What German village can be regarded as German Oradour

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Sergey
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#46

Post by Sergey » 19 May 2006, 07:15

David Thompson wrote:Sergey -- Because Wikipedia entries are provided by readers who may or may not be well-informed or present a balanced point of view, it is not a favored source of information here. The quality of the Wikipedia entries are too uneven.
Dear mr.Thompson!

I'm well aware about this feature of Wikipedia. However the book written by Bernhard Fisch exists (though not available on-line on the Web). Anybody can read it and check facts.

Anyway, my intention was to show that even "unrefutable" evidences of the witness could be intepreted in another way. It was my main point. As for the reference to Wikipedia then it was only a demostration that there exist well established investigation by Bernhard Fisch that should be taken into account.

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#47

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 19 May 2006, 07:30

Yes , a "well-based" "investigation" by a "unbiased" author ...

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv01/101yy44.htm

Jan-Hendrik


Sergey
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#48

Post by Sergey » 19 May 2006, 10:00

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Yes , a "well-based" "investigation" by a "unbiased" author ...

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv01/101yy44.htm

Jan-Hendrik
Dear Jan-Hendrik!

It is a very hard thing to find absolutely unbiased author, moreover in such a sensitve matter. However we should analyse all arguments, all suggestions.

Bernhard Fisch claims that those who died in Neemersdorf were not identified by names. If mr.Fisch is wrong then the list with names of alleged victims must exist.

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv/47aa15.htm
Als merkwürdig stuft er ein, daß bislang niemand sich der Mühe unterzogen habe, die Leichen auf dem Fotomaterial vom Oktober 1944 zu identifizieren.
Translation (correct me if it is wrong)
It is strange but nobody so far troubled to identify the corpses in the photo material taken October 1944

Sergey
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#49

Post by Sergey » 02 Jun 2006, 09:59

Dear Kentaurus!

Let's look at this article, let's analyse its content.

http://www.webarchiv-server.de/pin/arch ... 01ob06.htm
Zur Bekrдftigung des von ihm suggerierten Verdachtes, daЯ die Russen „nur“ gemordet hдtten, aber nicht vergewaltigt, fьhrt Guido Knopp „Gerda Meczulat, die einzige heute noch lebende Augenzeugin“, an. Detailliert schildert er ihre schreckliche Begegnung mit der Roten Armee: „Gerda Meczulat und ihr Vater, der an diesem Tag 71 Jahre alt wurde, suchten … in einem fьr die Dorfbewohner am Kanal eingerichteten Unterstand Schutz: in einer groЯen Tunnelrцhre, die mit Stroh ausgelegt und an den Seiten mit Bдnken versehen worden war. Zwцlf weitere Menschen flьchteten sich wie sie dorthin, darunter auch vier Kinder. Wдhrend die Dorfbewohner im Bunker um ihr Leben bangten, entbrannte ьber ihnen ein unnachgiebiger und verlustreicher Stellungskampf. … Wдhrend einer der Gefechtspausen wagte es Vater Meczulat, den Unterstand noch einmal zu verlassen, um in sein Haus zurьckzukehren: ,Es war unheimlich still drauЯen, kein SchuЯwechsel war mehr zu hцren‘, erzдhlt Gerda Meczulat. ,Mein Vater sagte: ,Ich gehe jetzt und koche uns Kaffee.‘ Wir hatten noch nicht einmal gefrьhstьckt und er brauchte ja nur die StraЯe zu ьberqueren. Nach einer ganzen Weile kam er tatsдchlich mit frischem Kaffee und Schnitten wieder und sagte: ,Das Dorf ist voller Russen.‘“ Die Sowjets hatten den alten Mann nach Waffen durchsucht und wieder laufen lassen. Immer noch hofften die Menschen in der Tunnelrцhre, mit heiler Haut davonzukommen. Als am spдten Nachmittag die deutsche Luftwaffe einen schweren Angriff flog, waren die Rotarmisten selbst gezwungen, Schutz zu suchen - und drangen schlieЯlich in den Bunker ein. Die Sowjets lieЯen die ьberraschten Dorfbewohner zunдchst unbehelligt. Einige spielten sogar mit den anwesenden Kindern. Erst gegen Abend kam es zu einem verhдngnisvollen Zwischenfall: Im Bunker erschien ein hцherer Offizier und begann mit den Soldaten eine heftige Auseinandersetzung. SchlieЯlich befahl er den Zivilisten, den Unterstand zu verlassen. Gerda Meczulat erinnert sich an die schrecklichsten Minuten ihres Lebens: ,Der Offizier blieb vorne am Eingang stehen. Und dann hieЯ es immer: ,Paschol, paschol!‘ Als wir heraustraten, stand der ganze Abhang zu beiden Seiten des Ausgangs voller Russen - mit Maschinenpistolen. Ich hцrte Schьsse und dann nur noch das Rцcheln der Erschossenen.‘ Gerda Meczulat, die seit ihrem siebten Lebensjahr an Kinderlдhmung leidet, verlieЯ den Unterstand als Letzte. Dabei stolperte sie und fiel. Nun trat der russische Offizier von hinten an sie heran, legte die Pistole an ihren Kopf und schoЯ. Die Kugel zerfetzte ihren Kiefer und trat ьber dem Jochbein wieder aus. Wie durch ein Wunder ьberlebte die junge Frau - als Einzige.“
Alas, I don't speak German so I would like to make comments on a base of automatic translation
Gerda Meczulat and their father, which became 71 years old on this day, looked for … in a shelter furnished for the village inhabitants at the channel protection: in a large tunnel tube, which had been laid out with straw and provided at the sides with banks. Twelve further humans fled themselves like it there, among them also four children. While the village inhabitants in the shelter feared for their life, an unyielding and involving heavy losses position fight was inflamed over them. … during one that engagements tracing dared it father Meczulat to leave the shelter again in order to return to its house:
So we should agree that there were heavy fightings in and around the village. That the civilians found an improvised bunker that could be used for military purposes.
It was terribly quietly outside, no shooting was more to hear ‘, tells Gerda Meczulat. , My father said: , I go now and cook for us coffee.‘ we had not even had breakfast and it needed only the road to cross. After a whole while it actually came back with fresh coffee and cuts and said: , The village is full Russians.‘ “ the Soviets had the old man scanned for weapons and again run to let.
Nothing wrong there.
Still humans in the tunnel tube hoped to get off sound skin. When in the late afternoon Luftwaffe flew a heavy attack, the Red Army soldiers themselves were forced to look for protection - and finally penetrated into the shelter.
What is your proposition? Maybe you think that Soviet soldiers had to die then they had a good shelter? The civilians could flee from the village, while the soldiers had to defend their positions.
The Soviets left the surprised village inhabitants first undisturbed. Some played even with the present children. Only against evening it came to a fatal incident: In the shelter a higher officer appeared and began with the soldiers a violent argument. Finally it instructed the civilians to leave the shelter. Gerda Meczulat remembers the most terrible minutes of its life: , The officer stopped in front at the entrance . And then it always meant: ,Go, go!‘ as we out-stepped, stood the whole slope to both sides of the exit of full Russians - with submachine guns.
Nothing wrong there too. In such a situation civilians must obey orders. It is a war by the way and Hitler unleashed it.
I heard shots
It could be shots made by German soldiers aiming at Soviet ones.
and then only the Röcheln of the shooting.‘ Gerda Meczulat, which suffers since its sieved Lebensjahr at child paralysis, left the shelter as the latter. It stolperte and fell. Now the Russian officer came closer from the rear to it, put the pistol to its head and shot. The ball zerfetzte their Kiefer and stepped over the yoke leg. As by a miracle the young woman survived - as only one.“
So Gerda Meczulat hadn't seen that namely Soviet soldiers killed any civilian, she hadn't seen who namely shot in her direction. If he was a Soviet officer that put the pistol to a head then it is impossible to survive in this situation. It is a clear contradiction.

It would be logical to suppose that some civilians were really killed during fightings, in a crossfire.

Simon Orchard
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#50

Post by Simon Orchard » 02 Jun 2006, 14:13

If he was a Soviet officer that put the pistol to a head then it is impossible to survive in this situation
Nope. People do survive massacres. Even being shot in the head, that's how some of the most important eye witness testimony to some killings has come to light.

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#51

Post by David Thompson » 02 Jun 2006, 16:01

A post from Kentaurus, containing insulting comments about another poster, was deleted by the moderator pursuant to warnings previously posted at:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 928#885928
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 412#752412
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 871#724871
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 737#682737

The forum and section rules on civility are posted for all to see at:

H&WC Section Rules
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=53962

Sergey
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#52

Post by Sergey » 02 Jun 2006, 21:41

Simon Orchard wrote:
If he was a Soviet officer that put the pistol to a head then it is impossible to survive in this situation
Nope. People do survive massacres. Even being shot in the head, that's how some of the most important eye witness testimony to some killings has come to light.
Dear Simon!

Yes it is possible. But it is also possible that German soldiers shot in that direction. Have we any ground to speak about a massacre? I'm not sure. Let's look:

1. Gerda Meczulat hasn't seen the killing of the civilians. She only heard shots. It is a quate natural thing during a war, during a fierce combat.

2. She hasn't seen killed civilians. At least she doesn't mention it.

3. She thinks that she was shot by Soviet soldier/officer but it is only her opinion. She hasn't seen the moment of shooting.

So testimonies give by Gerda Meczulat can't be used as a proof that unlawfull killings took place. Of course I haven't a proof that it didn't take place.

There exists a presumption of innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. I don't see a proof that Soviet soldiers are guilty. It is not a proof, I see only opinions, suppositions, theories, fantasies, baseless claims.

Such a pity that the post sent by our friend Kentaurus was deleted. Probably he was delighted that now he knows the truth about events in Nemmersdorf. He likely expressed his feeling a bit too emotionally and of cour he should be foregiven.

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#53

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 02 Jun 2006, 23:34

Your speculations are getting ridicoulous ...

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv04/444yy55.htm

Jan-Hendrik

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#54

Post by David Thompson » 03 Jun 2006, 07:02

Sergey -- You wrote:
1. Gerda Meczulat hasn't seen the killing of the civilians. She only heard shots. It is a quate natural thing during a war, during a fierce combat.

2. She hasn't seen killed civilians. At least she doesn't mention it.

3. She thinks that she was shot by Soviet soldier/officer but it is only her opinion. She hasn't seen the moment of shooting.

So testimonies give by Gerda Meczulat can't be used as a proof that unlawfull killings took place.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from the facts, particularly since the last thing Ms. Meczulat says she saw before being shot in the head was herself and her fellow villagers surrounded by Soviet soldiers -- a material fact you omitted to mention.
There exists a presumption of innocence. Innocent until proven guilty. I don't see a proof that Soviet soldiers are guilty. It is not a proof, I see only opinions, suppositions, theories, fantasies, baseless claims.

There is a presumption of innocence in a criminal trial against specific accused persons. This isn't a criminal trial. Your own argument has consisted of "opinions, suppositions, theories, fantasies, [and] baseless claims," so our readers may not be impressed by your projection of identical qualities onto the arguments of those who disagree with you. The readers are free to draw their own conclusions from your comment "I don't see a proof that Soviet soldiers are guilty," coupled with the accounts we have seen here.

You also said:
Such a pity that the post sent by our friend Kentaurus was deleted. Probably he was delighted that now he knows the truth about events in Nemmersdorf. He likely expressed his feeling a bit too emotionally and of cour he should be foregiven
Given your argument's implausible spin, it is unlikely that many of our readers think they know the truth about events in Nemmersdorf as a result of this thread. Frankly, Kentaurus appeared to be the better-informed of the two of you. The remainder of your sentiments are off-topic. If you'd like to discuss them, start a separate thread. Please don't try slipping similar off-topic sentiments into your posts again.

Sergey
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#55

Post by Sergey » 03 Jun 2006, 21:13

Dear mr.Thompson!

Let's agree, that if we have facts (testimonies) and there exist two explanation of these facts (testimonies) and both don't contradict to the facts (testimonies) then both explanations should be regarded as valid versions.

I was told that Soviet soldiers unlawfully killed the civilians in Nemmersdorf. I don't say that it was impossible. It was possible. Moreover, sadly, thousands cases of unlawfull killing took place that time, took place later during another wars.

I propose another version: In Nemmersdorf one woman was wounded by unknown person(s) and a fate of others is unknown. We don't know for sure that other civilians in the shelter were killed. There is no a list of killed civilians in Nemmersdorf. Let's look at father of Frau Gerda. What is his fate? Was he killed that day? Had Frau Gerda seen his body? They are reasonable questions. How we even can speak about killings if we don't know that even one person was killed?
David Thompson wrote:Sergey -- You wrote:
1. Gerda Meczulat hasn't seen the killing of the civilians. She only heard shots. It is a quate natural thing during a war, during a fierce combat.

2. She hasn't seen killed civilians. At least she doesn't mention it.

3. She thinks that she was shot by Soviet soldier/officer but it is only her opinion. She hasn't seen the moment of shooting.

So testimonies give by Gerda Meczulat can't be used as a proof that unlawfull killings took place.

Your conclusion doesn't follow from the facts, particularly since the last thing Ms. Meczulat says she saw before being shot in the head was herself and her fellow villagers surrounded by Soviet soldiers -- a material fact you omitted to mention.
OK. Frau Gerda saw the villagers surrounder by Soviet soldiers. There is a quite natural explanation. They waited then the shelter would be empty to hide there. This version doesn't contradict the testimony that you kindly mentioned.
David Thompson wrote:There is a presumption of innocence in a criminal trial against specific accused persons. This isn't a criminal trial.
The process of establishing of historical truth has much in common with criminal trials. Of course you are free to believe that in any fairy tales. I prefer to see facts and accept only facts.
David Thompson wrote:Your own argument has consisted of "opinions, suppositions, theories, fantasies, [and] baseless claims," so our readers may not be impressed by your projection of identical qualities onto the arguments of those who disagree with you.
The situation is assymetrical. My opponents try to prove something. It is possible only using facts. "Opinions, suppositions, theories, fantasies, baseless claims" can't be used in PROOF.

By contrast your obedient servant doesn't try to prove anything. I have my version. I don't know is it true or not. I don't try to prove that it happened exactly that way. I show only that my version doesn't contradict facts and testimonies by Frau Gerda. In construction of my version I'm free to use any suppositions that don't contradict the testimonies.
David Thompson wrote:The readers are free to draw their own conclusions from your comment "I don't see a proof that Soviet soldiers are guilty," coupled with the accounts we have seen here.
Indeed I don't see a firm proof because I constructed a possible version of the events that doesn't contradict facts. Show me a contradiction and that's all.
David Thompson wrote:Frankly, Kentaurus appeared to be the better-informed of the two of you.
It is possible. I don't claim that I'm better informed. But I don't see even one fact that contradicts my version. If indeed our respected friend Kentaurus is so well informed then he apparently forgot to deliver his knowledge.

Dear mr.Thompson! Previously on this thread you wrote
David Thompson wrote:Our readers are intelligent enough to distinguish between good and bad arguments, so leave it at that.
Couldn't agree more.

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#56

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jun 2006, 04:19

Sergey -- You wrote:
How we even can speak about killings if we don't know that even one person was killed?
These quotes may help. They were purportedly taken from German archives, reproduced in the work "Nemmersdorf: Ein Dorf wurde ausgerottet - Berichte aus amtlichen Archiven" (A village exterminated - As reported in Official Archives), published by the Pressedienst der Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen (January 22, 1970), and translated into English for a lurid article -- Red Genocide in German Village by Austin J. App (April 15, 1970) at http://www.geocities.com/avflf/RedTerror_1.htm
We know what happened in Nemmersdorf only because the German army drove the Reds out again before the dead and mutilated civilians had been removed. The eye-witnesses we have are after the event, they tell us what they found after Ehrenberg's "gallant heroes" had come and gone.

One such testified on July 5, 1946, before an American tribunal in Neu-Ulm. He was the former chief of staff of the East Prussian Fourth Army, Major General Dethleffsen. He said:
When in October, 1944, Russian units temporarily entered Nemmersdorf, they tortured the civilians, specifically they nailed them to barn doors, and then shot them. A large number of women were raped and then shot. During this massacre, the Russian soldiers also shot some fifty French prisoners of war. Within forty-eight hours the Germans re-occupied the area.
Another, a first lieutenant of the reserves, Dr. H. Amberger, chief of a counter-attacking parachute company, declared under oath:
The rumours regarding Russian massacre of civilians I saw fully confirmed. On the road through Nemmersdorf, near the bridge over the brook Angerapp, I saw where a whole trek of refugees had been simply roller over by Russian tanks; not only the wagons and teams, but a goodly number of civilians, mostly women and children had been squashed flat by the tanks. At the edge of the road and in the farm yards lay quantities of corpses of civilians who apparently had not been killed in battle but murdered systematically.

At the edge of a street an old woman sat hunched up, killed by a bullet in the neck. Near her lay a baby, killed by a shot at close range through the forehead. A number of men, with no other marks of fatal wounds, had been killed by blows in the face with shovels or gun butts; their faces were completely bashed in. At lest one was nailed to a barn door.

Not only in Nemmersdorf itself but also in the nearby places between Angerapp and Rominten, when they were cleared by German counter-attacks, similar cases were noted [of people nailed to doors]. Neither in Nemmersdorf nor in the other villages did I find a single living German civilian, despite the fact that the Russian invasion was so much of a surprise that no appreciable number of civilians could have fled ...
From Koenigsberg, the chief of the reserve was sent with his company to Nemmersdorf for clean-up operations. His report is in the official archives:
In the farmyard near the Gasthaus Weisser Krug stood a rack wagon. To it, in a cruciform position, were four naked women nailed through their hands. Behind this Inn, towards Gumbinnen, is a square with a monument to the Unknown Soldier. Beyond it is another large Inn, Roter Krug. Near it, parallel with the road, was a hey barn. To each of its two doors a woman was nailed through the hands, dead, in a crucified posture.

Then in the dwellings we found seventy two women, including children, and one old man, 74, all dead, nearly all murdered in a bestial manner, except only for a few who had bullet holes in their necks. Some children in diapers had their heads bashed in. In one room we found a woman, over 80, sitting on a sofa, half of her head had been sheared off with an axe or a spade.
The reserve officer from Koenigsberg continues his awesome report:
We carried the corpses to the cemetery where they lay three days to await a foreign medical commission. In the mean time, a nurse from Insterburg came, a native of Nemmersdorf, who looked for her parents. Among the corpses were her mother, 72, and her father, 74, the only man amongst the dead. She also established that all the dead were from Nemmersdorf.

On the fourth day the bodies were buried in two graves. Only on the following day did the medical commission arrived, and the tombs had to be re-opened. Barn doors were set on blocks on which to lay the bodies so that the commission could examine them. This foreign commission unanimously established that all the women, as well as the girls from eight to twelve years, had been raped. Not even the woman 84 years old had been spared.

After the examination by the commission, the bodies were again buried.
* * * * *
The Captain of the German Reserves, Herminghaus, reported:
When the German troops re-occupied Nemmersdorf, a frightful scene greeted them. This, for the first time, showed the German people what everyone had to expect who fell into the hands of the Red Army. All the women surprised in the village, including several nuns, had been herded together, then abused and raped. They were cut up bestially, and stabbed to death or shot.

This surpassed in barbarism anything the German Wehrmacht had so far experienced in any of its far flung battle areas. The Army immediately invited the neutral press. Reporters from Switzerland and Sweden, also Spaniards and Frenchmen, came to witness the frightful scene.

In one culvert, women with their children and also old men had hidden themselves. When the Red soldiers discovered them, they shot into them with machineguns, and then threw hand grenades on them. In Nemmersdorf 60, in the Schulzenwalde area 95 murdered victims were found.
There are also newsreels and still photographs of some of the victims, which I have seen in television documentaries. Not even Bernhard Fisch, mentioned by you in your post at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 323#899323 , claims that no civilians were killed at Nemmersdorf, although he raises questions about the identity of the murderers.

For these reasons, asking a frivolous question like:
How we even can speak about killings if we don't know that even one person was killed?
falls short of the standards of informed discussion readers are used to and expect to see in the H&WC section.

For interested readers -- Corrective measures by the Soviet Army against criminal behavior generally can be seen in the thread "Soviet army in Germany in Soviet documents" at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=10551

Sergey
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#57

Post by Sergey » 04 Jun 2006, 05:29

Dear mr.Thompson!

Previously you wrote:
David Thompson wrote:Frankly, Kentaurus appeared to be the better-informed of the two of you.
And our frient Kentaurus wrote on this thread that according to testimony by Gerda Meczulat civilian women in Nemmersdorf were not raped.

Let's look closely at your source. Two former german officers repeated version of Göbbels propaganda. Are they reliable wittnesses? Not sure. By contrast Gerda Meczulat is a reliable wittness. If she would say that she saw by own eyes that Soviet soldiers killed the civilians then I would accept it.

There is another possibility. SS "prepared" the place, "decorated" the village by bodies of PoWs and non-Germans murderd by SS and later German troops saw the staged "massacre".

As for the nurse "from Nemmersdorf" that "recognized" her parents then she likefy was from SS too. Let's look at this episode.
...a nurse from Insterburg came, a native of Nemmersdorf, who looked for her parents. Among the corpses were her mother, 72, and her father, 74, the only man amongst the dead. She also established that all the dead were from Nemmersdorf.

On the fourth day the bodies were buried in two graves.
The bodies were burried in two mass graves. So the nurse allowed that her parent were burried in mass graves? Absurd.

As for the mentioned alleged traffic acident then unfortunately there was a lot of then during war time. Recently a lot of were be killed due to failed brakes in a military vehicle in Baghdad.

Sorry, but I was unable to continue this interesting discussion several days. Today I fly to Sochi from Moscow and will work in road tonnel in this area (I'm a specialist in industrial automation).

Regards!

Sergey
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#58

Post by Sergey » 04 Jun 2006, 05:44

Jan-Hendrik wrote:Your speculations are getting ridicoulous ...

http://www.jf-archiv.de/archiv04/444yy55.htm

Jan-Hendrik
Dear Jan-Hendrik!

Let's look at your source.
Goebbels returned in its diary four times in particular to Nemmersdorf.
Yes, very 'reliable' wittness.
The British State Department made itself the representation too own, and still the USA plaintiffs in the Nürnberger process considered the Nemmersdorf reports falsified (“faked”).
I haven't causes not to believe it. No doubt that British and American investifators examined this case and the results of their investigations are trustfull.
In the Soviet historiography Nemmersdorf takes only small area , a little more in memoirs of war veterans.
The author of the article is not well informed. On this thread I placed quotes from a book with detailed description of baalis in and around Nemmersdorf.

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#59

Post by David Thompson » 04 Jun 2006, 06:36

Sergey -- I do not propose to argue with you about what happened at Nemmersdorf. I am telling you, as a moderator, that the form of argument you are using is unacceptable here. The purpose of the forum is to hold informed discussions based on actual verifiable facts. It is clear from your posts that you have none, and know little about the subject. It does not serve the informational purposes of the forum to allow naive or disinformative denials of what is known and easily established, which is what you did when you asked:
How we even can speak about killings if we don't know that even one person was killed?

We're not fond of deceitful omissions of material fact in our discussions; mere speculations, pettifogging and agitprop have no place here either. Consider this post a warning. If you persist in these practices, which undermine the purpose of the research sections of the forum, your posts will be deleted.

Sergey
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#60

Post by Sergey » 04 Jun 2006, 15:12

Dear mr.Thompson!
David Thompson wrote:Sergey -- I do not propose to argue with you about what happened at Nemmersdorf.
OK. Let's close this theme.
David Thompson wrote:I am telling you, as a moderator, that the form of argument you are using is unacceptable here.
So my arguments are reasonable but their form is unacceptable. Of course it is your right to decide what is acceptable. By the way my Grandfather was killed in the last day of Stalingrad battle. Both my grandmothers had killed brothers. Should their memory be respected? They can't defend themselves now.
David Thompson wrote:The purpose of the forum is to hold informed discussions based on actual verifiable facts.
...and discuss - could some supposition be regarded as proven verifiable facts.
David Thompson wrote:It is clear from your posts that you have none, and know little about the subject.
We have to agree to disagree there. I quoted (on this thread) a book (in Russian) where battles in and around Nemmersdorf was mentioned. I strongly doubt that many read this book. So my posts would be helpfull for those that are interesting in the subject. Our friend Kentaurus thought that there were no military operations, fightings in Nemmersdorf. It appears that I'm better informed and I hope that this information is interesting for many. I hope you agree that I delivered sufficient data to prove that there were fierce battles in and around Nemmersdorf.
David Thompson wrote:It does not serve the informational purposes of the forum to allow naive or disinformative denials of what is known and easily established, which is what you did when you asked:
How we even can speak about killings if we don't know that even one person was killed?
It is not so naive question as you try to present it. Of course I meant civilians unlawfully killed by Soviet troops in Nemmersdorf. Do you mean that it is a well established and proven fact? Established by whom? By Goebbels propaganda? Have I right to deny Goebbels propaganda?
David Thompson wrote:We're not fond of deceitful omissions of material fact in our discussions; mere speculations, pettifogging and agitprop have no place here either. Consider this post a warning. If you persist in these practices, which undermine the purpose of the research sections of the forum, your posts will be deleted.
I hadn't initiate a discussion about Nemmersdorf. Each time I replayed on posts where I saw rather suppositions than proven facts. I'm a professional mathematician Ph.Dr. and apparently my style of thinking is something new for you.

I asure you that I will obey your orders. However, it would be fair to give me right to replay on (baseless from my point of view) accusations that insult memory of my Grandfather and other relatives that are not based on proven facts.

Warmest regards from the city of Sochi!

PS. It is on Black sea coast. +31C, water +24C.

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