How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Well, for example this article by Jonathan Harrison shows the hollowness of Walter Sanning's "theories" that aforementioned vho-article uses as one of its central sources:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-1.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... art-1.html
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
For a refutation of Sanning, I recommend:
http://web.archive.org/web/201004090753 ... ist.by.ru/
Chapters 1 and 2
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... g%20Series
HC blog - Crazy World of Walter Sanning
To sum up, Sanning overestimates emigration of Polish Jews in the period 1931-1939. He also significantly underestimates the Jewish birth rate. Furthermore, his numbers for Polish Jewish refugees to the Soviet-occupied zone is too high by almost 500,000.
His figures for Soviet Jews evacuated are atleast 1 million higher than the estimates contained in the literature on the topic.
http://web.archive.org/web/201004090753 ... ist.by.ru/
Chapters 1 and 2
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... g%20Series
HC blog - Crazy World of Walter Sanning
To sum up, Sanning overestimates emigration of Polish Jews in the period 1931-1939. He also significantly underestimates the Jewish birth rate. Furthermore, his numbers for Polish Jewish refugees to the Soviet-occupied zone is too high by almost 500,000.
His figures for Soviet Jews evacuated are atleast 1 million higher than the estimates contained in the literature on the topic.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
I tend to keep clear of debates over the number of Jews killed in WWII, namely because their aim is usually to discredit the holocaust. I just wanna throw in here that Yad Vashem has since 1951 collected the names and details of over four million Jewish victims. Their database is searchable online.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
According to their website, Yad Vashem has around 5 million names on the database but they note that double counting and other mistakes means this number is too high.Skyderick wrote:I just wanna throw in here that Yad Vashem has since 1951 collected the names and details of over four million Jewish victims. Their database is searchable online.
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/resources/names/faq.aspThere are close to five million personal records in the database. However, some people appear in more than one record: This occurs when more than one Page of Testimony is submitted for the same person, or the same person appears on both a Page and a deportation list and so on. In addition, some records contain information on more than one person – for example, some of the Pages of Testimony submitted in the 1950's list entire families on a single Page. At the moment (January 2012) we estimate the number of separate individuals recorded in the database to be over four million. This number will grow as we enrich the database with additional sources.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
@ Philipj: No one cares what your person, well known for his holocaust denial, states!
Last edited by history1 on 16 Jan 2016, 16:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
A post from Philipj, recommending an anti-Semite's notions and two early WWII-era publications as providing reliable estimates of the holocaust death toll, was removed pursuant to forum rules.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
I am not being anti Semitic or recommending/condoning hatred of any kind. Why is it that I cannot present examples of these publications as evidence without being labeled anti Semitic? There is a difference between denying the Holocaust/revealing the actual truth (Mass deportation and work camps) and correcting the figures. For instance, the Auschwitz deaths have been revised, (by the museum) with the number brought from 4 million to 1.5 million (Other scholars stipulate 1 million) However, for the sake of this argument we still do not subtract it from the
6 million figure which appears in the media as early as 1906, (New York Times, March 25, 1906/Pittsburgh Press, Nov. 28, 1944, page 5) and as late as 1944 before the war was over..
No one including him, has denied it to my knowledge.. He was asked the question by an Israeli reporter during the interview and he gave the answer.. We all know it happened, but we cannot continue to drill people with the same false/contradicting testimonies that have been exposed by him and many others already.. The only objective to revising history is bringing the truth forward for everyone to see regardless...
6 million figure which appears in the media as early as 1906, (New York Times, March 25, 1906/Pittsburgh Press, Nov. 28, 1944, page 5) and as late as 1944 before the war was over..
No one including him, has denied it to my knowledge.. He was asked the question by an Israeli reporter during the interview and he gave the answer.. We all know it happened, but we cannot continue to drill people with the same false/contradicting testimonies that have been exposed by him and many others already.. The only objective to revising history is bringing the truth forward for everyone to see regardless...
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
That figure was the estimate of the number of Jews living at that time in Eastern Europe, ie in the European part of the Russian Empire, in Romania, in Hungary, and in the Austrian province of Galicia. You will find that figure repeated consistently in publications dating from before the First World War.6 million figure which appears in the media as early as 1906,
The figure was picked up by Victor Gollancz at the end of 1942, in his pamphlet " "Let My People Go" : Some Practical Proposals for Dealing with Hitler's Massacre of the Jews and an Appeal to the British Public". He considered that 6 million was the total number of Jews under German control, and that if Hitler were not stopped all of them would be killed. However, by the end of the war, when it was apparent that was a considerable number of Jewish survivors, Gollancz came to the conclusion that the number killed was less than the 6 million he had predicted, but a number of at least 4 million, a similar conclusion to that reached by Gerald Reitlinger.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Philip, you wrote this:
When the war ended, the Soviets wanted to depict themselves as liberators for all of Europe (certainly Eastern Europe), and thus wanted to de-emphasize the Jewish victims and make Auschwitz a place where the Nazis butchered millions of others. I believe they did some calculations as to how many people could have been killed and used that as the figure for how many were killed.
Some people might have been confused (and holocaust deniers intentionally misrepresent that number), but to my knowledge, scholars have never made use of that number for calculating the figure for Jewish dead. As for the 1.5 million vs. 1 million, the 1.5 is the figure for all dead (e.g., hundreds of thousands of Poles), the 1 million is for Jewish dead.
Common misconception. The 4 million figure was never "4 million Jews." Rather, it was "4 million people"For instance, the Auschwitz deaths have been revised, (by the museum) with the number brought from 4 million to 1.5 million (Other scholars stipulate 1 million)
When the war ended, the Soviets wanted to depict themselves as liberators for all of Europe (certainly Eastern Europe), and thus wanted to de-emphasize the Jewish victims and make Auschwitz a place where the Nazis butchered millions of others. I believe they did some calculations as to how many people could have been killed and used that as the figure for how many were killed.
Some people might have been confused (and holocaust deniers intentionally misrepresent that number), but to my knowledge, scholars have never made use of that number for calculating the figure for Jewish dead. As for the 1.5 million vs. 1 million, the 1.5 is the figure for all dead (e.g., hundreds of thousands of Poles), the 1 million is for Jewish dead.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Michael, nothing incorrect, but just as a caveat, I believe that Reitllnger (at least according to van Pelt's report for the Lipstadt/Irving Trial, below) tended to choose the most conservative estimates:
"It is important to note that Reitlinger systematically chose, if confronted with different estimates about the number of victims, the lowest one. The first reason was that exaggeration would serve those who wished to deny the Holocaust.83 The second one must be located in his unusually cheerful disposition vis-a-vis the whole story, which was rooted in his very bleak assessment of human nature: as he wrote the book, he always reminded himself that it could have been worse--a sentiment few have shared."
"It is important to note that Reitlinger systematically chose, if confronted with different estimates about the number of victims, the lowest one. The first reason was that exaggeration would serve those who wished to deny the Holocaust.83 The second one must be located in his unusually cheerful disposition vis-a-vis the whole story, which was rooted in his very bleak assessment of human nature: as he wrote the book, he always reminded himself that it could have been worse--a sentiment few have shared."
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Well, actually the figure is around 1 million. 1,3 deported including the polish jewish transports, the real number is perhaps exagerated (300,000).uberjude wrote: As for the 1.5 million vs. 1 million, the 1.5 is the figure for all dead (e.g., hundreds of thousands of Poles), the 1 million is for Jewish dead.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
I'm confused Boby--are you saying 1 million for all dead? I mean for all dead in Auschwitz.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Yes, all dead: jews and non-jews. The German wiki have a good article with data:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opferzahl ... _Auschwitz
note that the number of hungarian jews killed in 1944 is wrong. There were more than 100,000 of them used for forced labor. If we substract this to the 1,1 million we have around 1 million deaths of whom the great majority were non-registered jews killed upon arrival. To my knowledge (I stand corrected) the number of polish-jewish transports and the hungarian jews used for forced labor are something disputed, so the number was possibly even lower.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opferzahl ... _Auschwitz
note that the number of hungarian jews killed in 1944 is wrong. There were more than 100,000 of them used for forced labor. If we substract this to the 1,1 million we have around 1 million deaths of whom the great majority were non-registered jews killed upon arrival. To my knowledge (I stand corrected) the number of polish-jewish transports and the hungarian jews used for forced labor are something disputed, so the number was possibly even lower.
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Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Over 100,000 Hungarian Jews returned from deportation, so the number selected for labour must have been much more than 100,000, given that a large number of those selected for labour and sent to other camps perished while excavating the underground factories for the A-4 and jet fighter programs.note that the number of hungarian jews killed in 1944 is wrong. There were more than 100,000 of them used for forced labor.
Re: How [many] Jews were killed for real?
Hi Michael
But that implies a very high mortality among forced laborers, something that can't be proved by the surviving documentation. German sources only refers to 100,000.
BTW, I remember from Eichmann Sassen interviews that he was surprised to see so many hungarian jews living in germany in the post-war.
But that implies a very high mortality among forced laborers, something that can't be proved by the surviving documentation. German sources only refers to 100,000.
BTW, I remember from Eichmann Sassen interviews that he was surprised to see so many hungarian jews living in germany in the post-war.