About foreign aid to Finland during the Winter War

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Jarkko Hietala
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#46

Post by Jarkko Hietala » 11 May 2006, 17:09

Finland captured quite a lot Russian 7.62 mm MOSIN-NAGANT M1891 RIFLE (over 200 000) during winter war so Finland had rifles to arm all troops with some combat ability so those swedish Rifles was not needed anymore at end of winter war.

Finnish guerilla warfare added to Russian Soviet arrogance and incompetence carried the day back them.

Russian's gave Finnish army more material aid than any country from Europe. Russia was only country that donated hundreds of tanks, trucks, heavy field guns and huge piles of small arms witch were all put in good use.

Most of European countries promised a lot in keynote address but actually nothing ever arrived a Finland and mostly what arrived was outdated WW 1 weaponry. Sweden was propably only country that aid had some real strategic help.

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Stellan Bojerud
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Howitzers

#47

Post by Stellan Bojerud » 12 May 2006, 08:26

I took the figures from Wangel, "Sveriges Militära Beredskap 1939-1945", Köping 1982. That book is however not so exact as wanted.

Now I got interested in the 105 mm Howitzers you mention. They were in fact not m/1910 but m/1924. You write that one was bought back for the Finnish Artillery Museum. But did they get a m/24 or a m/10? Only an expert can see the difference between a m/10 and a m/24.

There were only four (4) 10,5 cm bergshaubits m/24 in the Swedish Army, i e 105 mm Mountain Howitzer m/1924. These four were used in Finland on the Petsamo front. Back to Sweden 1944. Last used by Swedish Army 1961.

Basically a Howitzer m/24 is a m/10 altered to be possible to divide in parts. Two (No 147-148) were assembled from spare parts.


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Harri
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Re: Howitzers

#48

Post by Harri » 12 May 2006, 16:25

Stellan Bojerud wrote:Now I got interested in the 105 mm Howitzers you mention. They were in fact not m/1910 but m/1924. You write that one was bought back for the Finnish Artillery Museum. But did they get a m/24 or a m/10? Only an expert can see the difference between a m/10 and a m/24.
There were only four (4) 10,5 cm bergshaubits m/24 in the Swedish Army, i e 105 mm Mountain Howitzer m/1924. These four were used in Finland on the Petsamo front. Back to Sweden 1944. Last used by Swedish Army 1961.
Basically a Howitzer m/24 is a m/10 altered to be possible to divide in parts. Two (No 147-148) were assembled from spare parts.
These guns were designated in Finland as 105 VH/10 (also 105 VH/22 and 105 VH/10/22 has been used) in which VH means "mountain cannon". According to "Field Guns in Finland 1918 - 1995" by J. Paulaharju these Bofors made guns were originally called as "10,5 cm materiel M/10" and accepted in use in Sweden on 6.6.1912. Guns although had a designation M/22 (not 24) when delivered to Finland. German designation for these guns was 10,5 cm Gebirgshaubitze L/12.

During the Winter War these four guns delivered on 9.1.1940 at Tornio were in 6th Battery / Field Artillery Regiment 9 (6./KTR 9) which although in February replaced them with captured Soviet regiment cannons (76 RK/27) probably because they had shot 3.787 of the 4.000 shots. As far as I know battery operated indepently at Salla front led by Lt. I. Heimo. On 8.2.1940 battery was attached to a newly formed (24.1.1940) I Artillery Battalion / Field Artillery Regiment 22 (I/KTR 22) which was moved to Bay of Viborg by 5.3.1940 without its 2nd Battery (my records don't tell if it was the former 6./KTR 9 which remained at Salla but it is possible).

During the Continuation War guns were in depot and were sold back to Sweden in 1944.

Techical data:
Calibre: 105 mm
Length of barrel: 1.680 mm / 12 cal.
Weight of a shot: 14 kg
Muzzle velocity: 304 m/s
Range: 7.6 km
Combat weight: 1.080 kg

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Hanski
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#49

Post by Hanski » 19 May 2007, 19:17

Grendel-B wrote: VL Pyörremyrsky was the most promising plane, but it was never needed as there was enough Messerschmitt 109s to go around, so a locally built replacement fighter was never really needed.
Just to show how Pyörremyrsky looks like, here is a surviving aircraft at the Central Finland Aviation Museum in Tikkakoski.
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Hanski
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#50

Post by Hanski » 19 May 2007, 19:32

Pyörremyrsky from another angle.
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OldBraggs
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#51

Post by OldBraggs » 23 May 2007, 07:31

leandros wrote:
JTV wrote:I would probably find a few more mistakes in that with some more digging, but unfortunately I don't have time at the moment, so I have leave that to others. I am now pretty much convinced that the information about English landmines was false.

Jarkko
Lieutenant Malcolm Munthe, Gordon Highlanders, was sent to Finland with some experimental mines and actually took part in a combat operation (ref. his memoirs). His official reason for being in Northern Finland was to oversee the arrival of British equipment and British volunteers.

In a meeting (8 January 1940) between Mannerheim and Brigadier-General Christopher George Ling, C.B., D.S.O., M.C., there was discussion of the supplies being sent from Britain and among them was "vibro-mines".

They discussed Finland's needs (aircraft and artillery were high on the list) and what Britain could supply. Mannerheim also informed Ling that half of the equipment already sent from Britain had been taken by the Swedish Volunteers in Northern Finland. This is supported by comments made by Munthe in his memoirs.

I have also located a list of material sent in one shipment (23 January 1940) and included are a range of items, eg. Light Machine Guns (Lewis), 3 inch Mortars, Anti-Tank Rifles, Very Pistols, Field Telephones, Bell Tents, Small Arms Ammunitions, Mortar Rounds, Anti-Aircraft Ammunition, Field Stoves, Anti-Gas Capes, Saddles and Horse Blankets, etc.

Steve

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#52

Post by Tuco » 25 May 2007, 02:12

Jarkko Hietala wrote:Finland captured quite a lot Russian 7.62 mm MOSIN-NAGANT M1891 RIFLE (over 200 000) during winter war so Finland had rifles to arm all troops with some combat ability so those swedish Rifles was not needed anymore at end of winter war.

Finnish guerilla warfare added to Russian Soviet arrogance and incompetence carried the day back them.

Russian's gave Finnish army more material aid than any country from Europe. Russia was only country that donated hundreds of tanks, trucks, heavy field guns and huge piles of small arms witch were all put in good use.

Most of European countries promised a lot in keynote address but actually nothing ever arrived a Finland and mostly what arrived was outdated WW 1 weaponry. Sweden was propably only country that aid had some real strategic help.
http://mosinnagant.net/FinnishMosinNagantNumbers.asp Some numbers of Finnish produced rifles.
http://mosinnagant.net/FinlandArmsOther.asp A listing of some (not all) of the small arms in Finland.

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Tuco
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#53

Post by Tuco » 25 May 2007, 02:16

A number of the Swedish Mausers went back to Sweden after the war as well. Not sure of the time frame but I think it was in the early 1950's

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JTV
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#54

Post by JTV » 25 May 2007, 05:33

Tuco wrote:A number of the Swedish Mausers went back to Sweden after the war as well. Not sure of the time frame but I think it was in the early 1950's
Palokangas says in his books that this happened 1951 - 1953. That was the time when Finnish military got rid of Swedish Mauser rifles. Most probably went to Sweden, but some might have been sold elsewhere tool

Jarkko

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JTV
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#55

Post by JTV » 25 May 2007, 05:55

OldBraggs wrote:
leandros wrote:
JTV wrote:I would probably find a few more mistakes in that with some more digging, but unfortunately I don't have time at the moment, so I have leave that to others. I am now pretty much convinced that the information about English landmines was false.

Jarkko
Lieutenant Malcolm Munthe, Gordon Highlanders, was sent to Finland with some experimental mines and actually took part in a combat operation (ref. his memoirs). His official reason for being in Northern Finland was to oversee the arrival of British equipment and British volunteers.

In a meeting (8 January 1940) between Mannerheim and Brigadier-General Christopher George Ling, C.B., D.S.O., M.C., there was discussion of the supplies being sent from Britain and among them was "vibro-mines".

They discussed Finland's needs (aircraft and artillery were high on the list) and what Britain could supply. Mannerheim also informed Ling that half of the equipment already sent from Britain had been taken by the Swedish Volunteers in Northern Finland. This is supported by comments made by Munthe in his memoirs.

I have also located a list of material sent in one shipment (23 January 1940) and included are a range of items, eg. Light Machine Guns (Lewis), 3 inch Mortars, Anti-Tank Rifles, Very Pistols, Field Telephones, Bell Tents, Small Arms Ammunitions, Mortar Rounds, Anti-Aircraft Ammunition, Field Stoves, Anti-Gas Capes, Saddles and Horse Blankets, etc.

Steve
Wow, this is interesting. I have gone through all landmine manuals published during the war and some documents from of the Department of Engineers (Pioneeriosasto) in Finnish Armed Forces HQ (Päämaja), but I have not seen anything about British landmines in Finnish use. The number of Boys antitank-rifles sent to Finland should be 100 (half of these went to "SFK" volunteer unit). In addition to these Finland bought also 100 old WW1-era 13-mm Mauser at-rifles from GB in spring of 1940 (these were never issued for combat).

Very pistols are more commonly known as flair guns. What number does it give to 3-inch mortars delivered to Finland? Finnish mortars manual from year 1942 contains "81 Krh/39" (81-mm mortar model 1939) - a British mortar, which was used only for training use due to its small numbers and ammunition incompatible with other 81-mm mortars in Finnish use.

Attached is photo of "81 Krh/39".

Jarkko
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John T
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#56

Post by John T » 22 Sep 2007, 23:05

OldBraggs wrote:
JTV wrote:I would probably find a few more mistakes in that with some more digging, but unfortunately I don't have time at the moment, so I have leave that to others. I am now pretty much convinced that the information about English landmines was false.

Jarkko
Lieutenant Malcolm Munthe, Gordon Highlanders, was sent to Finland with some experimental mines and actually took part in a combat operation (ref. his memoirs). His official reason for being in Northern Finland was to oversee the arrival of British equipment and British volunteers.

In a meeting (8 January 1940) between Mannerheim and Brigadier-General Christopher George Ling, C.B., D.S.O., M.C., there was discussion of the supplies being sent from Britain and among them was "vibro-mines".

They discussed Finland's needs (aircraft and artillery were high on the list) and what Britain could supply. Mannerheim also informed Ling that half of the equipment already sent from Britain had been taken by the Swedish Volunteers in Northern Finland. This is supported by comments made by Munthe in his memoirs.

I have also located a list of material sent in one shipment (23 January 1940) and included are a range of items, eg. Light Machine Guns (Lewis), 3 inch Mortars, Anti-Tank Rifles, Very Pistols, Field Telephones, Bell Tents, Small Arms Ammunitions, Mortar Rounds, Anti-Aircraft Ammunition, Field Stoves, Anti-Gas Capes, Saddles and Horse Blankets, etc.

Steve
One request for transit license from Finnish embassy in Stockholm lists 600 mines with an ETA of January 2 1940 to Bergen, Norway with transit Charlottenberg - Haparanda (same shipment as 12 114mm Howitzers)
The document makes some note that the list of equipment is provisional.

But is followed by a not on the 3 that 20 railroad waggons have been dispatched from Bergen. One of the waggons where sent express (as part of a passenger train) Directly to Col.Sutton-Pratt in Stockholm.
(could it been Boys guns?)


Then I have a much fuzzier info on Munthe, according to the Swdish volunteers chaplain Munthe brought with him AT-mines that "looked like large cheeses" (Quoted in Fontanders de mörka åren)

Cheers
/John T

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: About foreign aid to Finland during the Winter War

#57

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Mar 2009, 15:42

Here a photo of the "British cheese".
From Miehikkälä engineer museum http://www.salpakeskus.fi/index.php?l=3&path=214,0,0

Regards, Juha
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phylo_roadking
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Re: About foreign aid to Finland during the Winter War

#58

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Mar 2009, 17:47

Malcolm Munthe was actually SOE by the time he was sent to Finland, "after a hectic course in explosives" according to his obituary. That doesn't look like any of the WWII British "production" G.S. or E.P. antitank mines and fits none of the descriptions of the A.P. or A.P. Shrapnel mines (pics of British mines are few and far between); if its British and arrived with Munthe it's more likely one of the SOE munition types. I leant out my copy of MRD Foot's SOE ....and it never returned (maybe it was "turned" LOL), so I have no diagrams for those.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Briti ... k_mine.jpg

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12318626/Mine ... -No-401943

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Harri
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Re: About foreign aid to Finland during the Winter War

#59

Post by Harri » 06 Mar 2009, 18:07

Interesting.

Finns received a total of 60.000 pcs of British AT mines called initially "Hyökkäysvaunumiina m/40 (engl.)" and later "Panssarimiina m/40 (engl.)" of which 5.000 arrived already in January 1940 unlike the Finnish text tells (perhaps these too were given to Swedish volunteer SFK ?). This appears to be the one in Juha's photo.

(There was also German "Panssarimiina m/40 (saks.)" (Tellermine 35). They were obtained later in 1940 and their total number was 150.000 pcs.)

But were any Italian, Hungarian or Swedish AT or anti-personnel mines obtained during the Winter War?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: About foreign aid to Finland during the Winter War

#60

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Mar 2009, 19:23

What is the exact translation into English of Hyökkäysvaunumiina and Panssarimiina?

EDIT: while searching around I came across this http://translate.google.co.uk/translate ... f%26sa%3DN
PANSSARIMIINA m/40 (antitank-mine m/40): Only one of Finnish sources claims that this mine even existed. None of the Finnish military manuals even mention it. None of the Finnish military manuals even mention it. So, either it didn't exist or it may have been prototype, which never saw mass-production. So, either it did not exist or it may have been prototype, which never saw mass-production. Supposedly it had disc-shaped circular sheet metal body, its diameter was 16 cm and height 14 cm. Supposedly it had disc-shaped circular sheet metal body, its diameter was 16 cm and height 14 cm. This supposed mine weight 4.2-kg, which included 3.2-kg explosive charge. This is supposed mine-weight 4.2 kg, which included 3.2-kg explosive charge. The claimed fuse was typical pressure activated type with activation pressure of 150-kg. The claimed was typical pressure activated fuse type with activation pressure of 150-kg.
How accurate is that comment?

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