Fuses during the winter war

[John T]

Hi

I am looking for information on Finnish use of two French designed fuses
is SR/35-32/41
is SR/33-23/31

During the Winter war Swedish companies were involved in producing components to these fuzes and then shipped to Sytytin OY for assembly.

As I do not read Finnish and finnish sources are hard to auto translate and especially negations seems hard to understand for Google,
there is a risk of error in when I tried to decipher the translations. And sometimes Google really get lost in translation.
(I post part from TS4 next post below)

As I understands these fuzes where "pressed into service" as the finnish produced "is 33" had reliability problems, especially at temperatures below -25 C.
is the cause known why is 33 failed ?
Grease froze ??

(In Sweden the switch from lathed brass to diecasted zink-based materials in mortar fuses got similar problems.)

Had the SR fuzes above been produced in Finland before 1939 ?


Any help appreciated

John Turesson
Stockholm

[John T]

From Talvisodan historia 4 page 304

especially the blue text in the translation needs human intervention.
And does that part in any way be used to distinguish between

- Brass as a raw material.
- Threaded brass bars
- Fully machined components ready to assemble.

I have a Swedish source listing Finnish outstanding orders in April 1940 and the value of
Steel for shell production and
Brass and other non-ferrous metals are similar.

Sytytin Tuotannossa ilmeni sodan aikana ikävä yllätys. Ennen sotaa oli tykistön ja kranaatinheittimien sytyttimiksi hyväksytty Oy. Sytyttimen kehittämä niin sanottu is. sytytin. Näissä is.34-sytyttimissä havaittiin jo talvella 1938 Perkjärven leirillä sellainen häiriö, että varmistusrasva jäätyi yli 20 °C:n pakkasessa ja ammus jäi suutariksi. Jostakin syystä tämä vika jäi korjaamatta ja näin näitä suutareita ammuttiin talvisodan alkupäivinä. Vian poistamiseksi annettiin joukoille käsky pitää sytyttimet lämpimässä tai lämmittää niitä ennen ammuntaa. Osaksi tästä johtuen ja myös sytytintuotannon laajentamiseksi ryhdyttiin valmistamaan muutamissa tehtaissa käyttövarmuudeltaan heikompaa ja vain herkkänä toimivaa is.SR-sytytintä. Tämänkin sytyttimen tuotantoa rajoitti raaka-aineiden puute, joka saatiin poistettua vasta tammi-helmikuun vaihteessa, jolloin Ruotsista tilattuja sytytin aineita saatiin maahan. Huolimatta ulkomaisesta sytytin tuonnista ei edellä mainituista syistä sytyttimiä saatu riittävästi, mikä vielä pahensi muutoinkin heikkoa tykistön ja kranaatinheitinten ampumatarviketilannetta.
Sytyttimiä valmistuu 1.12.1939-16.3.1940 välisenä aikana seuraavat määrät:
.is.35 131 400 ( 4.2.1940 jälkeen 70 000 kpl)
.SR 35 91 800 (tyk. ) (kaikki 28.1.1940 jälkeen)
.is.34 64 400 (tyk. ) (Joulukuussa 58 100)
.is.33 54 900(krh.) (18.12.1939-27.1.1940)
.SR 3353 160 (krh.) (kaikki 28.1.1940 jälkeen)
.VS 35 39 750
.RC 3226250 (Tavaro)
Kranaatinheittimien sytytinti lanne oli maaliskuussa hyvin kriittinen. Kotimainen teollisuus valmisti tällöin Kranaatinheittimen kranaatteja päivittäin noin 6 000, mutta sytyttimiä vain 1200.
Varikoissa oli 10.3.1940 kaikkiaan 36 000 kranaattia kaikki ilman sytyttimiä, kun taas tilauksia rintamalle oli 43 000 laukausta. Onneksi ulkomailta saapui maaliskuun alussa 157000 laukausta, mutta niistäkin sytyttimet saapuivat vasta 12.3. , koska ne oli kuormattu eri vaunuihin kuin kranaatit ja niiden lähettäminen oli myöhästynyt. Ulkomailta hankituissa laukauksissa seurasivat sytyttimet mukana.

Google translate, with a few direct adjustments

Lighter production occurred during the war, a nasty surprise. Before the war was artillery and mortar lighters accepted Ltd. Developed the so-called detonator is. lighter. The projectile was cold and total failure: These is.34-lighters such a disorder, the navigation fatty froze more than 20 ° C was observed already in the winter 1938 Perkjärven camp. For some reason, this defect was left unrepaired, and thus these shoemakers shot in the early days of the Winter War. Trouble was allowed to remove troops commandment to keep lighters warm or warm them before shooting. Into this reason, and also to expand sytytintuotannon began to produce some factories weaker reliable operation and only sensitive functional is.SR-lighter.

This particular detonator production was limited by the lack of raw materials, which were lifted only in January and early February, when ordered from Sweden lighter materials were imported. Despite the lighter on foreign imports is not the above-mentioned reasons, lighters adequately, which further aggravated the otherwise weak artillery, mortars and ammunition situation.
1.12.1939-16.3.1940 detonators completed during the period following amounts:

.is.35 .. 131 400 (after 2.4.1940 70 000 shares)
.SR 35 .. 91 800 (arty). (After all 01/28/1940)
.is.34 .. 64 400 (arty). (58 100 December)
.is.33 .. 54 900 (mortar). (18.12.1939-27.1.1940)
.SR 33 .. 53 160 (mortar). (After all 01/28/1940)
.VS 35 .. 39 750
.RC 32 .. 26 250 (Tavaro)
Mortar and grenade launcher detonators on the situation in March was very critical. Domestic industry produced then mortar grenades on a daily basis about 6 000, but only 1,200 detonators.
The paddock was 03/10/1940 a total of 36 000 grenades without detonators all, while orders in front of 43 000 shots. Fortunately abroad arrived in early March 157000 shots, but they still carry lighters did not arrive until 12.3. Because they were loaded with various wagons like grenades and their dispatch was delayed. Acquired abroad, followed by a shot lighters included.

Any help apreciated

/John

[John T]

In
Ampumatarvikkeet sotien 1939-1945 aikana Suomessa.
by R Erjola
Availabel online http://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/ta/article/view/47724

Ruotsista saatiin välirauhan aikana 0,5 milj. panostettua hylsyä

It mentions that Sweden delivered 500 000 "Fuse cases" during the interrim peace.
(I am now trying to track those down to the individual shipments)

/John T

[John T]

Grandell in
http://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/ta/article/view/47416

This translation makes sense on "a high level"

But still what means sytytinaineita?
Material in general ?

Jotta ammussorvaamojen valmistamat samantyyppiset ammuskuoret
olisi saatu ballistisilta ominaisuuksiltaan mahdollisimman
yhtäläisiksi, olisi pitänyt saada työtavat sekä työ- ja mittavälineet
mahdollisimman yhdenmukaisiksi näissä tehtaissa. Tähän tarkoitukseen
olisi kuitenkin tarvittu elin, joka puuttui, nimittäin sellainen
ammussorvaamo, joka olisi toiminut tämän alan koe- ja koulutuslaitoksena
ja joka siten olisi pystynyt avustamaan näitä tehtaita
kuorten koneistuksen käyntiinpanossa sekä valvomaan ja
ohjaamaan itse koneistusta. Perushankintaohjelmaan oli kylläkin
sisällytetty varoja tällaista sorvaamoa varten, mutta tätä suunnitelmaa
ei oltu voitu toteuttaa. Näin ollen kukin tehdas suunnitteli
valmistusmenetelmät sekä työ- ja mittavälineet parhaaksi katsomallaan
tavalla. Seurauksena tästä oli se mitä oli pelätty: eri tehtaiden
valmistamat ammuskuoret olivat ballistisilta ominaisuuksiltaan
toisistaan poikkeavia.
Tykistön ja kranaatinheittimistön sytyttimiksi oli monivaiheisten
kokeilujen jälkeen hyväksytty käyttöön Oy Sytyttimen
kehittämät nk IS-sytyttimet. Ne olivat osoittautuneet varmoiksi
putki- ja varhaisräjähdysvaaraa silmälläpitäen ja niitä voitiin käyttää
herkkinä, herkkähidasteisina ja jäykkinä. Näiden sytyttimien
riittävän tuotannon aikaansaamiseksi oli perushankintaohjelmaan
sisällytetty huomattava määrä automaatti- ja revolverisorveja.
Sodan alettua saatiin kuitenkin kokea huolestuttava yllätys,
josta eräitä merkkejä oli havaittu jo YH:n aikana: IS-sytyttimien
toiminnassa oli häiriöitä, joiden selvittäminen vaati varsin pitkän
ajan. Kun lisäksi vain muutama kappale niiden valmistukseen
tilatuista koneista oli saatu maahan, oli pakko kiireesti suunnitella
hätäratkaisu. Valinta kohdistui Schneider-Remondy-malliseen
sytyttimeen, jonka valmistus oli mahdollinen maassa löytyvillä
työstökoneilla ja jonka tyyppisiä sytyttimiä oli jo valmistettukin
SuomessB:. Tämä sytytin toimi tosin vain herkkänä ja - mikä oli
varsin huolestuttavaa - sen käyttövannuus oli IS-sytyttimeen
verrattuna huono. Kun muuta valintaa ei kuitenkaan ollut, ruvettiin
kiireesti sijoittamaan näiden nk SR-sytyttimien tilauksia teol


Tuotantoa rajoitti kuitenkin raaka-aineiden puute. Tilanne
helpottui vasta tammi-helmikuun vaihteessa v 1940, kun
sodan ensi päivinä Ruotsista tilattuja sytytinaineita rupesi tulemaan.
Vaikka lisäksi Oy Sytytin, voitettuaan lopulta pahimmat
vaikeudet, oli myös valmistanut IS-sytyttimiä, ei sytytinvalmistusta
kuitenkaan saatu nostetuksi kuorituotannon tasolle talvisodassa.
Tämä oli eräänä syynä siihen, että kotimaasta saatujen
laukausten määrä jäi valmistettuja ammuskuorimääriä pienemmäksi.
Talvisodan antamien katkerien opetusten perusteella kiinnitettiin
sotien väliaikana erityistä huomiota tykistönsytyttimien tyyppikysymykseen
ja valmistusmahdollisuuksiin. Tutkimusten tuloksena
oli, että jatkosodan alussa hankittiin Saksasta RheinmetallBorsig-
sytyttimen valmistuslisenssi, mikä sytytin vastasi sen ajan
vaatimuksia. Valmistuksesta huolehti Valtion Sytytintehdas.
Raaka-aineiden saantivaikeud:et tuottivat kuitenkin tälle tehtaalle
pettymyksiä toinen toisensa jälkeen. Sytyttimen runko-osan
valmistusta varten tarvittiin messinkiä. Tätä ei kuitenkaan saatu
riittävästi, jonka vuoksi runko-osan valmistus suunniteltiin tapahtuvaksi
sinkistä. Sitä varten piti hankkia useita painevalukoneita.
Kun' koneet oli saatu ja valmistus piti panna käyntiin, todettiin
kuitenkin sellaisia teknillisiä vaikeuksia, että' menetelmästä oli
luovuttava. Silloin muutettiin vielä kerran tuotantoprosessi ja
suoritettiin vielä kerran konetäydennystä, tällä kertaa lähtöaineena
teräs. Tähän vastoinkäymisten sarjaan liittyi pari muutakin
teknillistä laatua olevaa vaikeutta. Kovasti siis yritettiin,
mutta tulos, n 200.000 kpl RMB-sytytintä koko jatkosodan aikana,
oli vaatimaton verrattuna siihen määrään tykistön sytyttimiä, joka
kaiken kaikkiaan valmistettiin sotien aikana. Tämä määrä oli n
6.120.000 kpl, joista pääosa, n 4.000.000 kpl, oli SR-sytyttimiä. Voidaan
täten sanoa, että tykistömme toiminta oli koko pitkän sotaajan
hätäsyttymien varassa. Tämä sytytin osoittautui lopultakin
paljon varmemmaksi kuin mitä luultiin silloin, kun sen sUjatuotanto
aloitettiin. Asiaa valaisee ehkä parhaiten jatkosodan putkiräjähdystilasto

Translates to

In order to ammussorvaamojen manufactured by the same types of ammunition shells
would have been ballistic characteristics as possible
similarly experienced, should have obtained work habits and work and measuring instruments
as uniform as possible in these factories. For this purpose
would, however, need a body that was missing, namely a
ammussorvaamo, which would have served as a test and training institution in this field
and which will therefore be able to assist in these plants
shells machining on start and to monitor and
to control the machining process itself. Standard Contract program was indeed
included funds for such Sorvaamo, but this plan
had not been carried out. Thus, each plant designed
manufacturing methods and working and measuring instruments as it sees
manner. As a result, it was what he had feared: the different plants
manufactured ammunition shells were ballistic characteristics
different from each other.
Artillery and mortar lighters was multistage
After experimenting approved for use in the starter Ltd
developed the so-called IS-lighters. They were proven safe
tube and varhaisräjähdysvaaraa view and could be used
sensitive, herkkähidasteisina and rigid. These lighters
to provide sufficient production was based acquisition program
included a considerable number of automatic and revolverisorveja.
War broke out were, however, experience a disturbing surprise,
where some of the signs had already been found YH: During IS-lighters
operation was interference, which the Clearing demanding for quite a long
for. In addition, only a few pieces for their manufacture
the ordered aircraft had been ground, was forced to urgently plan
an emergency solution. The selection focused on the Schneider Remondy model of
lighter, the preparation of which was made possible by the country which are located
machine tools and which types of lighters was has already been produced
SuomessB :. This lighter work but only a sensitive and - what was the
quite worrying - it was käyttövannuus IS-lighter
compared to the poor. When you had no other choice, however, people began to
urgent need to invest in these so-called SR-lighters orders for industry

However, production was limited by the lack of raw materials. Situation
easier for the period January-February 1940, when the
the first days of the war ordered from Sweden lighter materials began to come.
In addition, although Ltd Lighter, after winning in the end the worst
Difficulties were also manufactured by the IS-lighters, there sytytinvalmistusta
However, from the crust to have been brought production to a level in the Winter War.
This was one reason for the fact that from the home country
Number of shots missed the projectile shell made of smaller amounts.
Based on the teachings given by the bitter Winter War was paid
wars during the interim period, special attention tykistönsytyttimien type of question
and manufacturing opportunities. Result of the studies
was that at the beginning of the Continuation War were purchased from Germany RheinmetallBorsig-
the lighter manufacturing license, which is lighter corresponded to the time
requirements. From manufacturing to ensure the State Sytytintehdas.
Raw materials saantivaikeud: You do not, however, produced to this factory
disappointment after another. The lighter body part
needed for the production of brass. However, this could not be
sufficient for which the body maker planned to take place
zinc. To that end, had to procure a number of die-casting machines.
When 'equipment had been received, and manufacturing had to be started, it was found
However, such technical difficulties that 'the method of
abandoned. Then was changed once again to the production process and
was carried out once the machine replenishment, this time as a starting material
steel. This series of adversity joined a couple of other
the quality of technical difficulty. Greatly therefore attempted
but the result, of the 200,000 shares of RMB-lighters throughout the Continuation War,
was modest compared to the amount of artillery detonators, which
Overall, prepared during the wars. This amount of n
6.12 million pieces, most of which, of 4,000,000 units, the SR-lighters. It can be
Thus to say that the artillery activity throughout this long period of war
dependent on hätäsyttymien. This turned out to be lighter at last
much more confident than what we thought when it sUjatuotanto
was started. The matter is perhaps best illustrates the Continuation War pipeline explosion statistics

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi JT

is the cause known why is 33 failed ?
Grease froze ??

According to Talvisodan Historia, yes.

varmistusrasva jäätyi yli 20 °C:n pakkasessa

the navigation fatty froze more than 20 ° C

Varmistusrasva? ??? safety grease??? froze under -20 ° C degrees
Varmistusrasva or Valmistusrasva??? (grease left from production)

Had the SR fuzes above been produced in Finland before 1939 ?

According to Erjola, yes (p. 167) by Valtion Ammuslataamo.

Regards, JT

[Vaeltaja]

In
Ampumatarvikkeet sotien 1939-1945 aikana Suomessa.
by R Erjola
Availabel online http://ojs.tsv.fi/index.php/ta/article/view/47724

Ruotsista saatiin välirauhan aikana 0,5 milj. panostettua hylsyä

It mentions that Sweden delivered 500 000 "Fuse cases" during the interrim peace.
(I am now trying to track those down to the individual shipments)

/John T

Ain't 'fuse' the same as 'sytytin'? I mean 'panostettu hylsy' is not quite the same. It sounds more like to me that they were preloaded casings in this case for a mortar.

[Seppo Koivisto]

Ruotsista saatiin välirauhan aikana 0,5 milj. panostettua hylsyä

I think panostettu hylsy here is the propellant cartridge for a mortar bomb.

[Juha Tompuri]

Raw material to start with:

A nasty surprise occurred at the fuse production during the war. Before the war the so called is. fuse of Oy Sytytin had been accepted as artillery and mortar fuse. Already on winter 1938 at Perkjärvi (artillery, JT) camp had been noticed a troube: the safety (???) grease froze under -20 °C degrees conditions and the projectile became a dud. For some reason, this flaw was left unfixed and so these duds were shot during the early days of Winter War. For to fix the problem, the troops were instructed to keep the fuses at warm or to warm them before shooting. Partly because of this and also for to expand the fuse production, manufacturing of the less reliable and only as sensitive working is.SR fuse was started at some factories.The production of this fuse too, was limited by the lack of raw materials. The problem was solved not until late January - early February when the the Sweden ordered material for fuses were delivered to Finland.
Despite the foreign fuse import, because of the above-mentioned reasons, the fuse delivery was not enough. That worsened the already bad artillery and mortar ammo situation.


The number of fuses produced between 1.12.1939-16.3.1940

.is.35 .. 131 400 (after 2.4.1940 70 000 pieces)
.SR 35 .. 91 800 (arty). ( all after 01/28/1940)
.is.34 .. 64 400 (arty). (58 100 during December)
.is.33 .. 54 900 (mortar). (18.12.1939-27.1.1940)
.SR 33 .. 53 160 (mortar). ( all after 01/28/1940)
.VS 35 .. 39 750
.RC 32 .. 26 250 (Tavaro)

Mortar fuse situation in March was very critical. The domestic daily mortar grenade production was about 6000, but only 1200 fuses.
There were 36 000 grenades at the depots 03/10/1940, but all without detonators, while orders from the front were 43 000 shots.

Fortunately 157000 shots arrived in early March from abroad , but the fuses arrived not until 12.3. because they were loaded at different railroad carriages than the grenades and their delivery was delayed. The shots acquired from abroad included the fuses.

Finnish ABC:
Fuse = sytytin
Zippo (...or any cigarette lighter) = sytytin
Shoemaker = suutari
A dud (explosive) = suutari


Regards, JT

[Juha Tompuri]

I think panostettu hylsy here is the propellant cartridge for a mortar bomb.

Yep.

Regards, Juha

[John T]

varmistusrasva jäätyi yli 20 °C:n pakkasessa

the navigation fatty froze more than 20 ° C

Varmistusrasva? ??? safety grease??? froze under -20 ° C degrees
Varmistusrasva or Valmistusrasva??? (grease left from production)

Thanks Juha
Varmistusrasva is it.

Many moons ago, like some 154 (yepp in year 2003)
On an now defunct forum (Nordic wars)
You made an list of pages from TS4 regarding Swedish involvement in the winter war and I still haven't checked it all up.



Thanks
/John

[John T]

I think panostettu hylsy here is the propellant cartridge for a mortar bomb.

Yep.

Regards, Juha

Is it the leftmost charges in the picture or the shotgun like ignition cartridge with primer on the right side ?
that is "Lisäpanokset" and "Peruspanokset" ?

Initially I did not understood why shotgun cartridges without lead balls would be considered military supplies when transferred to Finland,
But I've learned it was used as the primer.

AB Nitroglycerin filed their export permit on the 30 January 1940 for 500 000 ignition cartridges and 3 000 000 charges.

I mean 'panostettu hylsy' is not quite the same. It sounds more like to me that they were preloaded casings in this case for a mortar.

The Swedish technicians seems to loved the word "Hylsa"
IIRC, it's used in five (5) different parts of a Swedish mortar fuse.


Thanks All for your help.

/John

[JTV]

Is it the leftmost charges in the picture or the shotgun like ignition cartridge with primer on the right side ?
that is "Lisäpanokset" and "Peruspanokset" ?

The little known fact is that the Finnish basic propellant charge (peruspanos) for 81-mm mortars was in fact loaded to normal 12-gauge shotgun shell(*). However the wartime additional propellant charges (lisäpanokset) for 81-mm mortar were not U-shaped - additional propellant charges of that shape were used only with 120-mm mortars at that time. Attached is page from wartime Finnish infantry ammunition manual Jalkaväen ampumatarvikkeet I that shows what the Finnish wartime additional propellant charges for 81-mm mortars actually looked like.

Basic propellant charge had 8 grams of gunpowder and each additional propellant charge 6.5 grams.

Jarkko

(*) Basic propellant charges used by other countries for 81-mm mortars were apparently also quite close in shape & size and the original basic propellant charge for Stokes-mortar (ancestor of Brandt-Stokes mortar and practically all 81-mm mortars introduced since) was apparently also packed to 12-gauge shotgun shell, but they seem to have certain level of variation from one country to another.

[John T]

An Anti tank mines TS4 page 319

Kun isku sytyttimien jousista ja nalleista oli kova puute, tuotiin niitä lentokoneilla Ruotsista.

When the impactor springs lighters, and fuses was a severe shortage, brought them on airplanes in Sweden

Are we talking about detonators here ?

Google gives me no real clue

Cheers
/John

[John T]

Attached is page from wartime Finnish infantry ammunition manual Jalkaväen ampumatarvikkeet I that shows what the Finnish wartime additional propellant charges for 81-mm mortars actually looked like.

Thanks Jarkko

Are they stacked in front of the basic propellant charge?

/John

[peeved]

An Anti tank mines TS4 page 319

Kun isku sytyttimien jousista ja nalleista oli kova puute, tuotiin niitä lentokoneilla Ruotsista.

When the impactor springs lighters, and fuses was a severe shortage, brought them on airplanes in Sweden

Are we talking about detonators here ?

IMO that passage is about springs and detonators to AT mine impact fuses (although pressure fuse might be a more current term).

Markus