Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

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krichter33
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#106

Post by krichter33 » 19 Aug 2014, 01:40

I guess most German divisions WSS or not conducted similar "reprisal" type atrocities in the East...

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#107

Post by GregSingh » 19 Aug 2014, 06:30

I spent some time searching Holocaust resources and couldn't find anything about Modlin 1939 incident. Only LSSAH Obermusikmeister's Müller-John order to shoot 50 Jews in Blonie on 18/19 September 1939 pops up. This one is well known and was already discussed on the Forum.


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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#108

Post by seaburn » 19 Aug 2014, 16:35

Delighted to find out that you had a look for the 'Modlin' incident 'GregSingh'. That was the specific accusation that got me interested in searching for evidence in the first place. I had thought that it would have been easier to find definitive evidence there rather than something that may have happened in the vastness of 'Russia'. As you no doubt read, the allegation had been made by a member of the LSAH who had served with KM in 1939 in Poland, called Alfred Legenfeld (Post 2). He was captured by the British in 1944 and his testimony was included in file WO208/4295. In it he claimed KM had asked him to shoot 50 Jews and on his refusal, he was sent to Buchenwald. I have no doubt that Legenfeld did serve with KM in Poland, he knew many personal details about him which he disclosed, but after searching for corroborating evidence and finding none, I had to conclude that Legenfeld was possibly trying to make himself look more valiant than he actually was.

I do believe he was sent to Buchenwald, but probably for a much less heroic reason. No other evidence has ever come up with the subsequent search into KM, no other allegation - and the 50 Jews shot by Muller-John also raised the possibility with me that it was that incident the Legenfeld was recounting. There was also reason to believe that the British were dubious about his claims as they never pursued a second interrogation and even this first one was not included in the main prosecution file TS26/856 that held Jakob Hanreich's testimony amongst others. Hanreich of course was interrogated a second time to validate his accusations in more detail. But there has always been a doubt in my mind that I might have missed something and its good to know that someone else has taken the time to back up my findings.

I would say to anyone interested in finding truth in rumours to search the published word and the archives, there is much out there that's still not fully uncovered and the work is very rewarding. There are more and more valuable resources made available every year and many files gathering dust in the archives that have never been fully catalogued. In relation to 'Wiking', I was just reading a document which alluded to their behaviour on the E.F., that doc is just one of 1000's that has never been published before. I do think the allegation against KM for 'Kherson' is also worth following up 'GregSingh' - I got side tracked on that search when I found more evidence instead for Jefremowka, so you may be interested in that one. KM's favourite dog Patras, the gift from Hitler was brought by him to the EF when he returned in early 1943. But he was pictured many times with German Shepard dogs both on the EF and in Normandy, he always had a great love for them from childhood as told in 'Meeting of Generals'. It is entirely possible that there was another dog that was killed and reprisals taken on the local population in 1941.

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Re: Peiper – War crimes on the Eastern Front – Cited Evidenc

#109

Post by eindhoven » 11 Sep 2014, 10:06

Seaburn, in February 1985 Der Freiwillige published this on the cover. Jefremovka

Der Freiwillige is very good about getting photographic details right. They would have listed this as the Aufklärungs had it been so.
Jefremovka copy.jpg

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#110

Post by seaburn » 12 Sep 2014, 07:58

Eindhoven, As the comments that followed your posting of this picture in error on the Peiper thread are not attached, I'll put them in here now. I appreciate your searching for more details on this event and am happy to accept information from any source that can add to a fuller understanding of what happened there that day. Much Obliged: CB


I replied to this photo yesterday as follows: ( I've edited out the Peiper comments)

" ...... As all the evidence points to Kurt Meyer (including 3 documents which personally name him) as the man who gave the order that day, it would seem that this picture somehow contradicts that evidence. As such, it deserves to be investigated. You appear happy to stand behind the publication as being trustworthy with regard to dates and locations it seems. I would ask that forum members who are more au fait with the break down of the LSAH's units and who may recognise clues as to who these men were would comment on your assertion.

In the meantime, it should be noted that there were many different units in and around Jefremowka that week, particularly elements of Max Wünsches 1./Panzerregiment who had arrived some days prior to the 16th. When Wünsche set out to rescue Meyer in Alexejewka, he departed from Jefremowka and both he and Meyer returned back there on the 16th of February.

Lehmann confirms their presence on the 15th of February as follows:

"The Bataillon maintained contact with the support point of the 1./Panzerregiment LAH in Jefremowka by means of shuttling reconnaissance forces"

Perhaps these men were part of the 1./Panzerregiment...."

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'Harro' replied to that Post as follows:

"Die gepanzerte Gruppe" refers to the Kampfgruppe led by Meyer, consisting of AA LAH (Meyer), 6./Pz.Rgt.LAH (Ostuf. Astheger), 3./AR.LAH (Ostuf. Haack), I./Pz.Rgt.LAH (Stubaf. Wünsche) and formed on February 10, together with KG Witt and Schwerpunktgruppe Führer (led by Kumm)."

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#111

Post by seaburn » 03 Dec 2014, 20:02

It is with enormous pleasure that I can announce that the true story of what happened in Jefremowka has finally made it into the published word! Danny Parker’s excellent new bio of Jochen Peiper - ‘Hitler’s Warrior’ - includes the testimony of Erich Rumpf, (9th Pionier-Kompanie, 1. SS-Panzer-Regiment LSAH) who was a witness and probable accomplice to the atrocity that day. I first learnt of the existence of this document in March of this year when DP sent me an unpublished chapter he had written on Peiper’s time on the Eastern Front to aid my own research. I recognised immediately that this was the definitive evidence that I had been looking for. It was an admission by someone who had been there that day and had also named Kurt Meyer as the man who issued the order. This verified all the evidence that had been gathered here. I therefore tried to find it at NARA myself and failed – But I was hopeful that someday it would reach the public domain, I just didn't think that it would feature in ‘Hitler’s Warrior’ as I knew that this book would be more about Peiper the ‘man’ and less about the events on the Eastern Front. I did post a small segment of the testimony above but now I am delighted to be able to post it here in full:

‘Billeted in a snow-covered village, Rumpf heard a pistol shot at 10.30am in front of the house where he was staying. He ran to the door and saw a scar faced Hauptsturmführer, approximately thirty years old, standing there in a snow camouflaged outfit and a fur cap. The man angrily demanded that the company commander should be called there right away. Shortly Hauptsturmführer Nueske arrived on the scene to have the SS captain shout once more ‘on the orders of (Kurt) Meyer, this town is to be levelled to the ground, because this morning armed civilians attacked this locality’. At this he shot a ‘twenty five year old woman who was busy cooking our lunch’. Later Rumpf heard other shots and learned that the same man shot two more other girls in a house nearby. Nueske stormed off, only to return thirty minutes later and confirm Meyer’s orders. His soldiers he railed ‘had to act like wild men’ . According to Rumpf, the SS men killed all the village inhabitants, slaughtered all their cattle and burned their homes to the ground’
(‘Hitler’s Warrior’- Danny Parker – pp 95/96)

Parker also publishes Jakob Hanreich’s testimony that was posted on this thread at the start of my investigation. Hanreich’s testimony also named Meyer as the man in command that day, but his evidence although crucial, was only hearsay. But Rumpf was there and now his testimony becomes the most central document to this case. This account was entitled 'Jefremowka' and was given by Rumpf during his time in custody for the ‘Malmedy’ atrocity, by that time Kurt Meyer was already in prison in Canada, therefore his allegation was not elicited to be used against Meyer at his trial. However somewhere all the line, Peiper became implicated as the commander in the Jefremowka that day,this is a belief still held in Ukraine. I am hopeful now that DP has published these testimonies that this will be the start of putting the record straight. I do feel that this is the irrefutable evidence that Kurt Meyer was the man who issued the order that day and those that have followed this trail from the start will know how much this means to me to see it in now in the published word.
Last edited by seaburn on 03 Dec 2014, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Harro
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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#112

Post by Harro » 03 Dec 2014, 20:18

Well, that's settled then. The only scarfaced SS-Hauptsturmführer in the Aufkl.Abt. LAH at that time was Erich Gatternig, member of Meyer's staff as the Abteilungsarzt (battalion doctor).

Image

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#113

Post by seaburn » 03 Dec 2014, 20:59

Harro - your id of Gatternig was also my guess - but I would have thought that Rumpf would have named him as he was not one you'd forget. That said, there were a lot of strays and stragglers attached to this 'reinforced recon btln' at that time and these guys might not have been familiar with everyone else.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#114

Post by Harro » 03 Dec 2014, 21:18

You'll be amazed how little soldiers new about men who were not in their company, even if these men were higher ranking officers. Most veterans from the LAH I've met had no idea who served in other elements of the battalion. And Rumpf wasn't even with the battalion.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#115

Post by seaburn » 03 Dec 2014, 21:46

Yes of course, elements of Rumpf's 9. Panzer Pi. including his commander Nüske were obviously subordinated at that time to the 1./Pz. Rgt 1 under Wünsche, who in turn was subordinated to Meyer. Peiper himself had mentioned that Rumpf was with the 'Panzer Regiment' element at Jefremowka when he spoke about it to James Weingartner, further explaining why he would not be familiar with Dr G.

As I mentioned, in my limited knowledge of the AA-LSSAH, I thought of Gatternig, as the description of 'scarfaced' is quite apparent in his case, but as these other units were under Meyers command in Feb 43 {- 6./Panzerregiment LAH (under Obersturmführer Astherger), 3./Artillerie-Regiment LAH (under Obersturmführer Haack) and 1./Panzerregiment LAH (under Stürmbannfuhrer Wünsche)} - I don't have knowledge of all the Officers in these units to make a decisive identification.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#116

Post by seaburn » 03 Dec 2014, 23:56

Here's Meyer and Gatternig together as already posted on the forum

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... g#p1866698
gatter k.jpg
gatter k.jpg (96.09 KiB) Viewed 1953 times

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#117

Post by Harro » 04 Dec 2014, 00:11

Keep in mind that Meyer and Gatternig were close "personal friends" (as stated in G's obituary, "Der Freiwillige" 1996), the doctor joined Meyer's staff when the Aufkl.Abt. LAH was formed in Metz in autumn of 1940 and as such had been with him for 2.5 years when they were shipped to the Charkow front. For "scarface" we can definitely rule out the other SS-Hauptsturmführer in the battalion at that time: Knittel (hospitalized), Bremer, Weiser and Kukatsch (as far as I know the original statement by Rumpf mentioned that the Hstuf was from the AA LAH, not an attached unit).

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#118

Post by seaburn » 04 Dec 2014, 00:19

It also seems that this 'scarfaced' Officer was one of the first to act on this order, so much so that Nüske seemed to be bewildered as to the turn of events. It would follow that this Officer was possibly close to Meyer when this decision was made and was fully behind this brutal revenge. It's also only circumstantial, but I have always believed that the fatal injury of Fritz Montag that day was the catalyst for this atrocity. Again, only a presumption, but when Montag was brought in the side car to Meyer with his legs blown off, Meyer in a fit of rage immediately ordered the levelling of the village, in this scenario the presence of Gatternig as the units Doctor is very possible.

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#119

Post by krichter33 » 04 Dec 2014, 04:19

Excellent research. I'm so glad that this will be in the printed record now!!!

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Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

#120

Post by Harro » 04 Dec 2014, 08:56

I knew I had more on the relation between Meyer and Gatternigg and I just found it. From the memories of SS-Oberscharführer Kurt Landrichter:
„Dr. Erich Gatternig – Hauptsturmführer und Arzt, unser Abteilungsarzt, was hat er eigentlich vorne, bei der kämpfende Truppe, verloren? Eigentlich nichts – aber er ist immer bei uns, unmittelbar um den Kommandeur herum, immer einen Karabiner in der Hand. Das ärztliche Werkzeug im Tornister. Für die Kompanien hat er zwei Jungärzte. Sein Platz ist hier, bei Panzermeyer, mit dem ihn auch eine gute Freundschaft verbindet und von dem er weiß, daß dieser Panzermeyer wichtig ist – wichtiger als er – wie er zu sagen pflegt. Einen Kommandeur wie Panzermeyer wird es nicht so bald wieder geben und so hat er es sich zur Aufgabe gemacht, Schutzengel z.b.V für Panzermeyer zu sein.“
My translation:
"Dr. Erich Gatternig - Hauptsturmführer and doctor, our battalion doctor, For what reason was he always in the frontline? Basically none, but he was always with us, close to the commander, always with a carbine in his hand. The medical tools in his knapsack. For the companies he had two young doctors. His place is here, with Panzermeyer, with whom he established a good friendship and he knows that this is important for Panzermeyer - more important than he himself - as he likes to say. There will not be another commander like Panzermeyer soon,so he has made it his task to be guardian angel and zbV for Panzermeyer."

That's our man, no doubt. Regardless of the admiration Landrichter displayed for Gatternigg, Nüske revealed the dark side of being both a doctor and an SS-officer. A complete disregard for "subhuman" life, in many ways similar to the mentality of the doctors in the camps.

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