Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

[seaburn]

Thanks ‘Eindhoven’ for all your information. I had seen the Canadian interrogation of Kurt Meyer that included Wunsche before as it’s online but as it only stated that ‘his ideas and general philosophy of life were stated in exactly the same terms as those of Meyer’ I didn’t think there was more to that interview. But your point is correct that there may be some information in the individual interrogation of Wunsche that may be pertinent. Your point on the psychological aspect of bringing them in together and separately is interesting. I had noticed that the British interrogators switched their questions very deftly from Normandy to the Eastern front and back again possibly hoping to get Meyer to say something out of turn, and dropping the questions on the dog seems to have startled him. I’m not sure however, how interested the Canadians and British were in looking at details of atrocity’s that happened outside Normandy in this document or in general, other than that it would show ‘form’ when it came to war crimes.

In their summary report the British said that the crimes outside Normandy do warrant the re-interrogation of witnesses who already reported allegations of war crimes, (Although, I was shocked to find that they had not included Lengenfeld’s initial interrogation in file TS26/856 let alone a re-interrogation report) but they also say that these crimes should be investigated by the courts of the country were the alleged atrocity took place (TS26/856 pages 17 and 21).

But even with them apparently washing their hands of the matter they did ask some POW’s questions about crimes in the East as we have seen with Hanreich’s interrogation. But not three of the people you have listed (Matthei, Schmidt and Becker's whose interrogations are included in TS26/856) But I will be keeping a keen eye out for the others on your list to see what they were asked when I can locate another batch of relevant documents.

As regards Max Wunsche, I would be surprised if he implicated Meyer, but this story has already thrown up unexpected twists and turns, so I’m not betting on anything anymore. I'm reluctant to tie him to this yet without any real evidence but he may give some new info that will be definitely worth checking out . Obviously the next step is to try and locate his British and Canadian interrogation files. I haven’t looked at the Canadian archives yet, I presume the refs you have given should contain his interrogation report? (I can’t help feeling that you have some info that you know and want me to find myself. I’m intrigued). As I said previously, I have stumbled across British file refs that may include his files i.e. Col Scotland’s files from the ‘cage’ and Files on prisoners in Camp 165. But please keep in mind that I’m a rank amateur at this game so any help is gratefully received here on the thread or by PM. If any other member has file refs that they feel I should look at or they may have in their possession, please let me know. Tks again to all who are helping.

[seaburn]

Following on to my previous post, I am at the moment trying to track down Max Wünsche's interrogation file in the British archives. I have narrowed down the files I'm looking for and I hope to order them in the next few days. Although I stress again that I am not linking him yet to this alleged atrocity in the Ukraine, but it does appear he may have knowledge of it. I'm sure all of you are aware of the 'Bromance' between Wünsche and Meyer, they are pictured many times together and they appear to have had a very harmonious relationship. My contact in London has just sent me a sheet, he stumbled on it while looking for something else on behalf on another customer and he knew I was looking for info on Max Wünsche and he correctly surmised that I'd be interested in it. Although it does not contain any evidence, I think its most interesting as it shows that Wünsche was alarmed at the thought that his name was on a Russian wanted sheet. It remains to be seen how talkative he became while he was digesting this news !

No 3. Obersturmbannführer Wünsche

....'Now that he is a PW and has has lost his freedom, he believes that 'he has nothing to lose'. The attitude suffered a slight revision when he was informed of the black list of German Offrs. Being shot as a hero appealed to the hari-kari instinct of this Nazi. But being handed over to the Russians as a war criminal was NOT his idea of a fitting end to a Ritterkreuzträger. The possibility that his name was on the list so worried the Obersturmführer that he earnestly bid his interrogator go and see if the name 'Wünsche' appeared upon it. To this extent he was told that the list was 'Top Secret' and consulting it was a lengthy and serious business. He would soon know in any case. A period of apprehensive waiting should, if nothing else has, make him think' (Source: first Cdn Army Int summary)

Admittedly, Wünsche's interrogation report may prove to be a dead end as he may have given up nothing, they do describe him on this sheet as ...' one of the worst type of SS offr, arrogant, fanatical, Nazi.....Wünsche was never the less a brilliant tank comd. and was willing to fight to the death for his own 'honour' and that of the SS'....

The other lead I'm following is to find the person who gave the British the story of Meyers dog as discussed on previous posts, this interrogation hasn't come to light yet so I am very interested to find that file for this mystery man as he should add some more information hopefully.

[krichter33]

Would love to hear more! Very interesting!

[seaburn]

I have been reviewing my posts and I want to make a clarification as it may be pertinent. Hanreich actually said that the incident took place 'before' the break out west, and he only specifically mentions Meyers Recce group as being responsible. This would seem to indicate that it was before the relief by Wunsche

Meyer himself spoke about civilians/partisans attacking them 'after' the break out on the way back west. So its still unclear when this actually happened as Hanreich wasn't there himself although he was listed in his interrogation as being returned to 'Russia' near Kharkov in February 43.

Obviously, I am still pursuing Max Wunsche's interrogations as he is 'a person of interest' , it would stretch my incredulity to believe that Wunsche would not have been told about it when he arrived, but it remains to be seen if he gave his captures any information about it.

I have ordered some files today and will post if anything turns up. In the meantime I still appeal to anyone else who has any further information of Modlin or Kharkov.

[seaburn]

Just a quick update for anyone who is interested in following this story. I have been given a document by another member which I have posted on the 'breaking the sound barrier' forum as it is in Russian, It's supposed to relate to the killing of 240 people and the burning of a village near Jefremowka in February 43 after the killing of a German soldier. But the small amount of English text on the page seems to indicate that this involved the regiment 'Der Führer'. I was going to leave it at that but then thought I'd better double check that there was no other clue in the text as the location, date, and story fit this investigation.

I put it up today and it was only after I posted it that I looked more closely at the Russian writing contained in the map and I'm nearly sure that the text actually refers to the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler with the date of 11.2.43 and something about Merefa. This would definitely tie in with this story. I'm hoping to attract the attention of members to translate this now, if I don't get anything back, I will PM those that have translated Russian text before. If anyone of this thread can help with this or knows someone who can, please let me know.

[seaburn]

Just another update with no real move forward I’m afraid. I am still awaiting the translation on the Document I received, I have PM’d a native Russian speaker and he has agreed to look at it for me. I have now received Max Wünsche’s UK interrogations and other files that I hoped might throw up some clues. I have looked at (WO208/3647) which is a London ‘cage’ file from August 44, there was nothing of significance to this case in this file. I was hoping that the 'cage' file for September '44 (WO208/3648) would throw up Max Wünsche’s first interrogation but this file is ‘MIA’ at the archives. But from trawling through previous posts on the forum, it was doubtful that his initial interrogation was at the ‘cage’, the previous threads gave an indication that the March and Nov 45 ‘cage’ files would have some info. So I ordered them.

(WO208/3654) from March did hold an ‘interview’ with Wünsche. But it mainly focused on how he felt his treatment had been since he was captured and how he had spent his time since then. There was however, one answer that shed light on his mind-set at the time. It went as follows:

Q: What do you expect the Wehrmacht to do on cessation of hostilities?
A: “For myself I should return to my farm in Oberlausitz. I expect most of the SS and the Wehrmacht would similarly resume their civilian occupations. However, the question is quite illusionary. I live in an area where, judging by your newspapers, the Bolsheviks have certainly murdered my relatives and friends. I should therefor never return there. If I did I should continue to fight against the Bolsheviks to the very last. Even though formal armistice commissions were prevailing, I should band myself together with other uniformed men and fight them. I should not attempt to go ‘underground’ and disguise myself in civilian clothes. Both members of the WM and of the SS would do the same, as I do not admit a split between the two bodies”.

I interpret this passage as showing his disdain for ‘Partisan’ activity which mirrors Meyer’s opinion on the same matter. In Grenadiers (page 303) Meyer talks of the populations that were not involved ,suffering the most harm from German retaliation due to the criminal activities of the Partisans. There are sadly many documented cases of massive disproportionate retaliation against civilian populations when an attack on German troops was made. Wünsche finishes by saying that he would ‘seek to join some organisation that would continue to represent the ideals of Adolf Hitler’. I think this shed’s light on the reason he was held for 4 years as a POW in the UK.

The next file from September 45 (WO208/3662) included a four page document which dealt solely with the 1940 murder of British POWs at Wormhoudt . Wünsche related the story of how he was pinned down in a drainage pipe for most of the day with Sepp Dietrich. There were no questions asked or answered about anything else. In relation to this investigation, the only interesting aspect was that the British acknowledged that Wunsche was more helpful with their inquiries. They summed it up as follows:

“Wünsche’s extensive career in the ‘SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler’ from 1934 until the end of 1943, when he was transferred to the 12th SS Panzer division, where he remained until capture, puts him of course, under the immediate suspicion of being a war criminal and consequently tends to throw doubt on the reliability of his statement. PW maintains that he himself never committed any act which could be construed to contravene the recognised articles of war, and it is noteworthy, that in the extensive files, kept in this office on the infamous deeds of the 1 and 12 SS Panzer divisions, his name does not occur once in connection with any atrocity. On the other hand, a company commanded by the notorious Kurt Meyer, who later commanded the 12th SS Panzer division, comes under suspicion by this very reason alone. These facts must be borne in mind when assessing the reliability of the statement but, taken by itself Wünsche’s story sounds feasible . It should also be noted that PW gave the names of all personnel that may have been implicated quite freely as he tries to disassociate himself strongly from the atrocity committed”

It’s interesting that he gave the British the impression that he was willing to help them. He also strove to give Meyer an alibi by telling them that Meyer had been in hospital that day and that he saw him on his return from his ‘adventure’. Tellingly, he named the person who many have come to pin the blame on for this atrocity. This person was named albeit in a listing of the commanders of the day but he was also mentioned as taking over from command of II btln when a colleague had been injured. But he does not point a specific finger at anyone individually.

That concludes the reports that I have found on Wunsche in the British Archives. There are others in the Canadian archives as mentioned earlier on the thread, but I think if he had given anything up to the Canadians or in his first interrogation, it would have been included in TS26/856, although I would be still interested to read these and rule them out. But thinking on it more in the past week, I personally do not feel that Wünsche would have given Meyer up. When he was called to give evidence at Meyers trial in December 45, his actions and manner were described by Col Foster as ..’condescending and insolent….(page 477, meeting of Generals).

Sadly, I saw no report from any POW about Meyer’s dog either, this information may not have come directly from a POW but it may have been overheard by the listening devices and then thrown into Meyer’s interrogation to shake him up. I suspect that finding this report will be like finding a needle in a haystack. So onwards and upwards...hopefully !

CB

[krichter33]

Absolutely brilliant! This is primary research of the first order. You should write a book on Wünsche....

[seaburn]

Final evidence and summing up:

The document I received from a source in the Ukraine via another member of this forum has proved to be something of an ‘enigma’. As it was in Russian, I had to put it on the ‘breaking the sound barrier’ thread in the hope that someone could make sense of it, I also PM’d two Russian speaking members to translate it. They both came back with the same basic information, while my suspicions proved to be correct and the document did indeed mainly refer to the Leibstandarte; there was just too much confusion and contradiction in the text to render it believable as a source of historical accuracy. Neither of the translators could confirm whether it was the author or the witnesses who were confused. There were stories of a ‘red headed officer’ an officer in ‘a long leather coat’ and more disturbingly a named WSS ‘personality’ who personally shot three children. There was talk that it was the work of the WSS OR police OR Soviet Collaborators. One of the translators wrote “this document (as well, as couple similar Russian-language publications on this topic) also contains suspicious statements and outright distortions that put credibility of these sources into question.”

As I’d been investing so much hope in finding eyewitness statements, their finding were more than disappointing and initially I chose to totally disregard it and move on. However, it was the last words of one of the translators that caught my attention eventually. He had written “IMO the reliable conclusions that could be made from the article is that the massacre in Yefremovka previously occupied by SS units took place on 17.02.43, the question who was actually in charge and who were perpetrators needs a further study”.

Coincidentally the other translator put up a link to a memorial in Jefremovka :http://tourist.kharkov.ua/phpbb/viewtop ... 10&t=18152
And wrote “Also note that according to the inscription on memorial near Yefremovka, massacre had happened on the 17th February 1943. Total loss of life was 453 in Yefremovka.

So, we can take it that this memorial is the only reliable evidence in this document, and the date stated is February 17th. Now, to answer the question, who was in charge in Jefremovka on 17th February 1943?

Firstly I had to rule out the named ‘Personality’ as more than once he and his Btln were accused in this document. On investigation, I was reliably informed that he was not in this area on the day in question. Interestingly, the answer to who WAS there had already been confirmed on this thread previously; on February 17th Kurt Meyer’s recon Btln was indeed in Jefremovka.

“Meyer and his verstärkte AA LAH were in Jefremowka on two occasions in February 1943. First they reached Jefremowka on February 11 in the midst of a blizzard, keeping hold of the northern and eastern parts of the town and leaving for Alexejewka the next day. They returned to Jefremowka on February 16 and left again the next day”(see previous post)


So now we have confirmation that Meyer was in Jefremowka on the day the massacre took place. Would it be possible to tell what could have motivated this atrocity? I acknowledge that without on eyewitness account from the perpetrators side, it will be only speculation on my part, but I have stated earlier on this thread that I believe it was ‘partisan’ activity against German troops that was the catalyst for this and I quoted from Meyer’s own account in Grenadiers to back up my theory. I think it’s worth quoting from it again:

”During the fighting back to the west we got to know a new phase of this inhuman war. It was impossible to distinguish Soviet soldiers from harmless civilians. For the first time soldiers were ambushed in towns and in the countryside without being able to identify enemy units. We became nervous. The locals did not dare to betray the concealed Red Army solders. The Soviet’s enthusiasm and the attitude of the population demanded special watchfulness on our part. My old comrade, Fritz Montag, who has been given command of the acting headquarters company, drove into a minefield and lost both legs above the knee. He was brought to me fully conscious in a motorcycle sidecar. A few days later he was buried in Poltawa at the side of General von Briesen. The fighting had taken on a treacherous character.” (Grenadiers: pages 172, 173).

I then checked the date of Fritz Montag’s death. He died on February 20th, having sustained his injuries on February 17th. Coincidence or motive ? I leave it up to each of you to decide.

Now, couple this new information together with the other evidence, namely the two POW testimonies on earlier posts “they set off………the two drivers were killed – otherwise there was no causalities at all…they captured the village, killed everyone, children, women, old men, everyone.” Obstlt Muller Rienzburg (TS26/856 page 45)

“The Recce Btln of the LSAH made an advance at the end of Feb, towards the east and reached the village of Jefremovka (?). There they were surrounded by Russian forces, POL and ammo run out (sic) and they were supplied by air until they were ordered to try and break through to the west. Before trying to do so, the entire civil population was shot and the village burnt to the ground. The Recce Btln at that time was lead by Obstr Kurt Meyer…..” Jacob Hanreich (TS26/856 page 232)

Jacob Hanreich is the star ‘witness’ in this case and he makes his accusation specifically against Meyer’s Recce Btln. Admittedly, he does not appear to have been there himself when this happened but he was in the general area in February 1943. George M Niep records: “The division's Panzerjager Company was stationed east of Nikolskoje at that time and battalion commander, SS-Sturmbannftihrer Jakob Hanreich was ordered to detail a battery of self-propelled anti-tank guns to attack the Soviet Armour, which had been spotted at another location, some distance to the east of Minkovka.” (‘Last Victory in Russia’ page 200).

As you can see below, he was a very early recruit to the Nazi cause and served with the LSSAH and the 12th WSS HJ, he would have known Meyer well and there is a group picture with the two of them together at Fritz Witt’s birthday celebration in Normandy in May 1944. Here is the listing of his career up to his interrogation as posted in the ‘Phil Nix’ thread some years ago. I believe him to be a very credible witness.

1911, born Austria
1929, SA "rising to the rank of Scharfuehrer, and has been in the Allgemeine SS and Bayrische Hilfspolizei. A tough type."
10 May 1933, posted to Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler, Berlin
1935, Platoon leader in 6 Company as SS-Ustuf
1937, transferred to 14 Coy (A/Tk Coy)
1938, A/Tk Lehrgang at Doeberitz
from Sept 1939, LAH Regiment went through Polish, French and Greek campaigns
mid March 1941, unit to Bruenn then into Russia
March 1942, Hanreich sent to Sennelager, forming the A/Tk Battalion
end June 1942, A/Tk Bat to Russia; later unit ordered to France, west of Paris
Feb 1943, unit returned to Russia west of Kharkov
25 June 1943, unit to Po Valley, Italy
23 Aug 1943, Hanreich on leave; LAH in the meantime became a Div.
19 Sept 1943, Regimental Staff and A/Tk Bat in Milan
Oct 1943, moved to area north of Genoa
end Oct 1943, Div. to Russia in southern sector; Hanreich sent on assault gun Lehrgang at Magdeburg
Dec 1943, Hanreich returned to Russia, now O.C. "B" Echelon
end March 1944, Div. returned to France; Hanreich posted to SS-HJ Div. as O.C. 12.SS A/Tk Bat
Aug 1944, Div. to front lines
19 Aug 1944, captured by British forces south of Falaise
29 Aug 1944, interrogated at the London District Cage

The Case for the Defence:

As was posted earlier, Meyer completely denied that he was ever in Jefremovka or that he even knew where it was to his interrogators. But George M Niep places him firmly there in Feb 43, although this piece is probably from the earlier visit that month. “From there, the battalion motored eastwards along the Paraskoveja-Alexejevka road and linked up with elements of Kurt Meyers AufkHirungsabteilung "LAH" at Jefremovka. Meanwhile, Meyer's main detachment, having left troops in Jefremovka, advanced to the east of Ochotschaje”( Last Victory in Russia: page 125)

And indeed in Grenadiers Meyer also spoke of revisiting Jefremovka in March 43 as was posted earlier. So why did he lie? His defence for lying about events in Normandy was that he didn't want to implicate his troops, but in this instance, he is only covering up for himself as he was in command that day and would have been the person who gave the order.

Whether Max Wunsche was there or not is a matter of speculation only, I have found no evidence to support or deny this. I do believe at the very least that Wunsche would have been aware of it after the fact, as were probably most of the Leibstandarte in that area. Having read his British interrogation documents, I personally believe that Wunsche would never have told this story to anyone who could have used it against Meyer.


So that’s where I think my personal search ends. I hope that Marcus’s question from 2008 has been answered to some extent. I got into this because I wanted to bring these allegations out of the shadows and see if they held any substance. I have found that the Modlin accusation that Meyer shot 50 Jews bears no foundation other than one uncorroborated testament from a man who may have had other motivations for telling that story. As you have seen above, I find that case against Meyer for the killing and burning of a village near Kharkov holds much evidence and I would have liked to have seen this case go to trial where more evidence could have been presented for the prosecution and the defence. I do believe there is more evidence out there, but my limited resources can bring me no further. I challenge anyone else to search for themselves; I am more than happy to accept new evidence even if it conflicts with mine, if it is from a reliable source. I wish to again thank everyone who answered my questions and PM’s and offered encouragement during the search, most of the leads and insights came from this Forum and I have tried to stick to the facts as best I could.
C.B.

[krichter33]

Excellent!!!!

[Harro]

[Harro]

Whether Max Wunsche was there or not is a matter of speculation only, I have found no evidence to support or deny this. I do believe at the very least that Wunsche would have been aware of it after the fact, as were probably most of the Leibstandarte in that area. Having read his British interrogation documents, I personally believe that Wunsche would never have told this story to anyone who could have used it against Meyer.

Volume III of de divisional history by Lehmann/Tiemann mentions Wünsche and it gives us some insight in the time table of the day thanks to the info they used from the Divisionsbefehl:

17. Februar 1943 – Am frühen Vormittag beobachtet die Aufklärungsabteilung, dass sich aus Osten in mehreren Kolonnen Feind auf Jefremowka zu bewegt. Die beide Kommandeure, Meyer und Wünsche, sprechen sich dahingehend ab, dass die verstärkte Aufklärungsabteilung am Ortsrand in Stellung geht und den Gegner auflaufen lässt. Die Panzerabteilung will, weit ausholend, danach trachten, mit den in Paraskoweja befindlichen Kompanien, durch Ausnutzung des welligen Geländes, in Flanke und Rücken der feindlichen Kolonnen zu kommen und sie so zu vernichten. Über Funk erhält die Kompanie in Paraskoweja den Befehl. Alles klappt; schon eine Stunde nach Befehlseingang kann die verstärkte 2. Kompanie des Panzerregiment LSSAH Feindberührung melden. Mit über 20 Panzern bricht sie auf breiter Front in Flanke und Rücken der Russen ein. Die völlig überraschten Panzerabwehrkanonen der Sowjets kommen nicht dazu, in Stellung zu gehen. Sie werden getroffen und niedergewalzt. Die Infanteriekolonnen werden vernichtet und zersprengt. Auch die mit Ochsen bespannte Artillerie wird von diesem Angriff erfasst. Bei Jefremowka vernichten die Aufklärungsabteilung und Panzerabteilung Wünsche 1200 Mann (Schützenregiment 747 der 172. Schützendivision) und 8 Geschütze 7,62.

Im Divisionsbefehl Nr. 5 (Div.Gef.Std., den 17. Februar 1943, 13.00 Uhr) erhält die verstärkte Aufklärungsabteilung den Auftrag Jefremowka zu halten, bis der Südflügel der Kampfgruppe "Der Führer" sich vom Feinde gelöst hat und steht anschließend zur Verfügung der Division im Ostteil Starowerowka. Die Leibstandarte und die ihr unterstellten Teile lösen sich am 17. Februar 1943 aus der Linie Jefremowka - Ochotschaje Ost - Taranowka - und halten die Linie Beresowka (einschl.) - Melechowka - Höhe nördl. Ochotschaje - Ostrand Rjabuchino - Höhen südlich. Borki. Beginn des Lösens: 17. Februar 1943, 16.30 Uhr.

[Reader3000]

[Panzerass's new account here]

This is very, very interesting. Thanks for the rich information from the interrogation files. I myself had ordered some files from the Canadian archives about the Normandy war crimes some years ago.

It is very sad that there is no profound and critical study about Wünsche published yet. Some ten years ago or so there was a forum member here who wanted to do a book on him, but that guy disappeared and we never heared about him again.

Also, as you mentioned R. Butler in some previous post, please keep in mind that his books are not that reliable - maybe the photos are nice and correct, but the text is not 100%ish correct sometimes. In addition one has to note that Foster's book "Meeting of Generals" is highly detailed, but we have no credit for the sources directly with the text. That's a big bummer and letdown for any critical researcer. How fine and interesting it might be and that Foster visited and interviewed Meyer's mother and so - no foot- or endnotes are a pain in the a**.

I hope there will be some more information about Wünsche soon!

[Marcus]

Welcome back.

/Marcus

[Rob - wssob2]

Great thead, Seaburn! Thanks so much for your detailed posts and sharing your research with the forum - R

[seaburn]

As a matter of interest. Can anyone tell me how many men approx would have been in the Recon Btl ? and if any of them were then or later became known 'personalities' ? I was reading the Wiki site of Gustav Knittel for instance and it seems to indicate that that he would have been with Meyer on Feb 17th 1943 when this atrocity happened ? Would I be correct ?