Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?

[krichter33]

You should ask Harro. He's the resident Gustav Knittel expert on the forum...

[Harro]

That's incorrect:

On 15 February Meyer and Wünsche wanted to reach the lines of Fritz Witt and Knittel with his company was send to Bereka to reconnoitre the planned route.[7] He found Bereka occupied by the Red Army and he was wounded in the following attack.[5] The next day the combined battlegroup of Meyer and Wünsche managed to reach Yefremivka.[3][7] Knittel was hospitalized with a leg wound but returned to his company for the successful counterattack on Kharkov.

Knittel was wounded on February 15, was transported to the Feldlazarett in Krasnograd on the 16th and was in the Feldlazarett in Poltawa on the 18th. With Wawrzinek also wounded, Leidreiter led the le. SPW Kompanie until Knittel returnd a few weeks later.

Minor personalities in the AA LAH at that time were Gerd Bremer, Hermann Weiser and Erich Olboeter

[seaburn]

Thanks 'Harro' for settling that, I wasn't clear if he was there or not, glad to get the record straight. While researching this I was only concentrating on the event and I hadn't really thought of the others who may have been there as I would not have the in depth knowledge to know where to find their names, they have always been shadowy figures in my mind so its interesting to me to learn that there were individuals who were or became quite well known. I have come across Gerd Bremer and Erich Olboeter's names before, but not Herman Weiser. The fact that these guys would have been written about in other publications is of great interest. Tks again

[Harro]

My pleasure, I suppose you came across the wiki article about Weiser?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Weiser

Extremely incomplete and they even managed to get his nickname wrong (it was "Piepel"). Regarding Charkow, there's not much to say about Weiser except that he was there from the start in late January till the finish in late March, was awarded the Ritterkreuz for his actions during the Charkow battles and left the AA LAH in April to become Sepp Dietrich's adjutant.

[seaburn]

Tks, yes, was checking up on each of them, I had seen the picture of Weiser getting his RK from Meyer before but I hadn't remembered the name. I see there was a discussion about him before from way back on this forum in 2004. I've found that this forum is the source of ALL the best information ! The other two I had read about more in relation to their time with the 12th SS in Normandy. There was a piece I posted earlier about Meyers disdain for partisan activity from 'Grenadiers' page 303, it was in relation to Erich Olboeter's death after he ran over a mine in early Sept 44. As I said, it interests me greatly to be able to put names and faces to these men who up to now have just been shadows in my mind.

By the by, how many men would have been in the Recon unit at that time approx ?

[Reader3000]

Indeed, Bremer and Olboeter were put into 12th SS-Division after the Charkow battles, as was Meyer. Although it is a bit confusing how exactly Meyer's way in spring-summer of 1943 was like until he arrived at the 12th SS-Division.

There are some topics here on the forum about the Olboeter incident in Belgium Sept. 44. Try to search for them (had photos of him, if I remember correctly).

As for how many men were in the Aufklärungsabteilung - that depended. Norms according the KStN versus ongoing battles and wounded/dead loss as a factor.

Did you get the files about Wünsche yet?

[seaburn]

Tks for your insights. I am indeed in pursuit of Max Wunsches Canadian interrogations, but more as a sideline to this investigation rather than to find any more new evidence as I doubt very much that there will be anything to add to what we already know. I have already been told by my Canadian contact that Wunsche denied any knowledge of this incident when he was asked about it. It's unclear at this point if he was asked was he there or if he was being asked about Meyer's group. Obviously, if I find any information pertinent to this investigation, I will post my findings.

[seaburn]

I have come across an interesting piece in a book I'm reading. Its called 'The Hitler Book' and it is a translation of a Russian investigation into AH . The source of the Russian information comes from the interrogations of Heinz Linge and Otto Gunsche and other un-named POWs, the Russian Secret Police also were tasked with gleaning any information they could. The finished work was handed to Stalin in 1949 and kept in the Russian Archives where it was uncovered by Matthias Uhl.

The Soviets appeared to be very interested in the Leibstandarte and its here that I found something of interest.

"The SS men in the Leibstandarte were ordered to level Russian towns and villages. They would acquire such a terrible reputation that the Leibstandarte's very name would inspire such dread and horror in the Russian mind. It was drummed into them that the Leibstandarte should leave only scorched earth behind as it marched through Russia. Should the Fuhrer arrive in the area, it should be immediately clear to him that his Leibstandarte had been through...........Sepp Dietrich issued orders that no prisoners were to be taken - they were to be shot on the spot........At the beginning of August the Leibstandarte swung into Uman. Although hardly six weeks had gone by since the attack on Soviet Russia, the regiment had already suffered heavy losses that exceeded its casualties in Poland, France and Greece........In the fighting near Kherson, the dog that belonged to Sturmbannfuhrer Meyer, commander of the Reconnaissance Battalion, was killed by shrapnel. To avenge the dead creature, Meyer assembled thirty peaceful inhabitants and shot them with his own hands" (Pages 76,77, 'The Hitler Book' edited by Henrik Eberle and Matthias Uhl)

It's unclear where the Soviets sourced this story from and the editors do urge caution when accepting this document in general as historically accurate, they say that they believe much was deliberately left out and there was still much that the authors did not know at the time of writing but overall they found it tallied in the main with the findings of the Allied powers.

For our interest, its the second time that we have heard the theory that the death of Meyers dog led to the murder of civilians. However in this case it is reported that this happened in the first few weeks after the Leibstandarte arrived on the Russian front and not in 1943 in Jefremovka. It's also unclear if the Allied line of questioning of Meyer at his trial was as a result of Soviet intelligence or if they had indepently obtained the information themselves. So it would seem that this is a third accusation personally leveled against Kurt Meyer and it would be worth trying to find any further information to verify if this really happened.

[krichter33]

The Hitler Book tends to be controversial due to the way a lot of the "evidence" was obtained by the Soviets. As far as Meyer and his dog is concerned, it is interesting that this is another source that claims this story. Whether or not the information was given to the the Western allies, or was independently discovered would add credence to the claim. As far as Leibstandarte's supposed official scorched earth policy, and Dietrich's orders of no prisoners to be taken, this is more difficult to prove. Leibstandarte did burn down a lot of villages, like other German divisions, and shot a lot of prisoners. However, they also captured alive a lot of prisoners as well, which would go directly against any such official policy.

[seaburn]

I agree 'Krichter' It's my personal belief that this document had an agenda to conform evidence to the view already taken by the Soviets. They were determined to show AH in the worst light naturally, his anti Communism, his greed for lebensraum and his disdain for the slavic race. They saw the Leibstandarte as the natural armed extension of this belief and policy, much like the West viewed Saddam H's. Republican Guard. We all know the Leibstandarte were not there to win hearts and minds and in fairness to the Soviets there was a truth in their claims of village burnings and shooting of POWs but to anyone who has studied the war on the Eastern Front, I'm sure they are aware that this was not done in every instance or just by the Leibstandarte alone.

Normally I'd be very reluctant to post anything that had no source or corroboration but I think this piece is intriguing and deserves to be in the least discussed if not investigated. There were only a few lines but it included all the information, the why, the where, the when, the who, and was specific in the number of people shot and that it was done personally by Kurt Meyer. Its also worth noting that this wasn't done as a character assassination of Meyer as in 'The infamous Meyer who went on to command the 12th HJ and be accused of war crimes...yadda yadda..' There was no other explanation about him personally and the feeling is that they didn't know much about him when they were writing it, meaning that it could have been written before his trial in December 45.

I do believe the Soviets were told this story, but I've no idea by whom. If it was independent from the British/Canadian source, it would obviously need to be taken more seriously, and by the same token, if it from the same source with no other corroborating evidence, then some scepticism would need to be administered. I have done a cursory search online for the place and time and have come up with nothing. As usual, I offer the information to anyone who may be able to dig further and find some more evidence.

[Reader3000]

However, they also captured alive a lot of prisoners as well, which would go directly against any such official policy.

They also used some of them as porter for ammunition in the Kursk battle in summer of 1943 for example.

But, all in all, it is very clear that we need a scientific and clear study upon Meyer in the war. For his time after the war there is a study about the HIAG and his role seems to be analyzed in depth (I did not read it yet) and puzzle pieces are found in the study about anti-partisan warfare of the Germans in Italy by Carlo Gentile. I am also waiting for the publication of Westemeier's dissertation. No clue yet in how much he looked at Meyer, because Meyer clearly is not a product of the Junkerschulen, but had contacts leading up to Goebbels.

In addition (and I know that might be very far fetched) - one could imagine that those who were interrogated by the Russians had slightly bad feelings of envy towards Meyer and others who got into Western captivity and those might had an internal attitude like "yeah, but we were there until the end".

[seaburn]

[Reader3000 wrote: " because Meyer clearly is not a product of the Junkerschulen, but had contacts leading up to Goebbels"]

I'm a bit perplexed by this statement, can you explain what you mean, sounds like it might be intriguing.

[Reader3000]

[Reader3000 wrote: " because Meyer clearly is not a product of the Junkerschulen, but had contacts leading up to Goebbels"]

I'm a bit perplexed by this statement, can you explain what you mean, sounds like it might be intriguing.

Sorry for the late reply!

Hmm, I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Kurt Meyer aka Panzermeyer or "der schnelle Meyer" joined the SA pretty early and made kind of a name by being very political if you can trust 'Meeting of Generals' by Foster.

Toghether with some others he attended the wedding of Goebbels in 1931 as one of several security guards. There's a photo in the biography of a later high ranking w-ss member who was there with him (forgot the name at the moment, read it too long ago, but I'll look it up).

[PF]

Postscript on Milius
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4&start=15
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=84370
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=146441
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8&t=149300

[seaburn]

I have received Max Wunsches lengthy Canadian Interrogations and have gone through them. As you would expect they mainly focus on the Normandy Campaign but there were some questions put to him about the Eastern Front. The interrogation was conducted by Lt-Col B.J.S. Mac Donald OBE, ED, Essex Scottish Regiment C.A.of the 'No.1 Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit', in The London PW Cage, Kensington Palace Gardens, on the 7th of September 1945. at 1500hrs.


Q18. Now I observe that you served with the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler in Russia.
A18. Yes

Q19. With what unit did you serve there?
A19. The Divisions Adjutant and Command of the Sturmgeschutz Abtg and Command of a Panzer Battalion. This was in succession not at the same time.

Q20. By reason of your service there, I presume you are quite familiar with the Campaign in the vicinity of Kharkov?
A20. I fought at Kharkov

Q21. Do you know a village named Jefremowka?
A21. The names I do not recall exactly, this name rather.

Q22. Who Commanded the Anti-tank Battalion of your Division at that time, in the Campaign?
A22. I cannot say this with precision. At the beginning of the Campaign in Russia, the Division only had an Anti-tank Company.

Q23. Who commanded that?
A23. PRINZ

Q24. Did you know a Sturmbannfuhrer HANREICH?
A24. Yes, during the Invasion. He was in charge of the Anti-tank Battalion.

Q25. What did he command then in Russia?
A25. I cannot answer that question with accuracy. At some time I believe he was in charge of supplies.

Q26. He did serve as a Hauptsturmfuhrer with your Division in Russia did he not?
A26. Yes.

Q27. Now he has told us that a…..that the Reconnaissance Battalion of your Division commanded by Sturmbannfuhrer Kurt MEYER were in an engagement in Jefremowka.
A27. I cannot tell you whether the Recce Unit… Recce Btln rather was there at the time, but I know it was commanded by Sturmbannfuhrer Kurt MEYER.

Q28. Now, I have information here from a previous interrogation in which you are reported to have said “That Prisoners of War were on occasion killed in the Russian Campaign following the discovery that SS men taken prisoner were tortured and then killed by the Russians”.
A28. It must be a mistake, because what I explained was that men from our Division had been found around Taganrog shot and tortured.

Q29. Well, you are quoted as having said as a consequence that your men did not take prisoners too.
A29. I have not said that.

Q30. Well, what did you say? Other Officers, I might tell you, from your Division have admitted that already.
A30. I did not say that. I did say this, in the East the fighting was very tough at times.

Q31. You’re familiar with the laws and usages of war I suppose?
A31. Yes.

Q32. And you are familiar, I suppose also with the provisions of the Geneva Convention?
A32. Yes.

Q33. I suppose you also know that your country and Russia have no treaty by which the provisions of the Geneva Convention apply?
A33. Yes, I know.

Q34. So that as between Germany and Russia, you are not bound to observe the provisions of the Geneva Convention?
A34. I have also followed the law of war in Russia.

Q35. I am not asking you what you did, I am asking you do you not agree that the Geneva Convention did not apply in Russia?
A35. Yes.

Q36. Now, by reason of that fact and by reason of what you said the Russian treatment of your prisoners to be, we have been told by numerous members of your Division that it sometimes happened that you did not take prisoners, and I don’t mean you personally, but your forces. Now do you agree or disagree with that statement?
A36. I cannot make a statement on that as in the armoured unit we had very little opportunity to take prisoners.

Q37. Now, did you ever hear it said by anyone that in the withdrawal from the place called Jefremowka, the Reconnaissance Battalion of your Division, commanded at the time by Sturmbannfuhrer Kurt MEYER, destroyed the Village and shot all the inhabitants?
A37. I don’t know about that.

Q38. That is not the answer to my question. I asked you if you ever heard that story from anyone at the time?
A38. No


(So ends the questioning about the Eastern Front. Wunsche was re-interrogated in the same location by the same team on the 19th November 1945 at 1500hrs to go through the above document and confirm or change any details. This was the month before Kurt Meyers trial at Aurich. He made the following changes to answers 27 and 30)

Q27. Cut out the word ‘Recce Btln’. I wish to add for your clearer understanding that anything to do with Recce is always a unit (Abteilung). All units that are directly under Divisional command are referred to as ‘Abteilung’ while the units that are under Regimental command are referred to as ‘Battalion’. With the exception of the Panzer Regiment whose subordinate units are not referred to as Battalions, but as ‘Abteilung’ and another exception is the Pionier (sic) Battalion, which although referred to as a Battalion is directly under Divisional control.

Q30. I wish to add “that proof that our Division sent prisoners back to Prisoner of War camps in the rear is proof that we took prisoners".

By Lt-Col Mac Donald (this is where he asked questions back about these adjustments)

Q4. You are speaking now of the LAH?
A4. Yes Sir

Q5. To clarify that matter so that you won’t be incorrectly reported, I will ask you now, who were the commanders of your two Abteilung?

A5. Sturmbannfuhrer JURGENSEN commanded the first Abteilung and Sturmbannfuhrer PRINZ commanded the second.



So, as anticipated and perhaps understandably in the circumstances, Wunsche admits nothing, not even to hearing about the attack on Jefremowka. :roll: The Canadians obviously didn't have the information that he was very much in the area at that time as the evidence posted earlier in this thread shows. I'm sure they would not have been so half-hearted in their questioning if they had the fuller picture.

It was a missed opportunity, but as Hanreich never mentioned Wunsches name in relation to Jefremowka, you can understand how this over-site happened. I do feel they should have known by this time that Meyer and Wunsche were 'brothers in arms' with a very close bond, IMO they should have tackled him on the fact that he denied even hearing about it. As an aside, It was of interest to me to see that Wunsche was told that Hanreich had provided the information, I did wonder if Meyer ever found that out, undoubtedly after this, he did!