What German village can be regarded as German Oradour

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Sergey
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#16

Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006, 12:41

Hi Simon!

ARRSE is the best. Maybe other places are more informative, in some I could find more those who support me. On ARRSE (for obvious reasons) the majority (softly speaking) dislikes me but no matter I love all ARRSErs.

This case is exactly what I was seeking.
Simon Orchard wrote:The presence of soldiers does not mean there was any fighting.
Of course, but do you think that 2 squads of German infantry would look without any actions on alleged "cold blooded" killing (moreover wounded German soldiers were in the hospital).
Simon Orchard wrote:The presence of wounded soldiers does not mean that they were capable of fighting
Of course they could fight or could not. Who knows? I don't see any mention about the surrender.
Simon Orchard wrote:The discovery of bodies with single shots to the back of the head along with naked bodies as well as the other testimony Toku presents is nothing like a 'battle'.
"Naked" bodies? Mass graves? These extraordinary allegation would attract attention of many German historians. What are their comments? Now we have only a theory developed by Polish historian, no more. So it is not proven historical fact, rather allegations.

Mass graves could be created before (in Hitler's times) or later (the city was under control of Polish authorities). As for naked female bodies - looks like a fairy tale.

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#17

Post by Simon Orchard » 15 May 2006, 15:32

Good old Sergey, still the same rhetoric :wink:

It really doesn't matter how much is put in front of you and you know quite well that there's been a huge amount of that on arrse. All we get is the same old Soviet style denials and smoke screens.


Read again what Toku posted

Number of patients of military hospital is deducted from the number of uniformed bodies exhumated from mass graves
Uniformed bodies means German soldiers. So we're not talking nazis or Poles post-war. If they were found together with the patients in the same mass graves then they were killed at the same time by the same people.
Of course they could fight or could not. Who knows? I don't see any mention about the surrender.
Why would you expect any formal surrender? Why should it even be mentioned?


Remember that any serious investigations have only been possible since the end of the cold war but as we can see, more and more work is being done. It's not surprising that it's not exactly high profile stuff or that popular amongst researches and historians. Remember the official fuss the russian amabassador made over Beevor? I really don't think we're going to get much in the way of official government investigations, not from Germany, not from Poland. That's because we have to live with Russia and any such investigations would damage relations. Let's face it, there's no way the Russians would ever agree to proper impartial investigations.


Sergey
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#18

Post by Sergey » 15 May 2006, 16:00

Simon!

Our friend ToKu posted something with reference to a Polish historian. ToKu wrote: "Piechocki is the most renowned historian interested in history of Olsztyn (Allenstein). In my opinion he sometimes goes too far with his speculations"

Here we can discuss the story and propose different versions:

My version: there were German troops in Kortau, there was a battle and the hospital was burned as a result. It was a military object btw. So alleged mass graves could be explained very easily.

We can discuss anything if we would have two versions. I proposed my one, and you? What is your version?

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#19

Post by Kentaurus » 16 May 2006, 02:38

Nemmersdorf: Neue Aspekte eines Verbrechens
Eines der düsteren Kapitel
von Thorsten Hinz
Das ostpreußische Nemmersdorf (Kreis Gumbinnen) taucht in jeder halbwegs objektiven Geschichtsschreibung über die Spätphase des Zweiten Weltkriegs auf, auch außerhalb Deutschlands. Am 21./22. Oktober 1944 wurde Nemmersdorf als einer der ersten deutsche Orte von der Roten Armee eingenommen. Einen Tag später schlug die Wehrmacht die Rote Armee noch einmal zurück und fand Opfer eines Massakers, vor allem Frauen und Kinder, vor. "Nemmersdorf" wurde zum Fanal der Flucht und der Untaten der Roten Armee an der ostdeutschen Bevölkerung.

Der US-Völkerrechtler Alfred M. de Zayas nennt Nemmersdorf "eines der am besten belegten Beispiele russischer Greueltaten im zweiten Weltkrieg". Der italienische Historiker Marco P. Chiodo leitet sein Buch "Sie werden die Stunde verfluchen…" über "Sterben und Vertreibung der Deutschen im Osten" (1987, dt. 1990 im Herbig Verlag) mit einer Schilderung der Nemmersdorfer Greuel ein. Die Quellen sind seit den vierziger und fünfziger Jahren konstant. Vor allem bezieht man sich auf die Aussagen des aus Königsberg stammenden Volkssturmmannes Karl Potrok, der in der Dokumentation "Die Vertreibung der deutschen Bevölkerung aus den Gebieten östlich der Oder und Neiße" des Bundesvertriebenenministeriums 72 Tote angab. Sechs Frauen seien nackt gekreuzigt worden (vier an einem Leiterwagen, zwei an einem Scheunentor). Einer blinden Greisin sei mit einer Axt oder einem Spaten der Schädel gespalten, alle weiblichen Opfer seien vergewaltigt worden. Dem Protokoll Potreks werden Aussagen von Dorfbewohnern, Soldaten, Offizieren (darunter des Stabchefs der 4. Armee in Ostpreußen, Generalmajor Dethleffsen) und Korrespondentenberichte der norwegischen Zeitung Fritt Folk vom 6. und des Genfer Courier de Genève vom 7. 11. 1944 zur Seite gestellt. "Nemmersdorf" ist in der Historiographie eine feste Größe.

Daher ist damit zu rechnen, daß das eben erschienene Büchlein "Nemmersdorf, Oktober 1944 – Was in Ostpreußen wirklich geschah" (edition ost, Berlin 1997, 14,90 DM) des promovierten Hobbyhistorikers Bernhard Fisch Aufmerksamkeit erregen wird. Der gebürtige Ostpreuße (Jahrgang 1926) hat neue Quellenstudien, Ortsbesichtigungen Zeugenbefragungen durchgeführt. Eine persönliche Betroffenheit ergibt sich, weil er als Soldat am 25. Oktober 1944 auf der Suche nach Proviant zufällig in Nemmersdorf war und seine Eindrücke sich von den Bildern der Wochenschauen unterschieden. Er hat auch russische Gefechtsprotokolle gesichet. Fischs Darstellung liest sich wie ein Krimi und enthält einige Abweichungen von den bisherigen Nemmersdorf-Berichten.

Fisch teilt eingangs den Obstruktionsversuch seiner Recherchen durch einen "Vertriebenenfunktionär" der Landsmannschaft Ostpreußen mit. Längst nicht alle aus dem überschaubaren Kreis der Nemmersdorfer Ortszeugen – von denen einige noch lebten – seien befragt worden. Im Kreisarchiv Gumbinnen lag ebenfalls noch ein unausgewerteter Bericht. Außerdem sei eine Quellenkritik bislang unterblieben. Einige Berichte seien Fälschungen oder beruhten in Wahrheit auf Hörensagen, da die Zeugen nachweislich nie in Nemmersdorf gewesen oder schon früher geflüchtet waren. Als merkwürdig stuft er ein, daß bislang niemand sich der Mühe unterzogen habe, die Leichen auf dem Fotomaterial vom Oktober 1944 zu identifizieren.

Bei den ausländischen Zeitungsartikeln, so Fisch, könne es sich nicht um Augenzeugenberichte gehandelt haben. Diese Presseorgane hätten im übrigen den Nationalsozialisten zumindest nahegestanden. Wie Fisch errechnete, hätten die Korrespondeten frühestens eine Woche nach dem Massaker vor Ort sein können. Zu diesem Zeitpunkt konnten sie aber nicht mehr – wie dargestellt – Ermordete in den Wohnungen vorgefunden haben. Außerdem seien Vewüstungen in den Nemmersdorfer Häusern (wie eine Beschwerde des ostpreußischen Oberlandesgerichtspräsidenten dokumentiert) auch durch einquartierte deutsche Soldaten erfolgt.

Frontal zieht Fisch den Augenzeugenbericht von Karl Potrek in Zweifel. Dieser hatte angegeben, die Leichen seien zunächst bestattet worden und nach Ankunft einer Untersuchungskommission der Wehrmacht wieder exhumiert worden. Dem widerspreche aber der Anblick der fotografierten Leichen. Die gekreuzigten Frauen hätte nicht einmal der Völkische Beobachter erwähnt. Die Scheune am Ortseingang, an deren Tore zwei (von insgesamt sechs) nackte Frauen genagelt worden seien, habe es gar nicht gegeben. Auf den Fotos seien zudem alle Leichen bekleidet. Auch von einem geschlossenen Treck, der in Nemmersdorf von den Russen überrollt werden konnte, habe kein anderer Zeuge gesprochen. Daß der ermordeten alten Frau der Schädel gespalten worden sei, diese neue Grausamkeitsstufe taucht erst in Potreks Bericht 1953 auf. Andererseits verrate Potreks Bericht eine Orts- und Personenkenntnis, die er als Ortsfremder nicht haben konnte. Potrek, darauf läuft Fischs Argumentation hinaus, habe seine Erinnerungen mit schon vorliegenden Berichten und Artikeln aus dem Völkischen Beobachter, wo allgemein von "Durchstoßmerkmalen an beiden Handflächen" eines alten Mannes die Rede war (allerdings an einem anderen Ort), vermischt. Auch die behauptete Identifizierung der Toten als Nemmersdorfer durch eine Dorfbewohnerin habe es so nicht gegeben.

Außerdem seien Obduktionen unterblieben, so daß man nicht in jedem Falle feststellen konnte, welcher Tote etwa während Kampfhandlungen umgekommen war. Für verbürgt hält Fisch in Nemmersdorf zwei Dutzend Opfer, von denen die meisten zweifelsfrei durch Genick- und Kopfschüsse hingemetzelt worden waren. Die Goebbels-Presse hätte die Toten und Greuel von mehreren ostpreußischen Orten unter "Nemmersdorf" summiert, um die propagandistische Wirkung zu erhöhen.

Um diese sei es im Herbst 1944 gegangen. Wie Fisch anhand von Akten des Reichssicherheitshauptamts und des Propagandaministeriums analysiert, habe 1944 in der deutschen Bevölkerung eine kapitulationsbereite Stimmung geherrscht. Die Nemmersdorf-Berichte sollten die Notwendigkeit eines Kampfes auf Leben und Tod verdeutlichen.

In russischen Militärberichten habe man sich verwundert geäußert, daß die deutschen Soldaten anstatt die vorbereiteten Verteidigungsstellungen zu beziehen, die eigenen Geschütze in einer durchaus noch nicht hoffnungslosen Situation zerstört hatten, wodurch der Durchbruch nach Nemmersdorf sich beschleunigte. Hier insinuiert Fisch zumindest, daß das Absicht gewesen sein könnte. Nicht nur diese Passage könnte lebhafte Diskussionen auslösen.

Das Buch stellt mitnichten eine "Revision" des Nemmersdorf-Verbrechens dar, sondern konkretisiert es möglicherweise, und eine Diskussion darüber könnte ein Beispiel souveränen Umgangs mit eigener Geschichte sein. Es mag erstaunen, daß ausgerechnet Ralph Giordano in einem Nachwort die richtigen historischen Relationen herstellt: "Nemmersdorf" sei nur Synonym für "unzählige Ereignisse" beim Einmarsch der Roten Armee im Osten gewesen, der "zu den düstersten Kapiteln in der Kriegsgeschichte der Menschheit" zähle. Und: Die Verbrechen an Deutschen verdienten unter Berücksichtigung von Chronologie und Kausalität genausoviel Öffentlichkeit wie die von Deutschen. Sein Wort in Gottes Ohr!

Source: http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv/47aa15.htm

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#20

Post by Sergey » 16 May 2006, 11:18

http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,187 ... 95,00.html
How did Gerda Meczulat, survivor of Nemmersdorf experience, the procedure of the Red Army soldiers? "those behaved otherwise actually calmly. That they did not trouble us somehow, they did not do, remember that "them.

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#21

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 16 May 2006, 12:39

As already mentioned , that historytainment by Knopp , not wort a penny :roll:

Jan-Hendrik

Sergey
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#22

Post by Sergey » 16 May 2006, 13:36

Jan-Hendrik wrote:As already mentioned , that historytainment by Knopp , not wort a penny :roll:

Jan-Hendrik
But Frau Gerda Meczulat, survivor of Nemmersdorf experience was mentioned. Her testimonies are very important.

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Kentaurus
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#23

Post by Kentaurus » 16 May 2006, 23:20

Sergey wrote:http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,187 ... 95,00.html
How did Gerda Meczulat, survivor of Nemmersdorf experience, the procedure of the Red Army soldiers? "those behaved otherwise actually calmly. That they did not trouble us somehow, they did not do, remember that "them.
Incorrectly translated by Sergey. Correct translation as follows:
"They behaved orderly otherwise. [Apart from the killings] they didn't [sexually] harass us otherwise" she remembers.
I added the meaning in brackets.
Last edited by Kentaurus on 16 May 2006, 23:45, edited 2 times in total.

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#24

Post by Kentaurus » 16 May 2006, 23:27

Sergey wrote:But Frau Gerda Meczulat, survivor of Nemmersdorf experience was mentioned. Her testimonies are very important.
Quoted from the same Guido Knopp article that Sergey quoted from:
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,1872,2004695,00.html wrote:On October 21st Soviet soldiers took the village. Many inhabitants were unable to escape and hid in their homes and feared for their lives.
Gerda Meczulat, Nemmersdorferin, remembers: "I was the last person out, I stumbled and then fell. In that moment the [Soviet] officer shot at me from behind." Although she was shot into the head Gerda Meczulat survived. She was the only survivor. When German troops took back the village two days later they were confronted with a horrible sight. Among the murder victims: old people, women, children.

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#25

Post by Kentaurus » 17 May 2006, 03:51

Regarding the incorrect translation by Sergey that I mentioned above I would like to add a little advice to Sergey. If you actually don't speak German don't try to translate texts with Google translator and then quote them. In case you hadn't noticed, that tool is not very reliable (read: it is totally unreliable) and more often than not produces total gibberish. Just a little advice from your friendly "Berliner Jung" ("Berlin lad") Kentaurus.

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#26

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 06:25

Kentaurus wrote:
Sergey wrote:But Frau Gerda Meczulat, survivor of Nemmersdorf experience was mentioned. Her testimonies are very important.
Quoted from the same Guido Knopp article that Sergey quoted from:
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/inhalt/23/0,1872,2004695,00.html wrote:On October 21st Soviet soldiers took the village. Many inhabitants were unable to escape and hid in their homes and feared for their lives.
Gerda Meczulat, Nemmersdorferin, remembers: "I was the last person out, I stumbled and then fell. In that moment the [Soviet] officer shot at me from behind." Although she was shot into the head Gerda Meczulat survived. She was the only survivor. When German troops took back the village two days later they were confronted with a horrible sight. Among the murder victims: old people, women, children.
Nothing special there. There were fierce battles in the region. Each square inch of German territory was defended by German soldiers. They didn't surrender and prefered to die. Each house was used to attack Soviet troops, to kill them by all possible means.

I propose you to read (even using on-line translator) about battles in the area

http://torih.narod.ru/book/001/Gal00020.htm

According to this source Neemrsdorf was captured at 9:30. So the battle for this village happened in night time or early in the morning. So it would be hard to regognize civilians. It was a war and collateral damages were alas unavoidable. Had Soviet Soldiers right to capture the village. I suppose that they had this right.

Frau Gerda Meczulat clearly said that she was wounded and other were killed after the attempt to quit a house. So Soviet soldiers could think that German troops try to retire.

As for the shooting then there is an universal rule: during a battle if you see a figure then shoot first and think later. Those who don't follow the rule would not have chances for a long life.

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#27

Post by Simon Orchard » 17 May 2006, 12:15

Sergey wrote:Simon!

Our friend ToKu posted something with reference to a Polish historian. ToKu wrote: "Piechocki is the most renowned historian interested in history of Olsztyn (Allenstein). In my opinion he sometimes goes too far with his speculations"

Here we can discuss the story and propose different versions:

My version: there were German troops in Kortau, there was a battle and the hospital was burned as a result. It was a military object btw. So alleged mass graves could be explained very easily.

We can discuss anything if we would have two versions. I proposed my one, and you? What is your version?

No Sergey, i don't have a version as i have not researched the case....neither have you. If you want your version accepted then put forward credible sources not unsubstantiated 'fairy tales' because if we were to follow your kind of 'version' then we could make up any scenario we cared to for Oradur.

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#28

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 13:05

Simon Orchard wrote:
Sergey wrote:Simon!

Our friend ToKu posted something with reference to a Polish historian. ToKu wrote: "Piechocki is the most renowned historian interested in history of Olsztyn (Allenstein). In my opinion he sometimes goes too far with his speculations"

Here we can discuss the story and propose different versions:

My version: there were German troops in Kortau, there was a battle and the hospital was burned as a result. It was a military object btw. So alleged mass graves could be explained very easily.

We can discuss anything if we would have two versions. I proposed my one, and you? What is your version?

No Sergey, i don't have a version as i have not researched the case....neither have you. If you want your version accepted then put forward credible sources not unsubstantiated 'fairy tales' because if we were to follow your kind of 'version' then we could make up any scenario we cared to for Oradur.
Hi Simon!

If I try to prove that something happened then it would be up to me to show a credible source. But how it possile to prove that something hadn't happened?

There is well known Sakharov Centre in Moscow. It is a human rights organisation backed by the West, strongly anti-Putin. Chechnya and war crimes is their favorite theme. Let's look what Saharov Centre writes about battles in Allenstein area.

http://www.sakharov-center.ru/asfcd/aut ... ge=310#317

Allenstein was mentioned on p.317 - the city was capture 22 January, many POWs, descriptions of battles. General Gosbach ordered his soldiers to fight agains Soviet troops in Allenstein. But no one word about war crimes.

My source is not a proof, rather a demonstration of theoretical inability to prove that something hadn't happened.

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#29

Post by ToKu » 17 May 2006, 16:40

I used online translator and found that Hossbach's counteroffnsive (which took place 27.1 - 29.1) was aimed at Olsztyn and Elbing.

I'm interested in fights in Eastern Prussia, so I know that Hossbach's counteroffensive was not aimed at Allenstein (Olsztyn). As a matter of fact not two, but three groups attacked - XXVI Corps was attacking from area east of Muhlhausen in Elbing direction, VI Corps from area east of Wormidtt (Orneta) in direction of Preussische Holland (Pasłęk), and VII Panzer Corps from Guttstsadt (Dobre Miasto) in direction of Mohrungen (Morąg).

If translator trnslated correct then small group of Germans burst into Liebstadt (Miłakowo), but was destroyed. According to my knowledge it was not a small group but VII Panzer Corps and majority of VI Corps, moreover they were not destroyed, but managed to reach and liberate Preussische Holland and Mohrungen (30 km W, and some 20 km SW from Liebstadt.

Image



This map is taken from "Wyzwolenie ziem Polski północnej" by Edmund Kosiarz, gdynia 1967, it is not very precise, but You can clearly see that Hossbach's counteroffensive was not aimed at Olsztyn.

Your doesn't seem toi be very precise in Allenstein case, so no surprise it is not mentioning attrocities that took place here.

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#30

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 17:20

ToKu!

I used this source (it is a book written by genaral Gorbatov, commander of 3d army)

http://www.sakharov-center.ru/asfcd/aut ... ge=310#317
Учитывая создавшуюся обстановку, генерал от инфантерии Госбах отдал своим войскам приказ прорваться одной группой к Эльбингу, а другой — на Алленштайн.
Taking into account the situation, general Gossbach ordered his troops to battle through one group toward Elbing, another one toward Allenstein
General Gorbatov took part in this operation, moreover he was a high rank commander. Later he was appointed as a comendant of Berlin. No doubt he was well informed.

As for maps composed by historians then sometimes they are correct, sometimes not absolutely correct. Written words by immediate participant of the battle are more valuable.

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