Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#91

Post by seaburn » 21 Apr 2014, 17:25

It was only on starting my research into accusations of war crimes on the Eastern Front against Jochen Peiper recently that I have learnt that Peiper’s III (armoured)/2 btln have been suspected as the perpetrators of Jefremowka since 1945. This accusation has been re-cited in various books on Peiper ever since. I had seen him named personally in a locally sourced document during the course of this investigation but as I was told that much of the testimony was unsafe, I did not pay too much attention to it. All the evidence I had found before and after reading that document has always pointed to Kurt Meyer as the man who ordered the destruction of Jefremowka. He is named in all the POW testimonies that have been uncovered so far except for this one.

The following is a translation of a handwritten statement made by Erich Rumpf (9th Pionier-Kompanie, 1. SS-Panzer-Regiment LSAH) during the investigation into Malmedy in 1945. Although Jefremowka is not named in this piece, I have no doubt that this is where he is referring to as I have been privy to another testimony of Rumpfs in which he admits to being in the village on the morning the order was given by Kurt Meyer. He also mentions Nuske being present just as Walter Fransee does in the testimony above.

Unfortunately I have been unable to track this vital piece of evidence down myself but I do have high hopes that it will be published by a reputable author in the future. In this particular testimony, Rumpf is talking about Peiper’s style of command and he writes as follows:

Peiper, in his military talks, often used the phrase "Auch ein Schlechter Ruf Verplichtet"(A bad reputation has its commitments). Rumpf then continues….”"In what way the other officers understood 'a bad reputation' isn't known to me but me personally I remember one case in Russia in which we lighted up a complete village of about 2000 inhabitants and had to execute all on orders. This crime is surely one of the reasons for the bad reputation of the SS".

Source: Rumpf, Erich: box 5/folder 24 William Perl papers G.W.U. Gelman Library.

I do feel the evidence so far gathered puts the facts beyond dispute, I am not actively looking for any more evidence but if I do find anything else in relation to this investigation I will continue to post. I would ask that others do the same. I have tried in vain to contact people in Ukraine to present all the evidence so far found and to try and ensure that the correct facts are recorded. To date, I have had no response, but I am buoyed by the fact that this forum is in the public domain and accessible to anyone who wishes to search for information on line in the future.

I am happy to discuss or share by PM any of the evidence presented with interested parties in relation to this crime or about Kurt Meyer in general.

(With thanks for help with translation and deciphering to Forum members)
C.B

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#92

Post by seaburn » 22 Apr 2014, 00:09

Picture of Erich Rumpf from the Malmedy trial documents. He admitted to taking part in the killing of civilians and the burning of a village in the 'East' as posted above.
rumpf.jpg
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#93

Post by seaburn » 24 Apr 2014, 16:29

I think its appropriate to finish this investigation with posting this picture of Kurt Meyer. This picture appears on his wiki site, and it was there that my journey started. This investigation was and still is, linked in the notes section of the site, hopefully anyone who wishes to access the evidence will follow that link.

This picture shows him in the Kharkov area with his newly bestowed 'Oak leaves' to his RK, which had been personally presented to him by A.Hitler. The wording of his award on the 20th of February by Sepp Dietrich is interesting, while it is a fact that Meyer had fought against Soviet forces when he left Jefremowka, one wonders what Dietrich is actually alluding to here.......

“In the deployment of the Division in the area of Norefa, SS-Obersturmbannfuhrer Meyer was assigned the task of reaching Jefremowka via Nowaja Wodologa. Despite the resistance of the enemy and the most difficult terrain conditions, he fulfilled the task through his ruthless personal action.
Waffen-SS Knights and their Battles Vol 2’ Peter Mooney (P 49)
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#94

Post by Harro » 01 Jun 2014, 12:10

This is the original text from Meyer's recommendation for the Oakleaves. Note that they made a mistake for 21/2/43, the action that day started from Jeremejewka instead of Jefremowka (which shows the importance of checking and double checking such documents). "ünter rücksichtslosem Einsatz seiner Person", translated by Mooney as "through his ruthless personal action" in such Waffen-SS documents usually means that the person in question was too focused to care about his own personal safety and well being (which was considered a merit in the Waffen-SS).

I usually become a bit suspicious when 1500 killed enemy soldiers are reported but no prisoners are mentioned. I'll have a closer look at the Verlustliste of the AA LAH for this day, but it seems they had very little losses on 17/2/43 which also makes me wonder.
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#95

Post by Harro » 01 Jun 2014, 18:12

The Verlustlisten of the AA LAH give four wounded and one killed for 17/2/43. The wounded came from 3. Kompanie: one with a bullet wound and four with wounds from artillery fire (including one platoon commander). The killed soldier came from 2. Kompanie. I do not have the details on the Panzer-Abteilung but I think it is save to say that killing 1500 enemy soldiers without mention of any POWs, against losing five men of your own is highly suspicious.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#96

Post by eindhoven » 07 Jun 2014, 22:40

I remembered this excellent thread when reading an old 'Personality' article by Patrick Brode in World War II magazine February 1998. The article presented a decent accounting of Kurt Meyer's war crimes trial. As with articles there are no footnotes to reference Brode's quotes or material.

Of particular note in this article:

pg 18
"In the ensuing counterattack, the Soviet offensive was utterly crushed. For Meyer's feats during the counterattack, Hitler personally awarded him the Oak Leaves to his Knight's Cross. But there was a darker side to Meyer's war in the Soviet Union. Some officers recalled his bragging that on one occasion he had allowed his men to be surrounded in the town of Jefremokvka. After they were encircled, they fought their way out and back to their own lines. Before leaving, Meyer and his men systematically slaughtered the civilians. He told other officers that this was the real way to fight the war. "If it were not for the Supreme Command," he said (referring to the overall command of the German military forces), "we should have won the war long ago."

pg 74
"Macdonald rose to cross-examine. Carefully working his way around discrepancies in Meyer's story, Macdonald got him to admit that he was responsible for atrocities on the Eastern Front."

The trial transcripts are available. It would be interesting to reference, as Im inclined to believe Brode did, whether that direct was in reference to Jefremokvka. If so, you have Meyer's admission on the witness stand in a court of law.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#97

Post by seaburn » 07 Jun 2014, 23:40

Thank you 'Eindhoven' for your post.

The testimony Brode is referring to on page 18 of his book was the overheard conversation of German captive Muller-Rienzburg. His testimony is included in file ref. TS26/856-45 and is posted on the first page of this thread. Its interesting that Brode claims he mentioned the name of the village as this information does not appear in the document in this file. But on a subsequent page of the same file, Jakob Hanreich (LSAH) does mention it by name. I suspect that Brode has made this connection between the two testimonies himself. It is also interesting the Meyer admitted to 'crimes on the Eastern Front' at his trial. I would doubt very much though that this referred to civilian deaths, but was possibly an admission of the execution after capture of Soviet forces. Meyer totally denied in all his interrogations that he or his men ever killed civilians.

I am satisfied that there has been no evidence other than a discredited local document that has ever pointed to anyone other than Kurt Meyer as being responsible for the atrocity at Jefremowka.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#98

Post by seaburn » 14 Aug 2014, 00:48

I have been in correspondence with a local Historian/author from the Kharkov area in relation to my search for any evidence against J Peiper and his ‘blowtorch’ Btln. During the course of our correspondence, this investigation into the events in Jefremowka in February ‘43 been discussed at length. As my contact doesn't speak English and I don’t speak Russian, it has been difficult to convey and translate the full evidence uncovered. My contact has raised some doubt as to my findings due to his high standards of evidence gathering. I feel it is important to raise his doubts here as all evidence whether it agrees or disagrees with my findings should be aired.

His main negative points are as follows:

(1) The authorities in Ukraine will not acknowledge the date of the atrocity (reason unknown) and therefore the villagers themselves have raised the memorial privately with the date of February 17th 1943 inscribed on it.

(2) The village was a target on more than one occasion during the war, chiefly in early March ‘43 when elements of ‘Das Reich’ engaged with Soviet forces during the offensive of the 3rd battle of Kharkov. The fact that ‘Das Reich’ had been able to take shelter in the village had raised suspicions that all the houses had not been destroyed in February. There were a smaller number of deaths in the village at that time, but he concludes these were results of ‘collateral damage’ due to the intense fighting between the two forces. There was also some evidence that the village was bombed by the Luftwaffe and was a target of German forces in ‘41 and ‘42.

(3) While he accepts evidence that men were burnt in the church in Jefremowka and Semenivka on the 17th of February due to the villagers collusion with Soviet forces, there is reason to believe that it was the population of the neighbouring village of Semenivka who were slaughtered and not the villagers of Jefremowka.

(4) He is overly cynical of evidence given by men under interrogation.

(5) He believes that Kurt Meyer may not be the person who authorised this action as he may have been taking orders from above including from Kumm of ‘Das Reich’. He questions whether Meyer can be singled out in the ‘confusion of war’ scenario.

(6) The notorious ‘local document’ has many different events described that contradict some of the testimonies of the POWs.

This is what I can ascertain are his major points. My rebuttals are as follows:

(1) Meyers presence in the village on February 17th is confirmed by Lehmann’s records and POW testimonies which mention the encirclement and relief coupled with the atrocity in the village can be dated to this time period.

(2) I have no argument against the notion that the village was a target on more than one occasion, this would account for the garbled testimonies in the ‘local document’ which appear contradictory and yet have elements that match the German POWs testimony. I also believe that some of the houses could have been burnt but many might have remained, the main element of this atrocity has always been the murder of ‘men, women and children’ and not the burning of houses necessarily.

(3) Again, I have no problem accepting this as Semenivka and Jefremowka lie side by side and are indistinguishable from one another (see attached map). It is quite conceivable that men recounting this story would not know where one village started and the other ended.

(4) I would be sceptical of one man's uncorroborated testimony but not when you have so many which all cross reference each other, these cannot be discounted. Couple this with the fact that these testimonies were given at different times by different men who were captured between 1943 and 1944. With the evidence given during the Malmedy investigation, it was not Kurt Meyer the interrogators were interested in as he was already convicted and incarcerated by 1946. Plus the earlier overhead conversations were recorded before Kurt Meyer was a ‘Person of Interest’ to the western Allies and therefore they had no ulterior motive for corrupting this evidence.

(5) There is one element which is recounted by all testimonies, it is that this order was given by Kurt Meyer personally, no other individual was named in relation to this order by any of the accusers. Whether he needed permission from HQ to carry out this action is not known to me.

(6) This document was discredited by two independent forum members who read it (one from Russia/one from Ukraine). They both maintained that it was a confusion of accusations with many culprits named. However this may be down to the fact that the village suffered more than one attack and these testimonies are a collection of many different events. Jochen Peiper was personally named in this document but I am confident of why this error occurred and no other evidence has been uncovered to tie him to this village on this date. In fact the investigation into his actions of the Eastern Front has only turned up more evidence against Kurt Meyer for this atrocity.

I strongly feel that the evidence posted on this thread is more substantial than anything that has been uncovered at local level in Ukraine and that these findings cannot be discounted. As this thread is now quite vast, I will synopsise the evidence so far found and the chain of events that backs up my personal belief that Kurt Meyer ordered the village to be razed on February 17th 1943.


On the morning of February 16th Kurt Meyers reinforced Recon Btln (Aufklärungsabteilung) arrive in the village of Jefremowka. This group included the following elements:

6./Panzerregiment LAH (under Obersturmführer Astherger), 3./Artillerie-Regiment LAH (under Obersturmführer Haack) and 1./Panzerregiment LAH (under Stürmbannfuhrer Wünsche).

Some days previously the 1./Panzerregiment, led by Wünsche had set up a base in Jefremowka. K Meyer had been ordered to Alexejewka, there his group were surrounded and had run out of fuel and also became critically short of ammunition. Wünsche was ordered to mount a rescue mission, he broke through the Soviet lines bringing the much needed supplies and the two groups fought on in Alexejewka before returning to Jefremowka on the morning of the 16th of February. (R. Lehmann V. III Leibstandarte – pages 89-104).

The group spent a ‘peaceful day’ in the village with no encounters with Soviet forces noted (Lehmann page 105)

On the following morning of the 17th February at approx. 10.30am Erich Rumpf hears a pistol shot and is informed by an excited Hauptsturmführer that ‘the village is to be razed’ on the orders of Meyer, he then proceeded to shoot dead the woman who was making their lunch. Rumpf’s commander Nueske hurries off to see if this is true and returns 30 minutes later to confirm that indeed the order had been given by Meyer. Meyer had intoned that they were ‘to act like wild men’ in reprisal for ‘Partisan’ activity in the area. Testimony of Erich Rumpf - NA RG 338 record 143 box 33 (this is an excerpt from a testimony found at NARA by Author Danny Parker, I was not able to find it myself and therefore am unable to produce it in full on this thread, I am hopeful that it will be published by him in one of his forthcoming books).

Also on this day, Fritz Montag, commander of the acting HQ Company was brought to Meyer fully conscious with both his legs blown off above the knee, he had driven over a landmine and died of his wounds three days later. Meyer recounts this incident in his autobiography ‘Grenadiers’ and links it to a new era of distrust with the local population due to their inability to distinguish ‘harmless civilians from Soviet forces’. (Post 12). While it cannot be proved that this was the catalyst for what followed, there is every reason to believe that this is the incident that enraged Meyer sufficiently to issue the order for the village to be razed.

The male population who had been engaged in shovelling snow were brought to a church where a machine gun had been set up, the shots were fired deliberately low. The men at the back were not killed instantly, Meyer called for petrol, had it poured over the injured men and then set them alight. (Post 72)

Walter Fransee following behind with the ‘Troß/supply train’ arrives in the village and is told that all men, women and children have been killed on the orders of ‘Panzermeyer’. Nueske recounts that children had been beaten to death with an iron bar (Post 86).

In the following days, the story of this ‘action’ sweeps through the other LSAH units. Jakob Hanreich hears the story ‘from numerous sources’ and recalls the details, including the village name in two interrogations in 1944 and 1945 (see posts 12 and 66).

Sometime later in England a captured German combatant is overheard telling his room-mates how he had attended a talk in Germany in 1943 in which Kurt Meyer had spoken about an incident on the Eastern Front in which he had been encircled, was relieved and how he destroyed a village, killing every man, woman and child there. (Post 12).

A villager who was 15 at the time spends many years trying to find who had carried out this action, his search leads him to the Malmedy evidence and he believes (erroneously as per the evidence above) that Jochen Peiper had been in command that day. His account of the aftermath of the killing spree makes for very grim reading, but supports Rumpf’s testimony that Meyer had ordered his men to ‘act like wild men’. (Post 81)

The survivors erect a memorial to the dead – the date of this memorial is February 17th 1943. (Post 84)
Jefreseminivka.jpg
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#99

Post by krichter33 » 14 Aug 2014, 01:48

Excellent post! That's wonderful that their is a local historian interested as well in these events! Does he say whom he thinks did this atrocity?

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#100

Post by seaburn » 14 Aug 2014, 08:33

Thanks 'Krichter33' . No, he is reluctant to accept the findings above without more investigation himself. I have seen a small published piece on that net for some years back where he had referenced the local document stating that it was the work of Peiper, but he has never researched this atrocity himself before our conversation. He has written books about this time period but his focus was mainly on the Soviet side and their encounters with 'Das Reich' as far as I can make out. I have handed over all the documents and left it with him, but his major limitation is that he doesn't speak or read English, therefore he's not getting the full appreciation of what's in them. Before our contact, he had none of the information that I have given him. He has confirmed the locals account of the burning of men in the church and the date of February 17th, but he is also interested in the other events that happened to this village on other dates. My investigation is not into the village history but into the allegations against Kurt Meyer on a specific day.

I do understand and accept that he doesn't want to jump to conclusions without checking into it, but as stated above, I feel that any of his objections so far raised don't change the evidence found that unequivocally points to Kurt Meyers guilt. Its important to note that these points were not made by him as a conclusion to his investigation, but were raised from the start. It's also important to note that the evidence published here is much more credible than anything found at local level. But I'm actually past the point of trying to persuade anyone to accept the evidence, I think it speaks for itself and I'm happy that its in the public domain on this forum so that anyone can find it and decide for themselves as to what happened that day.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#101

Post by krichter33 » 15 Aug 2014, 01:49

Based on the evidence you uncovered I'm sure he would probably come to the same conclusion, that Meyer was responsible for this crime. I wonder what else Meyer had done in the East...

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#102

Post by seaburn » 15 Aug 2014, 12:21

krichter33 wrote: I wonder what else Meyer had done in the East...
There were two other accusations that I came across during this investigation. The first was included in the title of this thread - an accusation by a captured POW that he ordered him to shoot 50 Jews in Modlin, Poland in 1939 (Post 11). I couldn't find anything to substantiate that claim and on the basis of that, I have to conclude that there was probably no foundation to it. The second one was more intriguing as it cross referenced another statement in a small detail. It was that KM had murdered civilians in Ukraine in reprisal for the killing of his dog.(post 72). This same reason was mentioned in a file that Stalin ordered to be conducted into Hitler's reign and death and was subsequently published as follows:

"In the fighting near Kherson, the dog that belonged to Sturmbannfuhrer Meyer, commander of the Reconnaissance Bttalion, was killed by shrapnel. To avenge the dead creature, Meyer assembled thirty peaceful inhabitants and shot them with his own hands" - 'The Hitler Book' edited by Henrik Eberle and Matthias Uhl- page 77 (Post 53)

It still surprises me that this incident was thought to be important enough to mention in a file sent to Stalin, when you consider the untold carnage and mass killings that happened on the Eastern front, the crimes against the Jews, Russian POWs, and innocent civilians in their hundreds of thousands - why was he singled out to be personally mentioned !

It was true that the book focused in on the LSAH in particular due to its reputation of being 'Hitler's favourite'. Perhaps it may have just been an example of how this Division was conducting 'business' from the get-go as the incident was supposed to have happened near Kherson in 1941. I have found no other evidence to back this up, I had thought the document seen in Post 72 would be about this incident, but that was clearly set in winter as 'men shovelling snow' were mentioned, not a mere 'six weeks after the invasion'. No POW mentioned this incident in their testimonies, nor could I find any local testimony (albeit without much digging) but as it stands, it cannot be taken as more than an unfounded allegation.

However, it's interesting that KM was personally accused of carrying it out and not that he ordered someone else to do it. If we take his own evidence from 'Grenadiers' we get a picture of a man whose style was always to lead from the front, never asking his men to do anything he wouldn't do himself, therefore in relation to Jefremowka at least,we should be left in no doubt as to his personal involvement in the murder of the civilians that day.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#103

Post by rossmcpharter » 17 Aug 2014, 19:36

Brilliant research Seaburn! I have followed this thread with great interest, it makes his later behaviour in Normandy easier to comprehend.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#104

Post by krichter33 » 18 Aug 2014, 02:25

Yes, Meyer's behavior in Normandy does make a lot more sense after his Eastern Front experience. I wonder if Das Reich and Wiking conducted similar style atrocities in the East as Leibstandarte did? I might have to look into that...

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#105

Post by j keenan » 18 Aug 2014, 07:57

Yes on numerous occasions
Westland part of Wiking 2.7.41 destruction of a village and reprisals against the inhabitants in return for a sniper killing there commander.
Then Wiking again at Zhitomir shooting people's commissars,all of the town's officials civilian or military.
There's also plenty of references to Das Reich and other Waffen-SS divisions
Source Goldsworthy

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