Finnish 122mm howitzers

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#46

Post by kluz » 07 Oct 2016, 22:59

Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:This is just a guess.
Partly yes.
But I think this is a fact:
The contract doesn't rule out either of the howitzer types.
kluz wrote: Why did you exclude the existence of the second contract?
What second contract?
The contract could be not one, but two, three.. Why not?
But more interesting - how many guns were repaired at all and their tube numbers.
Regards, Igor

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#47

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Oct 2016, 23:21

kluz wrote:The contract could be not one, but two, three.. Why not?
I haven't excluded any other documets
kluz wrote:But more interesting - how many guns were repaired at all and their tube numbers.
According to the JT document at the 20's , the initial order was eight barrels.


According your photo bellow, there were more.
And there you know at least one repaired barrel number:
Attachments
122H09relined.jpg
122H09relined.jpg (75.05 KiB) Viewed 924 times


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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#48

Post by kluz » 07 Oct 2016, 23:45

Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:The contract could be not one, but two, three.. Why not?
I haven't excluded any other documets
OK, let's stop on it.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:But more interesting - how many guns were repaired at all and their tube numbers.
According to the JT document at the 20's , the initial order was eight barrels.

According your photo bellow, there were more.
And there you know at least one repaired barrel number:
I can name the second re-tubed howitzer, which is situated inside the Tykistomuseo hall (the only with the muzzle brake). It also has "PUTKITETTU 1933" markings.
Regards, Igor

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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#49

Post by John T » 08 Oct 2016, 00:13

kluz wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:This is just a guess.
Partly yes.
But I think this is a fact:
The contract doesn't rule out either of the howitzer types.
kluz wrote: Why did you exclude the existence of the second contract?
What second contract?
The contract could be not one, but two, three.. Why not?
But more interesting - how many guns were repaired at all and their tube numbers.
I have only found these two contracts with Bofors , 8 + 5 guns.


The other documents say little useful, most are legal stuff.

Cheers
/John

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#50

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Oct 2016, 00:19

kluz wrote:I can name the second re-tubed howitzer, which is situated inside the Tykistomuseo hall (the only with the muzzle brake). It also has "PUTKITETTU 1933" markings.
Thanks.
The "putkitettu" also means the process of boring out the interior of the barrel of the weapon/ gun and inserting a (new) liner at the weapon/gun.

Regards, Juha

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#51

Post by kluz » 08 Oct 2016, 00:23

John T wrote:
I have only found these two contracts with Bofors , 8 + 5 guns.

The other documents say little useful, most are legal stuff.

Cheers
/John
OK, thank you, John.
By the way, have you found any documets relating to weapons deliveries to the Soviet Union by Bofors. I've found some. And it is poorly studied topic yet.
Regards, Igor

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#52

Post by kluz » 08 Oct 2016, 00:35

Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:I can name the second re-tubed howitzer, which is situated inside the Tykistomuseo hall (the only with the muzzle brake). It also has "PUTKITETTU 1933" markings.
Thanks.
The "putkitettu" also means the process of boring out the interior of the barrel of the weapon/ gun and inserting a (new) liner at the weapon/gun.
Not always, Juha. Look at my photo once more. There is no any liner at all. They replace the tube (Seelenrohr = sisusputki) entirely. Exactly this howitzer has "PUTKITETTU 1933" markings.

Image
Regards, Igor

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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#53

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Oct 2016, 07:53

kluz wrote:
Not always, Juha.
Yes, not always.
But also.

Regards, Juha

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#54

Post by kluz » 08 Oct 2016, 09:10

Juha Tompuri wrote:
kluz wrote:
Not always, Juha.
Yes, not always.
But also.
Nice to see an equally meticulous opponent. :) Yes, and also.
Regards, Igor

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#55

Post by kluz » 09 Oct 2016, 22:51

Hi,
anybody knows which Finnish markings indicate the upgrde 122 H/09-40 howitzer?
Soviet 122mm howitzers M1909-37 must have markings УДЛИНЕННАЯ КАМОРА (elongate chamber) both on the tube and on the breech.
Regards, Igor

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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#56

Post by Esa Muikku » 09 Oct 2016, 23:52

Igor, That's a very good question.

Can you point out if any other Soviet modifications were done for the 09-37 than the extended chamber? Something in the carriage or the elevation/traverse mechanisms?

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#57

Post by kluz » 10 Oct 2016, 00:11

Esa Muikku wrote:Igor, That's a very good question.

Can you point out if any other Soviet modifications were done for the 09-37 than the extended chamber? Something in the carriage or the elevation/traverse mechanisms?
Yes, Esa, I can do that right now. But I'll try to give some pictures to show these modifications. So, please, wait for a while
Regards, Igor

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#58

Post by kluz » 10 Oct 2016, 21:22

Esa Muikku wrote:Igor, That's a very good question.
And what about the answer?
Esa Muikku wrote:Can you point out if any other Soviet modifications were done for the 09-37 than the extended chamber? Something in the carriage or the elevation/traverse mechanisms?
According to the 122mm howitzer M1909/37 manual it has the following design features, which differs it from the previous model. We will study them step by step. So, let's start.
1. The chamber has extended length and its volume adjusted to the size of the 122mm howitzer M1910/30 chamber. To distinguish, externally absolutely identical barrels of these two type howitzers (M1909 and M1909/37), the upgraded howitzers have special markings УДЛИНЕННАЯ КАМОРА (elongate chamber) on the upper part of the barrel casing and on the breech.
el_chamber.jpg
Crop of the photo by Dmitry Derevyankin www.dishmodels.ru
Regards, Igor

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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#59

Post by Esa Muikku » 10 Oct 2016, 21:59

ID from the guns at Suomenkasarmi in Hämeenlinna:

Left gun:
- barrel: No 3940/1911
- breech block: A No 206.M
- carriage: Finnish type plate: 122 H 09-30, No 17/1938

Center gun:
- barrel: No 5140/1914, УДЛИНЕННАЯ КАМОРА
- breech block: A No 357.M
- carriage: Finnish type plate: 122 H 09-30, No 494/1915

Right gun:
- barrel: No 5255/1915, УДЛИНЕННАЯ КАМОРА
- breech block: A No 387.M
- carriage: Finnish type plate: 122 H 09-29, No 540/1910

All barrels are made by Putilov factory and they have the conical ring at the muzzle. Text "УДЛИНЕННАЯ КАМОРА" is barely visible on two guns (in two places). It might be also on the third one, but because the paint layer is guite thick, it is not visible. None of the barrels have PUTKITETTU markings, although they also might be hidden under several paint layers. In technical and structural details the guns are very identical. As you can see, the Finnish carriage type plates seem to have very strange (false) ID data.

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kluz
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Re: Finnish 122mm howitzers

#60

Post by kluz » 10 Oct 2016, 22:21

Esa Muikku wrote:ID from the guns at Suomenkasarmi in Hämeenlinna:
Thank you, Esa, your information is very useful. One of the Tykkistomuseo 122 H/09-30 howitzers also has strange misprint.
3550.jpg
Regards, Igor

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