and statement issued by public authorities or other public bodies" on which there is no copyright according to the Copyright Act.

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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#13

Post by OpanaPointer » 01 Oct 2014, 14:05

Lammio wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:Sorry, badly written post on my part. The stand is to hold the camera. The document goes on the table below.
Ok. How to make the stand for the camera, then? :D
The document has many pages....
I'll dig it out when I get home and post a picture or nine.
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#14

Post by OpanaPointer » 01 Oct 2014, 15:51

Wife to the rescue.

The T-joint are screwed together, but the verticals are not, so you can remove them and the whole thing goes flat. I keep mine in a backpack. The whole tripod isn't necessary, the latest gen model had a tripod head mounted on a block of wood.

You'll need a couple of heavy tomes on the lower horizontals to keep it from tipping.
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JTV
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Re: Military training manuals in 1941?

#15

Post by JTV » 01 Oct 2014, 21:47

Mangrove wrote:Any document made by a public body in Finland is public (i.e. not secret) after 25 years.
Might be worth noting that grand majority of Finnish pre World War 2 and wartime military manuals were not classified (secret) to begin with. In fact in this regard most manuals have no markings of what so ever. Minority of the manuals have marking "vain palveluskäyttöön" ("only for official use"), which presumably indicates that the particular manual was not be given to anybody else than military personnel. Very few manuals have SALAINEN (CLASSIFIED) marked into them - these include for example wartime panzerfaust and panzerschreck instuction leaflets, manuals with intelligence gathered about enemy equipment and mine detector m/41 manual.

Jarkko

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