Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

[DargesFlyKiller]

Due to being away from the forum for quite sometime, I've enjoyed reading everything i've missed on this topic, Great research Seaburn you are a real asset to this forum, Your threads are always worth looking forward too. With Rumpf's testimony and Harro's post's confirming Gatternig was the man in question there can be no doubt it was Meyer. Great post's Harro. :

[Harro]

As for Fritz Montag, keep in mind that he wasn't just a Waffen-SS Untersturmführer: as SS-Oberführer, Gauobmann of the German Labour Front and commander of the Ordensburg Vogelensang (since April 1942) and Reichtag member for the Mecklenburg constituency (since February 9, 1943) he was a high ranking member of the Allgemeine SS and senior member of the NSDAP. I would not be surprised if especially his severe wounds, by actual of suspected partisan activities, would have triggered reprisals. All accounts claim that he died when he drove into a minefield. An unlikely weapon of choice for partisans (a mine, okay, but not a complete minefield), but I don't think Meyer and friends needed a factual reason to order such an act of outrage.

In the Waffen-SS he had been a reserve officer (SS-Ustuf. der Res. from December 3, 1941, backdated to November 9, 1941) and he first appeared in the lists of the Aufkl. Abt. LAH in October 1942. At 46 het was very old compared to the other company commanders and his commanding officer. He died of his wounds on February 20, 1943, in the field hospital in Poltawa. Promotion to SS-Oberstumführer der Reserve in the Waffen-SS followed posthumously and was backdated to January 1, 1943.

[krichter33]

Gatternig is scary looking....right out of a movie!

[seaburn]

Harro: Thank you for posting all the info on Montag - much appreciated. I know I've posted this before, but even before I had an inkling of the what had happened in Jefremowka , the paragraph that KM wrote in his autobiography made me pause for thought when I first read it - Civilians V the German forces - there was only going to be one outcome, I felt and still do that he was heavily hinting at something sinister when he wrote:

”During the fighting back to the west we got to know a new phase of this inhuman war. It was impossible to distinguish Soviet soldiers from harmless civilians. For the first time soldiers were ambushed in towns and in the countryside without being able to identify enemy units. We became nervous. The locals did not dare to betray the concealed Red Army solders. The Soviet’s enthusiasm and the attitude of the population demanded special watchfulness on our part. My old comrade, Fritz Montag, who has been given command of the acting headquarters company, drove into a minefield and lost both legs above the knee. He was brought to me fully conscious in a motorcycle sidecar……The fighting had taken on a treacherous character.”

When I learnt about Jefremowka, I felt certain that this had been the incident that KM was hinting at, then of course the date of the atrocity was found and it matched Montag's date of Injury - circumstantial yes but probably too coincidental. Keep in mind the known time line. We now know through Rumpfs testimony that this shooting started at approx 10.30 am 'Gatternig' had indicated that 'this morning armed civilians attacked this locality’ which matches with KM said above that 'soldiers were ambushed in towns and in the countryside' - The massacre is ordered and carried out, then they mount up and leave - later that day the unit successfully engages with Soviet forces near the village. Would Montag's injuries have happened after the massacre and before this encounter ? My feeling is that it happened before it, but I can't prove it of course and therefore I can't stand over it.

[seaburn]

I just re-read this claim made by KM at a post-war HIAG meeting that I thought work sharing due to the Irony of the statement.


He Stated:

"SS troops committed no crimes except the massacre at Oradour and that was the action of a single man"
(Hitler's Warrior-D Parker p203)

It would have been interesting to see Meyer's defence case if he had been brought to trial by the Russians post war for Jefremowka. He obviously believed that the full culpability rested with the man who gave the order and not the troops who carried it out. Using his own logic, it would infer that he believed that he alone was the sole culprit for Jefremowka.



(Why he stated that is worth analysing but it is more relevant to the Oradour threads)

[rossmcpharter]

Rampant speculation here by me from the kriegsberichter website. From the Leibstandarte on the Ostfront section, a vehicle with mine damage to the drivers side, from the time period. Is it possible to ID any of the individuals here?

[seaburn]

Thanks for posting 'RMP' - If only a date was attached ! Hopefully some eagle eyed members might spot a familiar face to pin this unit down.. It would be amazing if this tied in with the story of Montag's death.

[Harro]

Hard to tell, I don't recognize any of them but the Aufkl.Abt. LAH lost a lot of vehicles and men to mines in those days. Minefields and losses due to mines are reported almost daily during February 1943.

[seaburn]

Harro - Do you know how many of these type of attacks the Aufkl.Abt suffered in that time period - Why do you you think that KM made specific mention of the one about Montag ? If my theory is correct it would have been that he suspected that those mines were put there by civilians rather than the Soviet forces - which sounds illogical as mine laying is usually anonymous . If my theory is not correct, it was possibly just that he was recording this death for posterity which he did with other people in his book.

Hopefully others may recognise someone in these photos and we could get some clue as to rule them in or out.

[Harro]

I'd say he made specific mention because Montag was a company commander and not just one of the lower ranks. Note that Meyer mentions most if not all officers who were KIA during the Charkow battles. The victims of mines are usually recognized by the type of wounds they suffered. For example, SS-Untersturmführer Bernd Schütte (platoonleader in 1./AA LAH) is listed in the Verlustliste as wounded with "Prellungen d. Knie" and when I asked one of his men about this, Karl replied:

„Dann sind wir an zwei Schwimmwagen vorbei gefahren. Das eine war Bernd Schütte, der war bei uns im Halbzug und führte jetzt ein Zug im 1. Kompanie. Als wir da vorbei gefahren sind, sagte der Schütte: Ich hab Glück gehabt. Die sind ja auf Minen gefahren.“

"Then we drove past two Schwimmwagen. One was Bernd Schütte, who was with us in the half-platoon and now led a platoon in the 1st Company. When we drove past there, Schütte said: "I've been lucky". They had driven on mines."
The vehicles in this case were two Schwimmwagen but it shows how normal such incidents were.

I doubt Meyer needed actual involvement of partisans/civilians. In my opinion the simple fact that a senior nazi who was a close friend was killed be mines would have been sufficient to order a rampage. Face it, they often needed a lesser reason for such behaviour (see the murders and massacres in Trois-Ponts, Ster, Renardmont, Stavelot, Parfondruy, etc. for examples of the Aufkl.Abt. LAH killing randomly in the Ardennes later blaming it on "partisan" activity. The Eastern Front was far worse).

[seaburn]

Yes I hear you and of course there was multiple or no reasons I'm sure for doing this but remember 'Gatternig' also confirmed the reason was for 'Partisan activity' which matches KMs account of that day in his book.

[Harro]

Indeed, yet suspected partisan activity also triggered the massacre of women, children and old men in and around Stavelot. For all I know Montag - if his death was indeed the trigger - simply hit one of many Soviet army minefields. They might actually have believed that partisans were to blame, they might have known better but Meyer and his buddies took their frustration and/or grief out on the civilian population of Jefremowka.

[seaburn]

Therein lies the truth I think - why would a landmine field spell partisans instead of Soviet forces, it doesn't add up ? KM stating this in his book could have been a smoke screen/excuse postwar to send a message to all his readers to say ...'we did this because of Partisan attack'... that would tie in with him writing this paragraph because this atrocity was an open secret in the ranks of the LSSAH and elsewhere- Hanreich having stated that he had heard the story a few days later from 'numerous sources', Luftwaffe POWs talking about in London etc - the dogs were barking it in the street, he knew this accusation could have raised its head at any time...

So it was a message to those people, it was not Meyer cleansing his soul of regret.. It reminds me of a youtube clip I saw of old vets discussing war crimes with a reporter and coming to the conclusion that the retribution given was justified because of 'partisan attack'. I've said it before. KM was very savy and always had his eye two steps ahead ... he was covering his ass, IMO.

Of course the motivation for this atrocity is just an interesting side show, it doesn't take from the fact that this happened as per the evidence posted. But although at the moment we have no definitive evidence to pin a motivation down, if we could find other pieces of the puzzle it would be great.

[seaburn]

I've been sent a copy of a Russian documentary series which contains interviews with people who were connected/related to 'movers and shakers' in the third Reich. One of them contains an interview with Kurt Meyer Jr and I've been told he talks about the accusation that his father shot villagers in Russia because his dog was killed. While this was a theory of one German POW about the motivation for Jefremowka, It also came up on the thread in relation to Cherson in 1941 from an excerpt in 'The Hitler Book'. I would of course be very interested in what was said and would be obliged if someone who has an interest in this subject and speaks Russian would contact me by PM.

[seaburn]

The following is the full testimony of Erich Rumpf as given to the 'Malmedy' Investigation team - An excerpt from this document was published in Danny Parker's book 'Hitler's Warrior'. I asked Mr Parker to furnish me with the full document as it was the only one listed on this thread that I could not find. He very kindly agreed and also gave his permission for me to post it here.

On translating it, I discovered that we have a new name in the mix, as you will see, Rumpf alleged that Sepp Dietrich himself may have been in the village that day and that he may have given the order to Meyer. This is the first time that I have seen Dietrich's name linked to this atrocity, but then again Rumpf was the only witness we have who was actually in the village that day. However, he does state that he did not personally see Dietrich, but was told on 'Various occasions' that he was there.

It should be borne in mind that Dietrich was a co-defendant at the 'Malmedy' trial, would Rumpf have had other motivations to name his old boss? It should also be noted that there are other allegations in this testimony that we have previously verified. The presence of Wünsche and Nüske were both corroborated by divisional records and Walter Fransee's testimony respectively.

What needs to be found in order to corroborate Rumpf's allegation is the location of Dietrich on the 17th of February 1943. On that date Hitler flew to Zaporozje south of Jefremowka to meet von Manstein, I have posted a query on the forum to see if Dietrich may have gone there to see his old friend, so far I have had no reply. There are numerous pictures of Meyer and Dietrich together in this general area at that general time, does anyone have a specific date for these? - we do not need them posted unless they can verify a date.

There is also an intriguing allegation made by a Ukrainian source that a 'High ranking Officer' was in Jefremowka that day and that he was shot at and wounded. Upon evacuation he was supposed to have issued the order for the destruction of the village. With the help of other forum members I have looked into this allegation and have come to the conclusion that another incident which happened in the days preceding the atrocity may have been responsible for that allegation. However, that can only be speculation on my part, we can only accept credible 'hard' evidence of Dietrich's location that day or another allegation against him personally in order to verify or rebutt Rumpf's testimony.

Jefremowka (Russland)

"In Jefremowka I lived with Hauptsturmführer Nüske at the company command post as there were not enough houses for that section of the platoon, 5 or 6 as far as I remember.

At about half past ten a.m., I heard a pistol shot immediately in front of the entrance. I ran to the door at once and saw a Hauptsturmführer, about 30 years old, with a scar on his cheek. He was wearing a white camouflage outfit and a fur cap. He shouted at me wanting to know what I was doing there. I told him that this was the company command post. His next question was "who was chief" and that he should come to him, this was all he said as he shouted loudly. I expected an argument between Nüske and this Hauptsturmführer because of his tone. Nüske, however, restrained himself and came forward.

“By order of Meyer this place has to be razed because this morning armed civilians tried to attack this place. Look at this one here so that you know how to do it!” This was more or less how he gave the order. He then shot the woman who was busy cooking our lunch with his pistol. For emphasis he added that the temporary company commanders were personally answerable to the commander (Meier) for the execution of this order. (And he added) that the Obergruppenführer (this meant Sepp Dietrich) was there himself and was furious with the Russians because of this attack.

As I heard later, from the men of my platoon, in the house next door this Hauptsturmführer shot two young girls, about 18 – 19 years old, in the same way and shouted at the men from the company who were there with about the same words.

Hereupon Hauptsturmführer Nüske went away, I suppose that he went to the command post of the commander, came back after about 30 minutes and confirmed that the order had been given by Meier. Outraged at the behaviour of the Hauptsturmführer, he said that “he of all people had to behave like a madman” (this referred to the Hauptsturmführer) as he had no official position (or rank) and had no say within the Recon detachment (Meier’s detachment).

At the time Nüske was Obersturmführer. The expression “like mad” correctly describes the way this officer behaved and shot the woman. On the basis of this order, all the inhabitants were shot, all the cattle killed and the houses set on fire. – I do not know if Sepp Dietrich was actually there at the time, because I did not see him in person, but I was told so on various occasions. There was a rumour that Sepp Dietrich had prompted the order, which seems possible to me. It can also be assumed with certainty that when this order was given, Sturmbannführer and commander of the Panzer detachment, Wünsche was present".

Source: Danny Parker/RG-549, Box 32. Handwritten accounts written by Erich Rumpf of actions in Russia.
With thanks also to those who translated