Babies flew in great arcs through the air

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little grey rabbit
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Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#1

Post by little grey rabbit » 17 Apr 2014, 05:49

Found this extraordinary quote in a translation of Christian Hartmann's Operation Barbarossa: Nazi Germany's War in the East 1941-1945
page 87
"Babies flew in great arcs through the air and we blasted them out of the sky before they could drop into the ditch or the water. Away with it, this brood that has plunged all of Europe into war....' These were the words a police secretary from Vienna wrote home in October 1941.
Well, whether it was a police secretary or someone else they certainly had a very vivid turn on phrase. I fear I would have been no good as an Einsatzgruppen soldier, I could barely throw a baby 1 meter into the air, let alone manage great arcs.

Hartmann's book has no footnotes, I have not heard this quote before. Does anyone know the original and how it came to light?

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Skyderick
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#2

Post by Skyderick » 17 Apr 2014, 06:31

Hi Little Grey Rabbit
I don't know about this particular quote, but there are several accounts of babies and children being thrown in the air and shot by Lithuanian soldiers, having their heads bashed against walls or buried alive to spare a bullet. I will elaborate once I'm back from work.
http://www.lithuanianjews.org.il/HTMLs/ ... BSS6=13971
Last edited by Skyderick on 17 Apr 2014, 15:02, edited 2 times in total.


little grey rabbit
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#3

Post by little grey rabbit » 17 Apr 2014, 06:52

Hi Little Grey Rabbit
I don't know about this particular quote, but there are several accounts of babies and children being thrown in the air and shot by Lithuanian soldiers, having their heads bashed against walls or buried alive to spare a bullet. I will elaborate once I'm back from work.
I don't doubt it. I am just interested in these accounts - less so in survivor accounts who can be forgiven a little hyperbole (if it were to be proven as hyperbole), I am more interested in accounts from perpetrators that appears unforced.

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Skyderick
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#4

Post by Skyderick » 17 Apr 2014, 15:43

That may prove a challenge. I'm looking into the case of Petras Saulevicius for you. He allegedly testified at some point to having "abused women, old people and children" and "toss[ed] the children around like strips of timber". The testimony is probably in Lithuanian, if at all credible.

emil d. kjerte
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#5

Post by emil d. kjerte » 18 Apr 2014, 12:02

The name of the perpetrator is Walter Mattner, administrative officer with the Local SS and Police Commander at Mogilev. The quote is from a letter he wrote to his wife.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... at-im.html

James A Pratt III
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#6

Post by James A Pratt III » 20 Apr 2014, 00:08

There are accounts of this happening in the book "Scourge of the Swastica"

little grey rabbit
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#7

Post by little grey rabbit » 20 Apr 2014, 09:08

There are accounts of this happening in the book "Scourge of the Swastica"
My dear Mr Pratt The Third.
There are accounts of babies being thrown in the air and impaled on bayonets, pikes etc in every conflict since the dawn of time. It is the staple of propaganda - it was trotted out again for the German occupation of Belgium in WW1.
While it might be possible with a bayonet, I would have thought there would be extreme OH&S issues with using live ammunition and much more tricky in terms of timing.

What happened to Herr Mattner after the war - did he continue his career with the police? That might explain his testimony. Was he tried?

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Skyderick
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#8

Post by Skyderick » 20 Apr 2014, 14:47

Little Grey Rabbit, by the end of the day you can choose to disbelieve anything. No one is here to convince you.
Happy Easter everyone. For those interested, I have found Towiah Friedman's account of Mattner's interrogation in 1947 (source: Sixty years "Nazi hunter", edited by David C. Gross). I couldn't extract the entire text from Google Books because it offers a limited preview.

".... "This is what I found: it was stuffed in the back of the drawer,” he said, handing me a pack of perhaps 100 pages. They were letters, in German. The young Jew said he had read the letters, and had thrown up. “I brought them to you so that you'll find this Nazi murderer,” he said. “He mustn't be allowed to live another day.” The letters were from an S.S. Lieutenant, Walter Mattner. He had been stationed in Kiev and Mogilev, in Russia, shortly after the Germans entered the Ukraine. S.S. and Gestapo units were ordered into every Russian city seized by the Wehrmacht. They were ordered to shoot all Jews who had not fled eastward, toward central Russia. The order came from Himmler and was quite explicit; it was to be carried out without mercy. Mattner was apparently a sentimental fellow, for every few days he wrote a letter to his wife in Vienna. He described his life in Kiev and Mogilev, omitting no details. His wife, who was pregnant at the time, saved his letters; later on, his mother kept them. And now they lay on my desk. I read them and felt my heart pounding, with horror and fury. The letters were from October 1941 through early 1942. Mattner described, sparing nothing, how he and his men shot Jews in the two Russian cities. The Jewish children, he wrote, were hurled into the air and shot with dum-dum bullets. The first time he did it, Mattner wrote to his wife, his hand trembled; but after a few times he got used to it. “Here in Russia,” he said in one letter, “I can appreciate what it means to be a Nazi. If I weren't already a Nazi Party member, I would surely join up.” Communist leaders and party members in Kiev and Mogilev were hanged from a public square, with all the Russian compelled to watch, his letters reported. In one of his last letters to his wife, Mattner reported that in Kiev, 30,000 Jews were shot; in Mogilev, 17,000. I brought the letters at once to one of the Austrian police inspectors. He shuddered as he read. Other police officials were called to his office and they, too, read the letters. I understood the shame that these men felt. Mattner was not in Vienna, but the police found him, in two days, living in a small town in Upper Austria. They brought him to Vienna, and asked me to witness the interrogation. I hurried to the prison. He sat on a bench, his head lowered. The inspector ordered him to rise when I came in. He looked like any one of a thousand people you could see in Vienna every day. He wore glasses; we stared at him— he looked as though he was trying to sink through the floor. "Did you write these letters to your wife?" the inspector demanded, waving the letters in his face. "Yes, I wrote them," he said, almost whispering. “God damn you! How could you write to your pregnant wife that you are shooting children in Russia, without mercy?" The inspector's face was livid. "I, I wanted to look important to her." The inspector slapped his face hard. “Don't tell me those tales. We've read your letters. You even borrowed bullets from one of your men when you didn't have enough.” “No, no, I made that up, Inspector. I really fired a machine gun at Jews, but I always shot above their heads, I did.” This time the inspector's hand caught Mattner squarely in the mouth, drawing blood. "Talk, Mattner, talk. Explain to me why you were such a great Nazi lover. Why did you shoot Jews with such pleasure in Russia?" “It's not true, I swear it, Inspector. In Vienna I was the best friend of the Jews. I had Jewish friends and until 1938 I did all my shopping in Jewish stores. It was Hitler's propaganda, it poisoned people, and all that wild power in our hands.” I tumed on my heel and left the interrogation room. Another minute and I would have attacked him brutally, I'm sure. Mattner never left prison. He was tried, convicted and hanged."
Attachments
Mlattner(1).jpg
Walter Mattner
[http://www.yadvashem.org/untoldstories/database/germanReports.asp?cid=234&site_id=196]
Mlattner(1).jpg (36.16 KiB) Viewed 1335 times
Last edited by Skyderick on 20 Apr 2014, 20:17, edited 4 times in total.

Paul Lantos
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#9

Post by Paul Lantos » 20 Apr 2014, 16:27

There are lot of these kinds of unforced perpetrator anecdotes in "The Good Old Days" by Klee.

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wm
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#10

Post by wm » 03 May 2014, 20:57

little grey rabbit wrote:Well, whether it was a police secretary or someone else they certainly had a very vivid turn on phrase. I fear I would have been no good as an Einsatzgruppen soldier, I could barely throw a baby 1 meter into the air, let alone manage great arcs.
He didn't say the "thrower" and the shooter was the same person.
This time the inspector's hand caught Mattner squarely in the mouth, drawing blood.
An interesting case of post WW2 use of torture during a police investigation, very twenty first century like. Although I suppose it was like that all across Europe before and after the war.
If you were nobody the police liked to use the third degree - for the greater good of course.

little grey rabbit
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#11

Post by little grey rabbit » 04 May 2014, 02:47

He didn't say the "thrower" and the shooter was the same person.
So paint me a picture. One SS stands in front of the man with a gun and hurls the baby above his head. How high - half a meter? And the shooter aims his rifle at a falling object half a meter above his comrade's head?

Technically possible, but all the real soldiers I have known have been hyper-vigilant when it comes to gun safety.

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wm
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Re: Babies flew in great arcs through the air

#12

Post by wm » 05 May 2014, 20:09

Although I agree it looks like one of those embellished violent stories that some veterans like to tell, it's hard to prove negativity. Killing babies for fun, or in front of their mothers happened in WW2.
I would say gun safety is quite a modern invention, in WW2 soldiers were killed by their own weapons frequently.
And the world record in shot put is 23 meters, in hammer throw 86m - using over 7 kg weights. So it wasn't that hard.

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