The Morgenthau plan
Re: The Morgenthau plan
An opinion post from sandeepmukherjee196 about alleged French war crimes after WW1 was removed, please stay on topic.
/Marcus
/Marcus
Re: The Morgenthau plan
Also, please use the quote feature when quoting, either from a post in the forum or some other source.
/Marcus
/Marcus
Re: The Morgenthau plan
Please get back on topic, i.e. the Morgenthau plan.
/Marcus
/Marcus
Re: The Morgenthau plan
Hi Sid
A quick search on the Internet shows that:
Basically, the British considered dismantling and scrapping the Wolfsburg plant because it was originally involved in war production. By the Allied policy (Potsdam Conference) the plant should have been scrapped. Thanks to two British army officers at a local level, the plant was used as a repair centre for the army, and then started production to satisfy British army needs for a light vehicle and the needs of the German Post Office. The British authorities offered the plant to Allied industrialists - no one wanted it. As late as March 1948 it was even offered to Ford American - who rejected it.
In 1946, local car production was set by the Allies at 10% of Germany's 1936 production levels. Consistent with the de-industrialisation policy implemented in 1946. Somehow VW survived economically (against the prediction of western industrialists). In 1949 the plant was handed back to the Germans from British control. Presumably, the Morgenthau thinking had been discarded. VW survived not due to British Government policy, but by the actions of two British army officers.
Regards
Dennis
You may not be quite "right" here regarding VW.Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi David,
Your Morgenthau text is much more severe than JCS 1067, especially as regards total deindustrialization. JCS 1067, in turn, was somewhat less severe than what actually happened. The resurrection of both VW and BMW by the British and US in 1946 shows that deindustrialization was not pursued.
A quick search on the Internet shows that:
Basically, the British considered dismantling and scrapping the Wolfsburg plant because it was originally involved in war production. By the Allied policy (Potsdam Conference) the plant should have been scrapped. Thanks to two British army officers at a local level, the plant was used as a repair centre for the army, and then started production to satisfy British army needs for a light vehicle and the needs of the German Post Office. The British authorities offered the plant to Allied industrialists - no one wanted it. As late as March 1948 it was even offered to Ford American - who rejected it.
In 1946, local car production was set by the Allies at 10% of Germany's 1936 production levels. Consistent with the de-industrialisation policy implemented in 1946. Somehow VW survived economically (against the prediction of western industrialists). In 1949 the plant was handed back to the Germans from British control. Presumably, the Morgenthau thinking had been discarded. VW survived not due to British Government policy, but by the actions of two British army officers.
Regards
Dennis
-
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 23722
- Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
- Location: USA
Re: The Morgenthau plan
sandeepmukherjee196 -- You wrote (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1925558):
(1)
(a) How do you propose to establish "the psyche of the Germans at large" at any particular time?
(b) When in 1944 did "the Germans at large" find out about the "Morgenthau plan"? That will establish some kind of starting point for your psychic argument.
(2)
Doesn't that depend on when in 1944? A lot of things happened in the European war that year. When the year began there was no Yalta Conference, no "Morgenthau plan," and no JCS 1067. The western allies didn't have air superiority until the middle of the year, and didn't invade France until then either. The documents you provided on "the Morgenthau plan" all date from December of 1944, by which time Germany had lost most of the territory it had formerly occupied, and had little left to bargain with.
(3)
(4)
(1)
That raises two questions:Continuing with my endeavour, that started this thread off, to establish the role of the Morgenthau Plan in the psyche of the Germans at large, in '44,
(a) How do you propose to establish "the psyche of the Germans at large" at any particular time?
(b) When in 1944 did "the Germans at large" find out about the "Morgenthau plan"? That will establish some kind of starting point for your psychic argument.
(2)
Hitler and the Nazis magnaminously doing themselves in, circa '44 wouldnt have helped really.
Doesn't that depend on when in 1944? A lot of things happened in the European war that year. When the year began there was no Yalta Conference, no "Morgenthau plan," and no JCS 1067. The western allies didn't have air superiority until the middle of the year, and didn't invade France until then either. The documents you provided on "the Morgenthau plan" all date from December of 1944, by which time Germany had lost most of the territory it had formerly occupied, and had little left to bargain with.
(3)
Are you trying to be humorous? No one here (or as far as I know, anywhere else) has denied that a "Morgenthau plan" existed. What has been denied is your initial claim -- "The Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime."Morgenthau Plan Denial isn't that easy actually.
(4)
Well, without getting into persuasiveness of mixed metaphors and imperative slogans, what was "the impact of the Morgenthau plan" that cannot "be swept under the carpet. . Not then.. not now !"Neither can the impact of the Morgenthau Plan be swept under the carpet.. Not then.. not now !
Re: The Morgenthau plan
An off-topic post and a now unnecessary reply was removed. The topic is the Morgenthau plan, please stay on it.
/Marcus
/Marcus
Re: The Morgenthau plan
A few posts discussing the Nero decree were split off into a new thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=213330
/Marcus
/Marcus
Re: The Morgenthau plan
The relevant part of a moved post:
Sid Guttridge wrote:I say again, the resurrection of BMW and VW production by the USA and British in 1946 shows clearly that the Morgenthau Plan was not implemented. Indeed. Mercedes-Benz and Daimler production resumed the same year. This doesn't look a lot like deindustrialization to me!
Cheers,
Sid.
P.S. A separate question - was the Morgenthau Plan actually wrong?
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: The Morgenthau plan
"P.S. A separate question - was the Morgenthau Plan actually wrong?"
I think the Plan would have repeated the mistakes made at Versailles.
I think the Plan would have repeated the mistakes made at Versailles.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34
Re: The Morgenthau plan
OpanaPointer wrote:"P.S. A separate question - was the Morgenthau Plan actually wrong?"
I think the Plan would have repeated the mistakes made at Versailles.
The Plan in its JCS 1067 avatar ( incarnation) repeated the mistakes of Versailles. The difference was the emergence of the Cold War. At the height of the Morgenthau plan / JCS 1067 Raj , General Remer's party won 16 seats in Lower Saxony on an anti American platform.
In the post Great War, Ruhr crisis era, the erstwhile allies morally fell apart but it was limited to the level of political debates. Whereas the Cold War created a situation of animosity and hostility so threatening for the western allies that German allegiance became essential.
Per force the Morgenthau Plan aka JCS 1067 had to be watered down and gradually dropped in toto. After all it would have been impracticable to ratchet up German cannon fodder on a 1000 calorie fare with emaciated US haters, tricked out with sticks, expected to be the bulwark against the Red Army.
Ciao
Sandeep
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: The Morgenthau plan
It wasn't implemented, so the "watering down" wasn't all that hard.
Re: The Morgenthau plan
Remer's Socialist Reich Party won its 16 seats (11% of the vote) in the state parliament of Lower Saxony in 1951, 4 years after the JCS 1067 was supplanted with JCS 1779. While Adenauer attributed the rise in the votes cast for the SRP to 'economic distress', an analysis conducted by the American Jewish Committee concluded the Socialist Reich party seemed to be strongest among moderately prosperous Protestant farmers... New York Times, July 16, 1951 Neo-Fascism Gains Sharply, Showing Animosity for U.S.
-
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 5643
- Joined: 16 May 2010, 15:12
- Location: United States of America
Re: The Morgenthau plan
And this is relevant to the Morgenthau Plan?Gorque wrote:Remer's Socialist Reich Party won its 16 seats (11% of the vote) in the state parliament of Lower Saxony in 1951, 4 years after the JCS 1067 was supplanted with JCS 1779. While Adenauer attributed the rise in the votes cast for the SRP to 'economic distress', an analysis conducted by the American Jewish Committee concluded the Socialist Reich party seemed to be strongest among moderately prosperous Protestant farmers... New York Times, July 16, 1951 Neo-Fascism Gains Sharply, Showing Animosity for U.S.
-
- Member
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34
Re: The Morgenthau plan
One has to take into account that historical cause and effect equations don't operate overnight on a real time basis.OpanaPointer wrote:And this is relevant to the Morgenthau Plan?Gorque wrote:Remer's Socialist Reich Party won its 16 seats (11% of the vote) in the state parliament of Lower Saxony in 1951, 4 years after the JCS 1067 was supplanted with JCS 1779. While Adenauer attributed the rise in the votes cast for the SRP to 'economic distress', an analysis conducted by the American Jewish Committee concluded the Socialist Reich party seemed to be strongest among moderately prosperous Protestant farmers... New York Times, July 16, 1951 Neo-Fascism Gains Sharply, Showing Animosity for U.S.
At the height of the JCS 1067 regime, German politics and public opinion was not organised. Resentments and anger still didn't have a legitimately channelised outlet. It took time to eXpress itself politically.
Similarly the changed allied attitudes towards Germany, the Berlin blockade goodwill et al took time to fully turn into a pro western mass attitude over the 50s through the early 60s.
Ciao
Sandeep
-
- Member
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 06:34
Re: The Morgenthau plan
Gorque wrote:Remer's Socialist Reich Party won its 16 seats (11% of the vote) in the state parliament of Lower Saxony in 1951, 4 years after the JCS 1067 was supplanted with JCS 1779. While Adenauer attributed the rise in the votes cast for the SRP to 'economic distress', an analysis conducted by the American Jewish Committee concluded the Socialist Reich party seemed to be strongest among moderately prosperous Protestant farmers... New York Times, July 16, 1951 Neo-Fascism Gains Sharply, Showing Animosity for U.S.
Perhaps this was based on the report of the Anglo Jewish Association : Germany's New Nazis in 1951 ?