What German village can be regarded as German Oradour

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Kentaurus
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#31

Post by Kentaurus » 17 May 2006, 17:23

Sergey wrote: According to this source Neemrsdorf was captured at 9:30. So the battle for this village happened in night time or early in the morning. So it would be hard to regognize civilians.
You are grasping for straws here. It doesn't matter that the battle might have taken place at night. The inhabitants hid in their homes. When the village was taken at 9.30 it was already full light. So when the Soviets found the inhabitants hidden in their homes they could clearly see that they were civilians and since these civilians didn't wear uniforms they could not be mistaken for soldiers. And you can argue that some of the hiding civilians might have been accidentally shot BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. That ALL civilians were shot means that at least some of them were deliberately killed, i.e. they were murdered.
Sergey wrote: Frau Gerda Meczulat clearly said that she was wounded and other were killed after the attempt to quit a house. So Soviet soldiers could think that German troops try to retire.
Sergey, Sergey. This is why soldiers wear uniforms. So civilians are not mistaken for combatants and accidentally shot. It is possible that the Soviest soldiers made a mistake and accidentally shot the firts civilian that left the house. But Soviet soldiers shot A NUMBER of Civilians before shooting Gerda Meczulat. All of them were in civilian clothes and were clearly distinguishable from German soldiers by their civilian clothes. Soviet Soldiers would have to be blind to not recognize the Civilian clothes. Gerda Meczulat clearly identified her attacker as a Soviet officer (and you yourself said that her testimony is very important). If she could identify nationality and rank of her attacker her attacker would have had no problems to identify her as a civilian clothes wearing female. Yet he shot her in the head. This can only be a mistake in the head of a denier. Sergey, however you try to weasel around this, it remains a Soviet massacre, a Soviet war crime. To keep denying it and and making silly excuses makes it only clearer that you are an apologist for Soviet war crimes.

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#32

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 17:51

Kentaurus wrote:
Sergey wrote: According to this source Neemrsdorf was captured at 9:30. So the battle for this village happened in night time or early in the morning. So it would be hard to regognize civilians.
You are grasping for straws here. It doesn't matter that the battle might have taken place at night. The inhabitants hid in their homes. When the village was taken at 9.30 it was already full light. So when the Soviets found the inhabitants hidden in their homes they could clearly see that they were civilians and since these civilians didn't wear uniforms they could not be mistaken for soldiers.
Sergey wrote: Frau Gerda Meczulat clearly said that she was wounded and other were killed after the attempt to quit a house. So Soviet soldiers could think that German troops try to retire.
Sergey, Sergey. This is why soldiers wear uniforms. So civilians are not mistaken for combatants and accidentally shot. It is possible that the Soviest soldiers made a mistake and accidentally shot the firts civilian that left the house. But Soviet soldiers shot A NUMBER of Civilians before shooting Gerda Meczulat. All of them were in civilian clothes and were clearly distinguishable from German soldiers by their civilian clothes. Soviet Soldiers would have to be blind to not recognize the Civilian clothes. Sergey, however you try to weasel around this, it remains a Soviet massacre, a Soviet war crime. To keep denying it and and making silly excuses makes it only clearer that you are an apologist for Soviet war crimes.
Kentaurus!

It happened this way. Most of inhabitants fled before the Soviet attack. Remaining civilians tried to do it as they heard first shots. So trying to escape they exposed themselves in the crossfire.

http://torih.narod.ru/book/001/Gal00020.htm
25th tank brigade... along with batallion from 4th infantery brigade attacked garrison in Nemmersdorf
So one thing is obvious: there was a fierce battle. Of course German soldiers didn't retire without even one shot. The civilians tried to escape just during the storm. Unfortunately 26 were killed.

Few days Soviet troops defended their positions in Nemmersdorf during German counter-offensive.

http://torih.narod.ru/book/001/Gal00025.htm
In Nemmersdorf about battalion supported by 20 tanks, heavy gun fire and aviation made 6 attacks during one day agains regiment of 25th brigade
...
During two days sergeant Akhtiyamov destroyed 3 tanks, 3 mechanised guns and two armoured transporters
So Frau Gerda was not raped. Moreover she confirms that nobody in the village was raped. She was wounded but not killed. She clearly said that Soviet soldiers didn't anything wrong in the village.


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#33

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 17 May 2006, 18:03

There was NO fight in Nemmersdorf as the Soviets caputered it first time just because there were NO defending troops :wink:

Neares German forces were parts of a Rgt. of HG 2 km away in the north .

And if you read properly the "witness" was shot in the head and was mentally ill after this .

So your tryings to reveal this massive crime are just annoying ....

Jan-Hendrik

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#34

Post by Kentaurus » 17 May 2006, 18:19

Sergey wrote: It happened this way. Most of inhabitants fled before the Soviet attack. Remaining civilians tried to do it as they heard first shots. So trying to escape they exposed themselves in the crossfire.
.
As was witnessed by Gerda Meczulat the remaining civilians hid in their homes and were murdered after the Soviets took the village. Gerda Meczulat clearly recognized her attacker as a Soviet officer. That means that her attacker was close behind her and that her attacker could recognize her as a civilian women and those civilians that left the house before Gerda Meczulat and were murdered by the Soviets could be recognized as civilians too. That Gerda Meczulat's attacker was so close behind her that she could identify his nationality and rank means that it could not have been crossfire. When you get caught in crossfire your attacker usually doesn't stand right behind you and shoots you into the head. You yourself said that Gerda Meczulat's testimony in this regard is very important.
Sergey wrote: So Frau Gerda was not raped. Moreover she confirms that nobody in the village was raped.
.
This is true. Gerda Meczulat said in her testimony that the remaining civilians were murdered by the Soviets and that a Soviet officer shot her in the head from behind but that the civilian women were not raped.
Sergey wrote: She was wounded but not killed.
True. But she was the only survivor and she was shot into the head from close behind.
Sergey wrote: She clearly said that Soviet soldiers didn't anything wrong in the village.
Sergey, Sergey, when will you ever learn. I told you already that your Google translation is gibberish. You can't take that translation at face value when you don't speak German. If you present a garbled Google translation as proof you humiliate yourself. I corrected your translation. I told you that the correct translations means that Gerda Meczulat said, that the civilians were murdered but not raped ("OTHERWISE they behaved orderly", "they didn't harass us OtHERWISE" - meaning the civilans weren not raped, but they were murdered). And how could Gerda Meczulat have said that Soviet soldiers "didn't do anything wrong in the village" if in the same testimony she remembers how a Soviet officer shot her in the head from close behind? So in your opinion it is not "wrong" to shoot a civilian women into the head from close behind?

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#35

Post by Kentaurus » 17 May 2006, 18:45

I found more of the testimony from Gerda Meczulat here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=6291

Here is the relevant part regarding testimony of Gerda Meczulat:
Gerda Meczulat lived on the other side of the river. Her father Eduard, 71, had decided against fleeing. The Meczulats didn’t have a cart. Together with other villagers they procured shelter in a cellar.
What happened there has not been completely clarified until the present day. Gerda Meczulat later reported that the first Russians entered the cellar in the early afternoon. They searched the hand luggage, but were unexpectedly friendly. One even played with the children. But in the evening an officer appeared and in a harsh tone ordered the Germans outside.
“When we came out there were soldiers on both sides of the exit with rifles ready to fire. I fell down because I have polio, was dragged up and felt nothing more in all the confusion. When I recovered my senses I heard children scream and rifle shots. Then it was quiet.”
Gerda Meczulat survived heavily wounded, because the soldier who wanted to shoot hear aimed inaccurately. She was the only survivor.
When the Wehrmacht took back the community of 637 souls on the next day, they found at least two dozen corpses of women, children and elder men. Red Army soldiers had shot them or bashed in their heads.


This clearly shows that Sergey's "crossfire" argument is a silly denier's excuse.

The original German article can be found here: http://slonsk.tripod.com/2002/April/Ver ... piegel.htm

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#36

Post by Kentaurus » 17 May 2006, 19:22

... furthermore, as this testimony proves, the killings of the civilians didn't happen in the night when there was still a battle going on as Sergey claims (IF there was a battle at all) but in the evening when the village was long taken by the Soviets. That means, Sergey made all the stuff up about civilans who were killed in darkness and crossfire. Nice going, Sergey.

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#37

Post by David Thompson » 17 May 2006, 20:42

Kentarus -- Drop the personal remarks and stick to your fact-based arguments. Further posts indulging in name-calling will be deleted in their entirety. You are invited to re-post relevant information which complies with the section rules on civility. Our readers are intelligent enough to distinguish between good and bad arguments, so leave it at that.

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#38

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 21:04

Jan-Hendrik wrote:There was NO fight in Nemmersdorf as the Soviets caputered it first time just because there were NO defending troops :wink:

Neares German forces were parts of a Rgt. of HG 2 km away in the north .

And if you read properly the "witness" was shot in the head and was mentally ill after this .

So your tryings to reveal this massive crime are just annoying ....

Jan-Hendrik
Dear Jan-Hendrik!

Your suggestions are very interesting. However, they look rather as your opinion that is not backed by a reference to any source of information.

Do you really believe that there was absolutely defenceless village (a big one btw) that time. First captured big village on the German soil had huge psychological impact. So German leadership did it best to defend each inch of German land.

I propose you to seach memoir of German generals. Maybe there you would be able to find anything.

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#39

Post by Sergey » 17 May 2006, 21:17

David Thompson wrote:Kentarus -- Drop the personal remarks and stick to your fact-based arguments. Further posts indulging in name-calling will be deleted in their entirety. You are invited to re-post relevant information which complies with the section rules on civility. Our readers are intelligent enough to distinguish between good and bad arguments, so leave it at that.
Dear mr.Tompson!

I believe that our friend Kentaurus is highly intelligent and polite person. I'm happy to conversate with so well-informed and emotional person. Yes, emotional and it is not a bad feature from my point of view. Allow us to continie our discussion. From my side I'm ready to change my point of view at any moment if I would see a good argument.

Regards!

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#40

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 17 May 2006, 21:20

My source :

Ulrich Saft : Krieg im Osten - das bittere Ende jenseits der Weichsel bis Oder und Neiße , p.42ff

Suggesting things in an expertize for other members :wink:

Jan-Hendrik

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#41

Post by David Thompson » 17 May 2006, 21:54

Sergey -- You wrote, in response to my warning to Kentaurus on the civility rule:
I believe that our friend Kentaurus is highly intelligent and polite person. I'm happy to conversate with so well-informed and emotional person. Yes, emotional and it is not a bad feature from my point of view. Allow us to continie our discussion. From my side I'm ready to change my point of view at any moment if I would see a good argument.
While I appreciate your comments, our rules are not for the benefit of one or another person, but for the readers generally. Those rules apply to everyone who posts here. They were written for the specific purpose of encouraging informed, civil discussion, and their application is not left to the opinions or notions of individual posters.

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#42

Post by Sergey » 18 May 2006, 09:01

Dear Kentaurus!

Many thanks for your posts. My initial version was wrong. Indeed I made wrong suggestions because I was unaware about the article in Spigel. Now let's look at it closely.
Spigel's article wrote:Gerda Meczulat lived on the other side of the river. Her father Eduard, 71, had decided against fleeing. The Meczulats didn’t have a cart. Together with other villagers they procured shelter in a cellar.
What happened there has not been completely clarified until the present day. Gerda Meczulat later reported that the first Russians entered the cellar in the early afternoon. They searched the hand luggage, but were unexpectedly friendly. One even played with the children.
Nothing wrong with it. The search of the luggage was a standard lawfull procedure. And we see that Soviet soldiers were friendly.
Spigel's article wrote:But in the evening an officer appeared and in a harsh tone ordered the Germans outside.
Probably Soviet soldiers needed this improvised bunker for militiary puposes as German troops advanced and they ordered civilians to leave it for their own security.
Spigel's article wrote:“When we came out there were soldiers on both sides of the exit with rifles ready to fire."
Armed soldiers in war time, during German offensive? Nothing special. And rifles are always ready to fire. So the civilians were between two rows of Soviet soldiers. It is would be too dangerous for Soviet soldiers to fire toward the civilians in this situation.
Spigel's article wrote:"I fell down because I have polio, was dragged up and felt nothing more in all the confusion. When I recovered my senses I heard children scream and rifle shots. Then it was quiet.”
So she heard the shots and hadn't seen the process of shooting. Probabaly advancing German troops fired at Soviet Soldiers and accedentally killed also some civilians.
Spigel's article wrote:Gerda Meczulat survived heavily wounded, because the soldier who wanted to shoot hear aimed inaccurately. She was the only survivor.
So he was not an officer but a soldier (Soldat)? But you previously wrote that
Kentaurus wrote:Gerda Meczulat clearly identified her attacker as a Soviet officer
You yourself translated it
ZDF wrote:"I was the last person out, I stumbled and then fell. In that moment the [Soviet] officer shot at me from behind."
So she was unable to identify a person that shot in her direction or even a weapon that was used (rifle or pistol).
Spigel's article wrote:When the Wehrmacht took back the community of 637 souls on the next day...
It is a mistake (probably not the only mistake). It is well known that the village was recaptured by German troops later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemmersdorf
wikipedia wrote:In the morning 21st October Soviet tanks of the 2-nd battalion of the 25 armoured brigade started to roll from Gumbinnen. At 7.30 o'clock of this day the massacre was over already. On the 23rd October regiments of the German 5 armoured division recapture the place.
Spigel's article wrote:...they found at least two dozen corpses of women, children and elder men. Red Army soldiers had shot them or bashed in their heads.


As we know the claim that many women were raped was false. So these "evidences" by Göbbels appointed investigators are unreliable. By the way there were "French POWs" among the killed. Frau Gerda Meczulat hadn't mentioned them and probably they were killed by Germans to expose "Soviet atrocities".

So now we see that:

Soviet troops captured Nemmersdorf 21 October morning.
Some German civilians were ordered to leave their shelter.
Soviet troops had been fired and some civilians could be killed, one woman wounded.
There were 2 days of fierce battles in the area. German troops used heavy gun-fire, tanks, aviation.
Many cililians could be killed during these attacks (some could escape).
German troops captured the village 23 October.

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#43

Post by tigersqn » 18 May 2006, 15:21

Sergey wrote: Probably Soviet soldiers ........

Probabaly advancing German troops ........


(probably not the only mistake)........

.....and probably they were killed by Germans ........

You make an awful lot of assumptions here don't you think ??

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#44

Post by Sergey » 18 May 2006, 16:41

Tigersqn!

At least in one place it is not my assumption
Sergey wrote:Probably Soviet soldiers needed this improvised bunker for militiary puposes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemmersdorf
A number of soldiers found an improvised bunker, occupied by 14 men and women.
Let's look at this source further
Bernhard Fisch in his book Nemmersdorf, October 1944. What actually happened in East Prussia (the first book to also include the Russian view of the event) was the first to present this picture of the events. Fisch, an East Prussian and a soldier at the time, had been in Nemmersdorf a few days after it was re-taken, and remembered a totally different scene from the one depicted by the Wochenschau. He interviewed many witnesses still alive on both sides (eg Soviet general Galitsky) and crossing out faulty memories against each other, he found out some disturbing details: the German army itself was reponsible for destroying the strong German defensive position in front of Nemmersdorf (so the whole affair may even have been a trap, planned from the very start) and after the event, no attempt had been made to identify the photographed victims by name. He was able to conclude that some victims on the photographs were from other East Prussian villages and that the notorious crucifixion barn doors were not in Nemmersdorf. The Russian soldiers at Nemmersdorf did not have the time to rape or crucify victims.

The actual number of executed German civilian victims has been claimed to be as low as 23 or even 13

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#45

Post by David Thompson » 18 May 2006, 22:27

Sergey -- Because Wikipedia entries are provided by readers who may or may not be well-informed or present a balanced point of view, it is not a favored source of information here. The quality of the Wikipedia entries are too uneven.

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