Crime comitted by the russians

Georg_S · #1

against German civilians from feb 1945 to dec 1946.

Is there anyonelse who can give more info on this?
Below is a list of all killed in some way by the russians during that period.

Best reg.

Georg

Totenliste von Albrechtsdorf

Nach dem Einmarsch der Roten Armee um den 5./6. Februar 1945 und der Deportation der deutschen Bevölkerung am 15. Dezember 1946 sind folgende Leute aus den verschiedensten Ursachen in Albrechtsdorf verstorben, erschossen worden oder haben sich das Leben genommen.

Diese Liste der Toten in Albrechtsdorf, nach dem Einmarsch der Roten Armee im Februar 1945 bis zur Vertreibung der deutschen Bevölkerung im Dezember 1946, habe ich erhalten von Frau Elly Xxxxxx geb.Pxxxx aus Albrechtsdorf/ Kr.Pr.Eylau.)

1 Frau Klein (Maurer)
2 Walter Schulz (Lehrer) erschossen in Neuendorf, bei Pr.Eylau.
3 Ernst Prang erschossen
4 Minna Prang (Ehefrau v. Nr. 3)
5 August Hegen
6 Friedrich Knorr
7 Frau Knorr (Altsitzer)
8 Hermann Rogall (Rednauer Weg)
9 Gottfried Schiemann
10 Karl Krause (Ulan)
11 Frau Block
12 Frau Nagelpusch
13 Friedrich Nagelpusch
14 Herta Nagelpusch
15 Otto Schwarz
16 Berta Politt (wohnte in Richtung Tappelkeim)
17 Frau Georg Liedtke
18 Wilhelmine Zilian
19 Friedrich Hans
20 Frau Hans (Maurer)
21 Frau Langhans (Schneider)
22 Frau Therese Zipprick
23 Rudolf Krause
24 Frl. Minna Groß
25 Friedrich Tietz
26 Anna Tietz
27 Frau Klein (Armenhaus)
28 Kind von Elise Radtke (Oltersdorf)
29 Frau Auguste Krause (Post)
30 Wilhelm Strauß (Rumgänger)
31 Frl Minna Prang (Schneiderin)
32 Karl Neumann (Schmiedemeister)
33 Frau Neumann, Ehefrau v. Nr. 32 (Schmiede)
34 Frau Amalie Hegen
35 Anna Glaubitz
36 Frau Hermann Liedtke II. geb. Auguste Langhans
37 Friedrich Holz, auf d.Flucht in Westpreußen verstorb.
38 Berta Holz, Schwester von Nr. 37
39 Gustav Albrecht, Knecht b.Nr.37, erschossen in Albrechtsdorf
40 Karl Neumann (Febr. 1945 erschossen am Stall)
41 Minna Neumann (seine Frau, sie ist später verstorben)
42 Frau Otto Langanke (wohnte am Weg nach Worglitten)
43 Kind Langanke (wohnte im Hieskerfeld)
44 August Babbel
45 Frau Mayer (Schwiegermutter v.Elfert)
46 Otto Langhans
47 Frau Langhans
48 Maria Wölk
49 Karl Reimann
50 Gertrud Gänzer (Schwester von Nr.88)
51 Margarete Krause
52 Elfriede Krause
53 Frau Schrotzki (wohnte neben Paul Scheffler)
54 Martha Babbel (Ehefrau von Karl)
55 Gustav Fuhr
56 Fritz Biermann
57 Karl Neumann (gen. Piepke-Neumann)
58 Frau Karl Langanke
59 Frau Böhnke (Frau des Nachtwächters)
60 Frau Bäcker Zipprick (Schwester von Paul Kahl)
61 Herm. Hegen
62 Albert Hill
63 Minna Hill
64 Anna Kirstein (geb.Gänzer)
65 Frl. Johanna Schirrmacher
66 Otto Schmiedt
67 Henriette Scheffler
68 Frau Licht (von Russen erschossen, Nachbarin von Nr. 69)
69 Frau Knoll (von Russen zusammen mit ihrem Sohn erschossen, Nr.70)
70 Erich Knoll , v. Russen zusammen mit seiner Mutter erschossen, (Nr.69)
71 Frau Kiehl
72 Rudolf Schulz (Bruder v. Krüger Max Schulz)
73 Eliese Rosengarth
74 Marta Babbel (Ehefrau v. Gustav Babbel)
75 Herbert Babbel, (Sohn von Nr.75)
76 Kind von Frau Schulz
77 Kind von Ida Zipprick
78 Frau Frank
79 Frau Langhans (Schwiegermutter v.Hermann Liedtke II.)
80 Frau Thon geb.Ramm + 6.1.1946. Mutter v.Nr.84 81 Anna Kiel
82 Sieglinde Walter (Russenkind) 83 August Böhnke (Nachtwächter)
84 Frida Schulz geb.Thon Tochter von Nr.80, Selbstmord in Landsberg
85 Heinrich Krause (gen. Schleiferkrause) hat sich i.d.Brunnen gestürzt.
86 Frau Krause (Schleiferkrause) hat sich, mit ihrem Mann, in den Brunnen gestürzt
87 Edeltraud Matleiß (Russenkind), Kind von Erika Heß
88 Fritz Gänzer (Bruder v.Nr.50)
89 Anna Domnick (Bartenstein)
90 Auguste Liedtke geb Müller
91 Otto Eder
92 Elisabeth Klein (Lieschen Klein b. Krüger Schulz)
93 Martin Frank
94 Frau Steinau (aus Landsberg)
95 Frau Domnick (Bartenstein)
96 Ernst Kirstein
97 Kind v. Walter Wollmann (auf dem Feld erschossen)
98 Berta Potschien (Mutter von Lene Potschien)
99 Frau Rieß (Worglitten)
100 Max Krause (Sand)
101 Frau v. Max Teichert (Sand)
102 Albert Zipprick (Sand)
103 Frau Zipprick (Sand)
104 Liesbeth Zipprick (Albrechtsdorf) wohnte am Pilwer Wald
105 Herm. Krause (Weischnuren)
106 Frau Krause (Weischnuren)
107 Mariechen Glaubitz (Bei der Ankunft des Transportes im Reich gestorben)
108 Frau Gustav Neumann (aus Goldap)

Andreas · #2

Not all of these were killed by the Russians 'in some way'.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas · #3

I would also like to ask you to provide a source from where this list comes, i.e. who is "ich", and an explanation as to why, considering you speak German, you feel the need to deliberately spread misinformation on this forum?

All the best

Andreas

Andreas · #4

Now, for the benefit of those who do not speak German.

This is a list of all the deaths in the town during a period of almost two years. Out of 108, I count only 12 that have an identified cause of death. Of these 12, one died later than her husband, with no cause given. One died on arrival of her transport in Goldap, with no cause given. Three committed suicide. All the others we do not know. So that leaves us with 7 who were clearly killed, and we can infer that they were killed by soldiers of the Red Army, even though that is not always clear. Without knowing the exact circumstances of each of these killings it is again impossible to say whether they were unlawful.

Since the period covers two years, and a very harsh winter in terms of food supplies, it is reasonable to assume that some people died of natural causes. At least I have heard that happens occasionally, and even in small villages it is not unheard of that people sometimes die due to old age, illness, and accidents, even when these villages have not been occupied by the Red Army. In fact, people who are not obsessed with laying blame at the foot of the Red Army realise that death of natural causes is quite an ordinary event. Anyone who doubts that is invited to look at the death notices in today's edition of their home newspaper and tell me how many people died, and how many of those have been killed by the Red Army.

So what we have is the original poster providing a list of names with no sources, and then claiming that all these people were killed by Red Army soldiers, and that all these killings were a crime. This is especially repugnant since the OP does speak German, and has intentionally mistranslated the following "[...]sind folgende Leute aus den verschiedensten Ursachen in Albrechtsdorf verstorben, erschossen worden oder haben sich das Leben genommen." as "[...]a list of all killed in some way by the russians during that period" when it in fact translates as "the following people in Albrechtsdorf died from various causes, were shot, or killed themselves.", which clearly includes the possibility for natural causes and accident as causes of death.

Quite frankly, that kind of posting is so far below the standards expected in this forum that I find it absolutely unacceptable, and unexcusable. It is unsurprising that the OP has not seen fit to respond in any way shape or form.

All the best

Andreas

Ship of Fools · #5

Georg, here is a list of the inhabitants of Albrechtsdorf to assist you in your quest for justice.

http://freenet-homepage.de/helmut.ramm/hopa4.htm

Ship of Fools · #6

And some oral history about the occupation,
http://freenet-homepage.de/helmut.ramm/hopa14.htm
but presumably you have all this as it is the website your deathlist comes from.

michael mills · #7

When the number of persons who died in Albrechtsdorf during the two years under Red Army administration (108) is compared with the total number of dwellings both in the village and its surrounds (159), many of which probably contained persons not listed by name, then the death rate is certainly abnormally high, even though the dead included persons who had come from other localities.

If the total number of persons living in Albrechtsdorf in 1945 was of the order of 1,000, which seems a likely upper limit given the total number of dwellings, then 10% of them died in two years. If we work on the basis of an average of four persons per listed dwelling, that would give a total of 636 persons, of whom almost 17% died over two years.

It is obvious that there was excessive mortality in Albrechtsdorf during the period of Red Army administration, possibly due to malnutrition. Given that the war had ended, there was no longer a blockade of German-oocupied areas, and food aid was flowing into Europe, the question arises whether the excess mortality of the inhabitants of Albrechtsdorf was due to a Soviet policy of severely reducing the supply of food to ethnic Germans in areas that were designated for handover to Poland.

That question of course cannot be answered on the basis of the material available here. Whether a crime against a civilian population was committed would depend on the constraints under which the Red Army was operating, eg the state of the food supply in post-war Poland, the availability of food-aid etc. But the same consideration should also apply to the experience of Soviet villages under wartime German occupation.

Penn44 · #8

michael mills wrote:It is obvious that there was excessive mortality in Albrechtsdorf during the period of Red Army administration, possibly due to malnutrition. Given that the war had ended, there was no longer a blockade of German-oocupied areas, and food aid was flowing into Europe, the question arises whether the excess mortality of the inhabitants of Albrechtsdorf was due to a Soviet policy of severely reducing the supply of food to ethnic Germans in areas that were designated for handover to Poland.

IIRC, the European harvest of 1945 was fairly bad (I think worldwide the 1945 harvest was bad). Also, in the first two years or so after the war German farmers restricted production because of poor prices.

"Food aid was flowing into Europe?" From where? How much of this food was going to Germany? I know that there was widespread hunger in the American sector in 1945-47.

Penn44

.

Andreas · #9

An OT post by Mills was removed.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas · #10

michael mills wrote:But the same consideration should also apply to the experience of Soviet villages under wartime German occupation.

This thread is about a discussion of what happened in Albrechtsdorf. Further OT posts are subject to deletion without warning.

Thank you.

Andreas

Ken S. · #11

Andreas wrote:Quite frankly, that kind of posting is so far below the standards expected in this forum that I find it absolutely unacceptable, and unexcusable. It is unsurprising that the OP has not seen fit to respond in any way shape or form.

Likewise in regards to your responses.

Whatever the motive the OP has, I find the list to be very interesting. The earliest records on my father's side have my ancestors living in/near this very town. My ancestors left in the mid-1800s for the Ukraine, but returned to the Pr. Eylau prior to the First World War and settled not far away from Albrechtsdorf. I'm not sure if they ever re-established contact with some of their now distant relatives; but some of the names in my genealogy charts appear in the directory of landowners for 1945 and in the list above.

I have a book published by the Kreisgemeinschaft that provides histories of the county's settlements. According to this book, the population of Albrechtsdorf in 1933 was 880, and in 1939 it was 842.

Unfortunately, I cannot provide any biographical information for the people that appear on the list. Some are on the list of landowners, or have the same last name. I think the best source of information would be the Kreisgemeinschaft.

In just about every other respect death resulting from deprivations caused by occupying forces is a factor in determining crimes against humanity. That being the case, the use of "killed by the Russians" is not entirely incorrect, but it is certainly not a proper translation.

Cartoon Hero · #12

Hello everyone,

I realize this topic hasn't been replied to for a number of years, but I felt I needed to make a contribution regarding the believability of the OP's claims. I am the great granddaughter of Ernst and Minna Prang (#3 and #4), and I vividly remember the horrible crimes my grandmother and my aunt (their daughters) were forced to witness in Albrechtsdorf. These memories haunted my grandmother until her death. I have no reason to believe that any of these things she told me were lies or exaggerations - the woman had the scars to prove them, and so did her sister who was fortunate enough to die an early death. At this point, I firmly believe that these people were indeed killed by Russian soldiers, simply because I know what happened to Ernst and Minna and their children. I know for a fact that the men were shot without further ado, and that goes for some women, too. Those who somehow managed to escape died on the escape (Ernst was shot immediately, Minna died shortly thereafter... and I never did ask what these men did to the women of my family ...). So while it does look like it's overexaggerated I don't think it is. These Russians shot every man and boy they would find, and many women and children died on the escape (like my great-uncle who was but a toddler and who isn't mentioned in most records I've found) from the Russian soldiers, and died as a direct result of these men's actions.

Ken S. · #13

Thank you for contributing this.

Ken S. · #14

Ship of Fools wrote: ↑
28 Jul 2007, 08:26
Georg, here is a list of the inhabitants of Albrechtsdorf to assist you in your quest for justice.

http://freenet-homepage.de/helmut.ramm/hopa4.htm

Links are broken, so below are the relevant pages from the Ortsippenbuch: