Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Sorry i should have made it clearer. I realise that he was wounded on the 17th, fatally and died on the 20th as per your previous post and my findings. Apologies if I didn't clarify that again properly.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Hi all, after the last piece of evidence found, I have felt compelled to collect all the data so far accumulated and send it by registered post to Jefremowka. I'm doing this because the only local document I have seen from there indicates that there may be confusion as to who carried out this atrocity. I have been very kindly assisted by a Forum member from Ukraine who has supplied me with an address and has translated a letter and the main points of evidence. I will print them here, it anyone thinks something should be added, please let me know asap as I'm anxious to send this off.
Here is a summery of the documents attached, I have numbered them accordingly:
(A) The evidence of Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg. This was a secret recording by the British of a conversation he had while he was a Prisoner of War. They do not state his full name on the Document but I believe him to be Wilifried von Muller Rienzburg of the Luftwaffe who was captured by the British in 1943.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 – page 45
(B) The evidence of Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich of the ‘Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler’ from August 1944. He was serving in the area at the time, but he denies that he was with Meyer on the 17th February. This man was a member of that division since 1933 and served with Kurt Meyer since 1937. He went on to serve under Meyer in the ‘12th SS Hitler –Jugend’ in France. It was there in August 1944 he was captured and he told his story in his interrogation of that year.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 – pages 230/1/2
(C) The second interrogation of Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich of the 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler'. This interrogation was conducted by the Canadians in 1945. Hanreich adds more detail to his accusation against Meyer. Please note that he tells the same story one year after his first interrogation.
Source: Canadian National Archives . No, I Canadian War Crimes Investigation unit. Record of evidence of Jacob-Hans Hanreich. P.W. A767808, Sturmbannfuhrer, Officer commanding Anti-Tank Battalion, 12SS Panzer Division (Hitler-Jugend). Investigator – Examiner Lt Col B.J.S Mc Donald, OBE, ED, Essex Scottish Regiment, C…..
The Investigating Team assembled at PW Camp, ALVA, OKLAHOMA, U.S.A. on the 21st/23rd July, 1945.
(D) Evidence that Hanreich was serving close to Jefremowka in February 1943 and would therefor have heard the story very soon after the event.
Source: Book by George M Niep ‘Last Victory in Russia’: page 125
(E) The evidence of SS Haupsharfuhrer (Einsatz kommando3 Sicherhoits Polizoi) M320. This man was captured in 1943 in Italy and he was secretly recorded telling this story. There are details in this story that are similar to a document I received from Ukraine, including the men being made to shovel snow and the burning of these men in a church. This man believes the motive for the atrocity was the killing of Meyers Dog which he had received as a gift from Adolf Hitler.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: WO208/4138-page 18
(F) Kurt Meyer was captured in September 1944 in Belgium; he was brought to the United Kingdom and imprisoned there. He was then interrogated and was asked about Jefremowka and also about receiving dogs from Hitler. I attach his interrogation on the matter. He denies he had ever heard of Jefremowka or that he had received Dogs from Hitler.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 –pages 84,85,118,138,139,154,155,160
(G) There was a biography of Kurt Meyer written by Tony Foster, this was written over 20 years after Meyer’s death but with the co-operation of Meyer’s family. There are many personal stories in this book; one tells the story of Meyer receiving a dog from Hitler which means that Meyer lied in his interrogation.
Source: Tony Foster ‘Meeting of Generals’ page 252
(H) Kurt Meyer wrote his autobiography after his release from prison in 1955. He tells the story of being encircled and running out of fuel and ammunition. He then tells of the relief of his troops and how they fought out of encirclement. He then quotes a paragraph where he tells of coming under attack from civilians for the first time on the Eastern Front. The month of this story is February 1943 and I think it is significant. These details match the story told by Jacob Hanreich.
Source: Kurt Meyer ‘Grenadiers’ pages 172, 173
(I) In the above paragraph he says that ‘Fritz Montag’ was fatally wounded when he drove over a mine, he lost his two legs above the knee and was brought to Meyer while still alive. This is a document with the date of that incident. It happened on February 17th 1943, this may also be the motive for the atrocity.
Source: Verlustmeldung 29th June 1943
(J) Details from the records of the Leibstandarte that Meyers Reconnaissance Battalion were in Jefremowka on the 16th/17th February 1943.
Source: Volume III of the divisional history of the Leibstandarte by Lehmann/Tiemann.
(K) The interrogation of Waffen SS Standartenfuhrer Max Wunsche of the ‘Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler’ who relieved Kurt Meyers Reconnaissance Battalion in February 1943. Hanreich stated that the atrocity in Jefremowka happened before the relief by Wünsche’s group, but from Lehmann/Tiemann’s records, on February 17th Wunsche had already relieved Meyer’s group and indeed in Meyer’s book, it appears that the atrocity happened after the relief. The British were not aware that Wunsche may have been there and they do not push him on the point, but they do ask him if he heard about Jefremowka. I have found no evidence that Wunsche took part in this atrocity but at the very least he would have definitely heard about it which he denies.
Source: Canadian Archives 'No.1 Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit', in The London PW Cage, Kensington Palace Gardens, on the 7th of September 1945. at 1500hrs.
(L) A small reference in Meyer’s book where he states that in March 1943 his Division returned to the area of Jefremowka, a place that was familiar to them from the fighting in February. This of course contradicts his interrogation testimony were he said he had never heard of Jefremowka.
Source: Kurt Meyer ‘Grenadiers’ Page 184.
(M) This is the document I received from a contact in Ukraine, this document blames many people for the killing in Jefremowka but I believe it to be wrong as the evidence I have found points to Kurt Meyer, Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler as the man responsible.
Source: Unknown
I think that covers it all. I will of course let the Forum know if I get a reply or if I receive any additional local evidence, even contradictory evidence.
C.B.
Here is a summery of the documents attached, I have numbered them accordingly:
(A) The evidence of Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg. This was a secret recording by the British of a conversation he had while he was a Prisoner of War. They do not state his full name on the Document but I believe him to be Wilifried von Muller Rienzburg of the Luftwaffe who was captured by the British in 1943.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 – page 45
(B) The evidence of Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich of the ‘Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler’ from August 1944. He was serving in the area at the time, but he denies that he was with Meyer on the 17th February. This man was a member of that division since 1933 and served with Kurt Meyer since 1937. He went on to serve under Meyer in the ‘12th SS Hitler –Jugend’ in France. It was there in August 1944 he was captured and he told his story in his interrogation of that year.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 – pages 230/1/2
(C) The second interrogation of Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich of the 'Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler'. This interrogation was conducted by the Canadians in 1945. Hanreich adds more detail to his accusation against Meyer. Please note that he tells the same story one year after his first interrogation.
Source: Canadian National Archives . No, I Canadian War Crimes Investigation unit. Record of evidence of Jacob-Hans Hanreich. P.W. A767808, Sturmbannfuhrer, Officer commanding Anti-Tank Battalion, 12SS Panzer Division (Hitler-Jugend). Investigator – Examiner Lt Col B.J.S Mc Donald, OBE, ED, Essex Scottish Regiment, C…..
The Investigating Team assembled at PW Camp, ALVA, OKLAHOMA, U.S.A. on the 21st/23rd July, 1945.
(D) Evidence that Hanreich was serving close to Jefremowka in February 1943 and would therefor have heard the story very soon after the event.
Source: Book by George M Niep ‘Last Victory in Russia’: page 125
(E) The evidence of SS Haupsharfuhrer (Einsatz kommando3 Sicherhoits Polizoi) M320. This man was captured in 1943 in Italy and he was secretly recorded telling this story. There are details in this story that are similar to a document I received from Ukraine, including the men being made to shovel snow and the burning of these men in a church. This man believes the motive for the atrocity was the killing of Meyers Dog which he had received as a gift from Adolf Hitler.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: WO208/4138-page 18
(F) Kurt Meyer was captured in September 1944 in Belgium; he was brought to the United Kingdom and imprisoned there. He was then interrogated and was asked about Jefremowka and also about receiving dogs from Hitler. I attach his interrogation on the matter. He denies he had ever heard of Jefremowka or that he had received Dogs from Hitler.
Source: British National Archives. Document Number: TS26/856 –pages 84,85,118,138,139,154,155,160
(G) There was a biography of Kurt Meyer written by Tony Foster, this was written over 20 years after Meyer’s death but with the co-operation of Meyer’s family. There are many personal stories in this book; one tells the story of Meyer receiving a dog from Hitler which means that Meyer lied in his interrogation.
Source: Tony Foster ‘Meeting of Generals’ page 252
(H) Kurt Meyer wrote his autobiography after his release from prison in 1955. He tells the story of being encircled and running out of fuel and ammunition. He then tells of the relief of his troops and how they fought out of encirclement. He then quotes a paragraph where he tells of coming under attack from civilians for the first time on the Eastern Front. The month of this story is February 1943 and I think it is significant. These details match the story told by Jacob Hanreich.
Source: Kurt Meyer ‘Grenadiers’ pages 172, 173
(I) In the above paragraph he says that ‘Fritz Montag’ was fatally wounded when he drove over a mine, he lost his two legs above the knee and was brought to Meyer while still alive. This is a document with the date of that incident. It happened on February 17th 1943, this may also be the motive for the atrocity.
Source: Verlustmeldung 29th June 1943
(J) Details from the records of the Leibstandarte that Meyers Reconnaissance Battalion were in Jefremowka on the 16th/17th February 1943.
Source: Volume III of the divisional history of the Leibstandarte by Lehmann/Tiemann.
(K) The interrogation of Waffen SS Standartenfuhrer Max Wunsche of the ‘Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler’ who relieved Kurt Meyers Reconnaissance Battalion in February 1943. Hanreich stated that the atrocity in Jefremowka happened before the relief by Wünsche’s group, but from Lehmann/Tiemann’s records, on February 17th Wunsche had already relieved Meyer’s group and indeed in Meyer’s book, it appears that the atrocity happened after the relief. The British were not aware that Wunsche may have been there and they do not push him on the point, but they do ask him if he heard about Jefremowka. I have found no evidence that Wunsche took part in this atrocity but at the very least he would have definitely heard about it which he denies.
Source: Canadian Archives 'No.1 Canadian War Crimes Investigation Unit', in The London PW Cage, Kensington Palace Gardens, on the 7th of September 1945. at 1500hrs.
(L) A small reference in Meyer’s book where he states that in March 1943 his Division returned to the area of Jefremowka, a place that was familiar to them from the fighting in February. This of course contradicts his interrogation testimony were he said he had never heard of Jefremowka.
Source: Kurt Meyer ‘Grenadiers’ Page 184.
(M) This is the document I received from a contact in Ukraine, this document blames many people for the killing in Jefremowka but I believe it to be wrong as the evidence I have found points to Kurt Meyer, Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler as the man responsible.
Source: Unknown
I think that covers it all. I will of course let the Forum know if I get a reply or if I receive any additional local evidence, even contradictory evidence.
C.B.
-
Reader3000
- Member
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: 10 Nov 2002, 17:01
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
This is very well done research - please let us know if you get a reply and what their reaction is.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Hi Seaburn. I can’t say if Meyer did or did this, but I’ll play Devils advocate and dispute your Jefremowka atrocity. I will attempt to punch holes in the theory and you can patch them back up. I very quickly read 6 pages and over 70 posts very quickly today for the first time, so forgive me if I have missed anything.
Firstly I’ll say I personally dislike testimony given by 1 witness only. It’s a case of He says this and I say that. Who’s telling the truth? However 2 witnesses who report the same event do have much more credibility. Also none of your witnesses are eyewitnesses and are acting on speech after the event, if at all.
A) Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg first of all calls the SS people at the Regimental Course in Munster “Sheiks”. Name calling however childish shows dislike. Muller- Rienzburg seems to dislike the SS and Meyer. Also at the end of the war many Germans claims to have never been Nazi’s and everything bad that had ever been done in Hitler’s name was the SS (Alibi of a Nation.) and not by us. So an Army Officer (Who we don’t even know his first name and who he really is.) says an SS Sheikh told me this. Even if it was true it’s a conversation and not testimony to the event. So I find your witness, unreliable in the extreme and even if Meyer did say this, Muller- Rienzburg has no other witnesses to the conversation and lastly and mostly importantly he did not witness the supposed event.
B) Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich did not witness the event. He was not in the area of the event and he claims he was told this verbally by other LAH members who he can’t recall who? Again even if he was told this, he did not witness the event and therefore witnessed nothing.
C) As above. Eyewitness to nothing, but Earwitness to heresay.
D) As above. Eyewitness to nothing, but Earwitness to heresay.
E) I’m not aware of this in the previous notes. Can you post a link? But again if it’s an Earwitness and not an Eyewitness it means nothing.
F) Russia’s a huge place and some of these villages probably didn’t even appear on Maps. I live in one of the most mapped places on earth and I couldn’t tell you the names of some villages within 5 miles of my home town. They are numerous little small places. Perhaps he didn’t know the name of every village they came into contact with. But then an interrogator mentions Jefremowka and it genuinely doesn’t mean anything to Meyer. But now Meyer has 10 years in captivity to write Grenadiers and to correspond with old comrades about where they were on such and such a date and what was the name of that Village and why are the interrogators asking about a place called Jefremowka. Well we were there or near there on such and such a date and it gets added to the book. Regarding the Dog, maybe being seen as being such a good friend of Hitler that he’d give you a puppy wasn’t the best thing to admit to in 1945. Especially with what was coming out about the holocaust etc. Hitler gave lots of gifts to many people. But why admit to something that shows you were closer than most? And secondly are you really really going to kill dozens of people because your dog died? Are you going to order your junior officers to kill civilians because of your dog? Maybe if your comrade died like Helmut Kampfe for Oradour or you suspected Partisans, but for a dog?? Crazy?
G) As above.
H) His unit may have come under attack by civilians for the first time then, but it’s circumstantial and doesn’t prove anything.
I) Sorry for his Comrades death, but again Circumstantial and doesn’t prove anything.
J) If they were in the area on the day fair enough, but I am still looking for evidence of a crime being committed?
K) Wunsche stated he’d never heard of the atrocity
L) See answer F
M) What document?
N) My own statement. What physical evidence is there that something even happened? Where are the bodies? Were they
photographed?
Again apologises as I literally skimmed over the posts and I have missed anything blatantly obvious I am sorry
Thanx
Firstly I’ll say I personally dislike testimony given by 1 witness only. It’s a case of He says this and I say that. Who’s telling the truth? However 2 witnesses who report the same event do have much more credibility. Also none of your witnesses are eyewitnesses and are acting on speech after the event, if at all.
A) Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg first of all calls the SS people at the Regimental Course in Munster “Sheiks”. Name calling however childish shows dislike. Muller- Rienzburg seems to dislike the SS and Meyer. Also at the end of the war many Germans claims to have never been Nazi’s and everything bad that had ever been done in Hitler’s name was the SS (Alibi of a Nation.) and not by us. So an Army Officer (Who we don’t even know his first name and who he really is.) says an SS Sheikh told me this. Even if it was true it’s a conversation and not testimony to the event. So I find your witness, unreliable in the extreme and even if Meyer did say this, Muller- Rienzburg has no other witnesses to the conversation and lastly and mostly importantly he did not witness the supposed event.
B) Sturmbannfuhrer Jacob Hanreich did not witness the event. He was not in the area of the event and he claims he was told this verbally by other LAH members who he can’t recall who? Again even if he was told this, he did not witness the event and therefore witnessed nothing.
C) As above. Eyewitness to nothing, but Earwitness to heresay.
D) As above. Eyewitness to nothing, but Earwitness to heresay.
E) I’m not aware of this in the previous notes. Can you post a link? But again if it’s an Earwitness and not an Eyewitness it means nothing.
F) Russia’s a huge place and some of these villages probably didn’t even appear on Maps. I live in one of the most mapped places on earth and I couldn’t tell you the names of some villages within 5 miles of my home town. They are numerous little small places. Perhaps he didn’t know the name of every village they came into contact with. But then an interrogator mentions Jefremowka and it genuinely doesn’t mean anything to Meyer. But now Meyer has 10 years in captivity to write Grenadiers and to correspond with old comrades about where they were on such and such a date and what was the name of that Village and why are the interrogators asking about a place called Jefremowka. Well we were there or near there on such and such a date and it gets added to the book. Regarding the Dog, maybe being seen as being such a good friend of Hitler that he’d give you a puppy wasn’t the best thing to admit to in 1945. Especially with what was coming out about the holocaust etc. Hitler gave lots of gifts to many people. But why admit to something that shows you were closer than most? And secondly are you really really going to kill dozens of people because your dog died? Are you going to order your junior officers to kill civilians because of your dog? Maybe if your comrade died like Helmut Kampfe for Oradour or you suspected Partisans, but for a dog?? Crazy?
G) As above.
H) His unit may have come under attack by civilians for the first time then, but it’s circumstantial and doesn’t prove anything.
I) Sorry for his Comrades death, but again Circumstantial and doesn’t prove anything.
J) If they were in the area on the day fair enough, but I am still looking for evidence of a crime being committed?
K) Wunsche stated he’d never heard of the atrocity
L) See answer F
M) What document?
N) My own statement. What physical evidence is there that something even happened? Where are the bodies? Were they
photographed?
Again apologises as I literally skimmed over the posts and I have missed anything blatantly obvious I am sorry
Thanx
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Thank you for your post ‘Kamaraden’ and your observations. I welcome any discussion on this and hopefully it may lead to others who might have pertinent evidence either way to post as well. I understand you had a lot of information to wade through from the start to now. I’ll try to answer some of your points although I have admitted in many of my postings that the evidence is mostly circumstantial, in fact there are many pieces that would not stand up to scrutiny as ‘standalone’ testimony and like you I’ve had to use judgement and sometimes educated guesses to bridge some gaps.
Firstly the testimony of Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg, I didn’t know it at the time of posting that this was a ‘tapping file’ and not an interrogation. He was bugged having this conversation, I am not sure but I very much suspect he was an officer from the Luftwaffe, captured at the end of 1943. I totally agree with your assertion that he seems to have disliked Meyer in this piece and possibly the WSS in general, although, it may be because of the story he heard! But I wrote at the time that I found it a stretch to believe that KM had discussed this openly in front of officers who were not from the WSS. I still find that hard to believe, BUT I do think that afterwards, when a few drinks had been consumed that it is very possible that this story was told.
As a ‘standalone’ testimony, I concur that it’s pretty poor evidence, but it’s a strand that can be coupled with the other testimonies. And more importantly, he talks about Meyer setting out to be ‘encircled’ near Kharkov. This pinpoints the general area were this took place, he also says that everyone in the village was killed. So this wasn't about the retaking of Kharkov itself. So keep those points in mind.
The testimony of Jakob Hanreich, (LSAH): I know you assert that this is also only ‘hearsay’ but I strongly believe that his evidence is credible. He served with KM both in the LSAH and the 12th HJ, he knew him personally. He gave his initial evidence in 44 and then a year later he was still telling the same story. He was in the general area at the time and would have heard about this within days, my reason for believing him is this - he sang like a canary to his interrogators and he told them of other ‘war crimes’ committed by the LSAH including the killing of 50 Jews by Mueller-John in Poland, Peipers ‘blowlamp’ btln in Russia, and he also talked at length about how the Comd of the III Btln LSAH, H.Stufue. Albert Frey told him that thousands of Jews had been murdered S of Mariupol and in Tanganrog by the SD Einsatzkommando. All these crimes have since been verified in many books and studies.
Now my question is, Why would he lie about this accusation against about Kurt Meyer ? and Do you also see the connection between Hanreich’s testimony were he also talks about Meyers group being encircled by Soviet forces which links his evidence to that of Muller-Rienzburg.?
The third ‘witness’ was also a ‘tapped’ and yes, the story that the villagers were killed because of KMs dog being shot sounds hugely fantastical, but I would assert not impossible. The Recon btln had only been relieved from certain death some days before, the group had come under attack from ‘Partisans’ for the first time in the Russian campaign, Fritz Montag had been fatally wounded, who knows what a man’s breaking point is ? I will say, I thought at the start that the ‘dog’ story would be a complete red herring, but the one thing that bugs me about this is that KM denied he got a dog from Hitler, he didn't deny he had met Hitler, just that he had got the dog ? Why ? you say because it may have looked bad for him but that just doesn't wash with me, I think there is a ‘dog’ story somewhere, if it’s with this story, I can’t say obviously but there was a reference to Kurt Meyer having killed civilians in reprisal for the killing of his dog in a book called ‘The Hitler book’. This was based on the report Stalin ordered into eyewitness testimony about the life of Adolf Hitler, the LSAH featured in this report as well and the allegation was made that KM shot the civilians near Kherson in 1941 because his dog was shot. I was looking for evidence of that alleged incident when I came across that last ‘witness’ report. So the dog motive will always be‘inconclusive’. As far as finding a motive we will only know for sure if we find testimony of someone who was there.
And that’s my next point- Who the hell would admit under interrogation that they were there when this happened ???? Only an idiot who would be looking at deportation to Russia to face charges. The interrogators of Hanreich were highly suspicious that he was there when this happened, but I don’t believe he would have told the story if he was there as he would have been implicated as well.
Your point that KM might have forgotten the name of the village could be true but having seen his testimonies in his interrogations in which he could account for so many things so accurately and the fact he wrote such detail in his book 10 years after the events, makes it very doubtful in my eyes that he would have forgotten Jefremowka and its interesting that Wunsche also forgot the place too! If it did happen, they would never have admitted they were there. Also Hanreich named the village in his testimony, and he wasn't even there, or so he says...... Conclusive ? ..... No... but …….
The local document indicated in point (M) was a three page document I got from a contact in Ukraine. It told the story of Jefremowka and I was hoping it would put the matter to bed, but from the conclusions of two forum members who translated it for me, it was a mass of contradiction, distortions and downright lies, (in their words) The only thing that could be taken as reliable was that the event happened on Feb 17th 1943. There is a memorial to the dead in the village for this date. I had posted a request for the translation in the ‘breaking the sound barrier’ thread. This is the link to that request, in the answers you will see a link to the picture of the memorial to the people murdered and that’s where the evidence of the ‘bodies’ you were looking for is.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=200422
In that document there was a reference to ‘men sent to shovel snow’ and also that the total loss of life was 453 in Yefremovka and 412 (including 233 burned alive in the church) in nearby Semionovka. From the details in the last ‘hearsay’ evidence, our POW tells a very similar story.
So in conclusion the most damning evidence in my opinion is that Kurt Meyer can be placed in the village on the day that this memorial states that everyone in the village was killed, as per the Leibstandarte’s own records as posted on this thread.
How do you explain that ? Would it be feasible to say that KM’s group left and someone else came in and did this later that day ? Possible ? Why then does Hanreich say it was KM, how did the other two ‘hearsay’ witnesses get the story that it was Kurt Meyers group ? Do you see my point, each piece intertwines with another piece. Circumstantial ? Yes..indeed, what is needed is someone who may be still alive from the German side who was there and will tell the story, but as ‘their loyalty was their honour’ I’m not so sure even after all these years that we will ever get the definitive answer. It will be really up to each of us to make up our own minds. I know what I believe.
Thanks again for posting. If you wish to see any of the actual documents, feel free to PM me.
Firstly the testimony of Obstlt Muller- Rienzburg, I didn’t know it at the time of posting that this was a ‘tapping file’ and not an interrogation. He was bugged having this conversation, I am not sure but I very much suspect he was an officer from the Luftwaffe, captured at the end of 1943. I totally agree with your assertion that he seems to have disliked Meyer in this piece and possibly the WSS in general, although, it may be because of the story he heard! But I wrote at the time that I found it a stretch to believe that KM had discussed this openly in front of officers who were not from the WSS. I still find that hard to believe, BUT I do think that afterwards, when a few drinks had been consumed that it is very possible that this story was told.
As a ‘standalone’ testimony, I concur that it’s pretty poor evidence, but it’s a strand that can be coupled with the other testimonies. And more importantly, he talks about Meyer setting out to be ‘encircled’ near Kharkov. This pinpoints the general area were this took place, he also says that everyone in the village was killed. So this wasn't about the retaking of Kharkov itself. So keep those points in mind.
The testimony of Jakob Hanreich, (LSAH): I know you assert that this is also only ‘hearsay’ but I strongly believe that his evidence is credible. He served with KM both in the LSAH and the 12th HJ, he knew him personally. He gave his initial evidence in 44 and then a year later he was still telling the same story. He was in the general area at the time and would have heard about this within days, my reason for believing him is this - he sang like a canary to his interrogators and he told them of other ‘war crimes’ committed by the LSAH including the killing of 50 Jews by Mueller-John in Poland, Peipers ‘blowlamp’ btln in Russia, and he also talked at length about how the Comd of the III Btln LSAH, H.Stufue. Albert Frey told him that thousands of Jews had been murdered S of Mariupol and in Tanganrog by the SD Einsatzkommando. All these crimes have since been verified in many books and studies.
Now my question is, Why would he lie about this accusation against about Kurt Meyer ? and Do you also see the connection between Hanreich’s testimony were he also talks about Meyers group being encircled by Soviet forces which links his evidence to that of Muller-Rienzburg.?
The third ‘witness’ was also a ‘tapped’ and yes, the story that the villagers were killed because of KMs dog being shot sounds hugely fantastical, but I would assert not impossible. The Recon btln had only been relieved from certain death some days before, the group had come under attack from ‘Partisans’ for the first time in the Russian campaign, Fritz Montag had been fatally wounded, who knows what a man’s breaking point is ? I will say, I thought at the start that the ‘dog’ story would be a complete red herring, but the one thing that bugs me about this is that KM denied he got a dog from Hitler, he didn't deny he had met Hitler, just that he had got the dog ? Why ? you say because it may have looked bad for him but that just doesn't wash with me, I think there is a ‘dog’ story somewhere, if it’s with this story, I can’t say obviously but there was a reference to Kurt Meyer having killed civilians in reprisal for the killing of his dog in a book called ‘The Hitler book’. This was based on the report Stalin ordered into eyewitness testimony about the life of Adolf Hitler, the LSAH featured in this report as well and the allegation was made that KM shot the civilians near Kherson in 1941 because his dog was shot. I was looking for evidence of that alleged incident when I came across that last ‘witness’ report. So the dog motive will always be‘inconclusive’. As far as finding a motive we will only know for sure if we find testimony of someone who was there.
And that’s my next point- Who the hell would admit under interrogation that they were there when this happened ???? Only an idiot who would be looking at deportation to Russia to face charges. The interrogators of Hanreich were highly suspicious that he was there when this happened, but I don’t believe he would have told the story if he was there as he would have been implicated as well.
Your point that KM might have forgotten the name of the village could be true but having seen his testimonies in his interrogations in which he could account for so many things so accurately and the fact he wrote such detail in his book 10 years after the events, makes it very doubtful in my eyes that he would have forgotten Jefremowka and its interesting that Wunsche also forgot the place too! If it did happen, they would never have admitted they were there. Also Hanreich named the village in his testimony, and he wasn't even there, or so he says...... Conclusive ? ..... No... but …….
The local document indicated in point (M) was a three page document I got from a contact in Ukraine. It told the story of Jefremowka and I was hoping it would put the matter to bed, but from the conclusions of two forum members who translated it for me, it was a mass of contradiction, distortions and downright lies, (in their words) The only thing that could be taken as reliable was that the event happened on Feb 17th 1943. There is a memorial to the dead in the village for this date. I had posted a request for the translation in the ‘breaking the sound barrier’ thread. This is the link to that request, in the answers you will see a link to the picture of the memorial to the people murdered and that’s where the evidence of the ‘bodies’ you were looking for is.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=200422
In that document there was a reference to ‘men sent to shovel snow’ and also that the total loss of life was 453 in Yefremovka and 412 (including 233 burned alive in the church) in nearby Semionovka. From the details in the last ‘hearsay’ evidence, our POW tells a very similar story.
So in conclusion the most damning evidence in my opinion is that Kurt Meyer can be placed in the village on the day that this memorial states that everyone in the village was killed, as per the Leibstandarte’s own records as posted on this thread.
How do you explain that ? Would it be feasible to say that KM’s group left and someone else came in and did this later that day ? Possible ? Why then does Hanreich say it was KM, how did the other two ‘hearsay’ witnesses get the story that it was Kurt Meyers group ? Do you see my point, each piece intertwines with another piece. Circumstantial ? Yes..indeed, what is needed is someone who may be still alive from the German side who was there and will tell the story, but as ‘their loyalty was their honour’ I’m not so sure even after all these years that we will ever get the definitive answer. It will be really up to each of us to make up our own minds. I know what I believe.
Thanks again for posting. If you wish to see any of the actual documents, feel free to PM me.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
This is a purported eye witness account of what happened In Jefremowka from a Russian website. Please note that Jochen Peiper is being accused in this. However, I strongly disagree with this assertion and have details on another thread rebutting this claim:
see details here : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=206251
The following is translated automatically, you can visit the webpage here:
http://forum.chuguev.net//index.php?act ... 7ce02bb443
"This text - a verbatim transcript of the story from a resident. May Day Efremovka region Kharkov region. In February 1943, the 3rd Battalion pantsergrenadersky SS Division Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" under the command of SS-Obergruppenführer Joachim Peiper arranged in villages and Semenivka Efremovka local "Khatyn". I had an interview with one of the few survivors, and only dozhivshim to the present day people. The text of the interview - or rather, I decided to actually monologue verbatim play and expose to public inspection. I think that would be helpful. "... Reasons itself was not. February 12, 1943, we have lived on this street, and here came our advanced parts. Discontinuous, well, kind of intelligence, on horseback. They were in the village. church here and was just a few people, they traveled on horseback and fired from an aircraft. Look - one fell and killed our soldiers lying near the church. And then say: our go. Well, we went out, go, say, the Red Army, there can our fathers were. We ran out into the street, I see - is the first tank, and then APCs, and look - in German caps. And just one tank near the church and became like that they're around, but they are armored vehicles in our yard pozagonyali ... Well, then , then what happened. retreating soldiers and shots were fired and wounded two officers German. And in this headquarters, to the side, there Thekla grandmother lived, she was interrogated. Brought to bed put one seriously wounded, and the second floor. And hence, where, they say, men? They believed that the guerrillas. But we have not been here guerrillas. She tried to say that it is not under the guerrillas fired at the church, and here are several of them left and they fired. Wanted to say that it is the soldiers. But it hit his head on the stove and not listen. One man questioned too, and then taken out into the yard and shot and scored on the spot and made two stakes restroom on it. And then, right there translator told her I had written it all from those years that will kill people ... here ... and then saw that I was moved, saying, "Get on your knees." But I could not be. Then he stood in the midst of the road, there is always the corpses were lying. On your knees became covered in blood. Felt burned face and two more wounded. And I fell, the tank was above me, caught between the tracks. They drove on. There was a church in Semenovka. One grandmother was looking injured son in the cellar. They saw the old woman tied to the shutters and began as a target to shoot. And it was not until late in the evening, everything was burning, valilos, cattle bellowed, people moaning, screaming - it was awful. And in the morning I got out, the snow melted beneath me, I thought that the Germans were talking, it turned out that these people were screaming unconscious. Germans were not. I went to the neighbors and the people there 12 people were shot and one woman cooks, Aunt Motia, and she crawls on his chest a little kid burst skin, eyes emerged round ... And so, on every street, near each hut were corpses everywhere .... , tanks crushed them. Spiridonovna old woman Anna crept out of the burning house, crawling over the bodies and could not. I helped her to crawl. Sons sought to touch. One, too, burned alive, doused with gasoline and the second ... Walked into Efremovka, the terms of some corpses were scary looking. As fresh flowers ... (crying). Look - the church, the smoke goes. There were burning corpses still moving people crushed them against the wall. Skeletons were burnt. Started running here and identify their, pull. Live many more were wounded, but people died, there was no one to help. A pond in the Semenov there is, in general Germans staged dances. I originally wanted to crawl through the garden, I saw that the Germans made a hole there. Woman dropped her head back and some dancing with a broom around this place. It was terrifying. Where will not come - some women and children. My classmates - Fomicheva Ulyana Kasyanov Frosya lay in an embrace in the snow. And here beside disabled World War Demian grandfather, he was not one foot, on crutches, apparently said goodbye to his old lady, and they were shot in the arms and they tilt and stood as living in an embrace, saying goodbye. There were barns and each morning Grandpa was Kolesnikov, with a gray beard, he woke all songs very early. And on the day the war began mother says: "Something he now sings songs are unclear, such dreary ...". Then I saw him, he was with his grandmother on the street that lay up white beard, who was shot. The cellar was 30 people on the street and there threw a grenade and there half dead, half wounded. There was my aunt and three children, all of them wounded, killed grandmother feet. I helped them ... Over the two wars I have three generations of embossed. Grandfather died in the First World, grandmothers were - at one five children, the other - four. And in this war, and they have finished, and their children, and us - the grandchildren ... In the family we had six people. I was left alone. Ran across the front line, the wounded, wanted to find his father, who held on the fourth day of the war. But I was looking at the Voronezh front, and he was on the Central, near Moscow. He lived for another two months, I wanted to report on these events. But it was not necessary. He died rather died of his wounds on Zaitseva hill where now a memorial complex. I drove back those bullets that I pulled out a few years later from the bodies of their parents ... In this place since the early days came and everything like that ... all those names all we were doing there, went to Kiev several times. And then it all somehow, you know ... forget abandoned, collapsed union, nobody needs ... About the tragedy of this is known in Italy, in France, I have a newspaper, printed. We investigated the case together with the Italian comrades, members of parliament - and Giuseppe Giuseppe Byankani Brunotti who fought in the brigade. Garibaldi. And here we are on the trail went here this criminal who was in Dachau sentenced to death. Paper. And, therefore, all materials collected about this tragedy ... Here they are, see? (Showing pictures). That's who shot. Here's a look. This here was awarded personally here for these shootings, we had, Paper .... That division commander "Adolf Hitler" (Signed: Commander Panzer Division "Adolf Hitler" SS-Obergruppenführer Josef Dietrich). And this one, who led the operation here, here this Paper. For these acts of destruction, they have been in the reports as "clearing near Kharkov" Hitler personally awarded him the highest award of Germany - Knight's Cross with oak wreath. Two villages were destroyed. According to the data was in the beginning, it was a half thousand, because there were many strangers - from Kharkov, from Merefa. Went to the village and friends ... And they all died here. All burnt rarely left. In Semenovka - there generally wasteland. Now there is, then nothing - all burned. All of this street, there remained only a small hut, and the second one. And that's where the headquarters was a German left. You know, the picture was terrible. Stench, everything burns, everything collapses, people groan. People are burned alive, burned and livestock. And here Kasyanovy, 15 person family here all shot and thrown on top of the dog and cat. And theirs hostess grandmother, she's lying, even barefoot. I lost my mother, two sisters, one - 12 years, which was thrown into the well, and the four brothers (crying). I last year, six years was not, and then I'm here come, there is nothing you have not been. I was in the month of October. I walked the entire village, all overgrown with weeds. People in other places somehow know about our events. And you know, the scale of these atrocities like these two villages can not be compared, if taken together compare Chatyn, Arador French, Czech Lidice Baves Italian, where as in the church, the same divisions to shoot. Krasuha in Russia. All together, cruelty and scale are not comparable with what happened here. And burned children, live repulsed, and all day on the snow .. as I walked, some are killed as living children - seven years .. It's fear. ... my first 60 years have passed, I've a war veteran, then went ... and then engaged, the entire area cleared, and our group. I will say that for all the time I first saw that this is the case once brightened and took such a massive scale. From this we must begin, otherwise nothing will happen. If we are home to people without bringing that was what our roots, our parents, sweat and blood soaked the earth and this - forget! The same division Taranovka half burned, and then Merefa in March 1943 the same street Trinklera they seized the hospital 69th Army, which had no time to evacuate, 720 soldiers and officers were shot. And on the street Zmievskoy family was there, I know in those cases, which were the first trial in Kharkov, also shot this family division, and there is a small three-year Andriusha cut into pieces and thrown on a hot stove. And in Italy the same Paper led only worship was over, began to disperse, they were driven back and shot. A priest and a ... were alive, then they poured petrol and also threw a huge bonfire. And in Milan, they also shot 120. And around Punio province, where the Italians refused to fight on their side, they're looking around orders. And then this division moved to France, then - in Belgium. And there captured in wic 144 American and British soldiers. Dressed in a form in the Ardennes done rustle. This same division. I tried many times in the 80 years to get into West Germany, the Nazis and the gathering was led by Walter Kluger, who was here. I tried to get in there among journalists view. And he led esesovskimi formations, here after the war. And they say, you know, the kind of person he is a family man is good, he loves children, a daughter .... I say - that our parents did not love children? Why are you not allowed, to go .. And there we were refused. And when we collected material with the Italians, the material was ready, this Paper was released, he was also the death penalty. Otto Skorzeny - Hitler's favorite already begun to cooperate with the Americans, he said that if you punish Paper will retaliate. And they were released - and Kluger is the sixties, and the division commander and his executioners and another 23 who were sentenced for life. So he worked on sales of cars in Stuttgart. Italians learned material but not enough, they asked the Soviet Union because they were involved here, who can eat. And I would send stuff and we have prepared it. And it had to be over them court, the prosecutor called him and said, Behold material. He fled to France, was allegedly burned his possessions and he supposedly died. But could not find him - the SS hid as all hid ... "
see details here : http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=206251
The following is translated automatically, you can visit the webpage here:
http://forum.chuguev.net//index.php?act ... 7ce02bb443
"This text - a verbatim transcript of the story from a resident. May Day Efremovka region Kharkov region. In February 1943, the 3rd Battalion pantsergrenadersky SS Division Leibstandarte "Adolf Hitler" under the command of SS-Obergruppenführer Joachim Peiper arranged in villages and Semenivka Efremovka local "Khatyn". I had an interview with one of the few survivors, and only dozhivshim to the present day people. The text of the interview - or rather, I decided to actually monologue verbatim play and expose to public inspection. I think that would be helpful. "... Reasons itself was not. February 12, 1943, we have lived on this street, and here came our advanced parts. Discontinuous, well, kind of intelligence, on horseback. They were in the village. church here and was just a few people, they traveled on horseback and fired from an aircraft. Look - one fell and killed our soldiers lying near the church. And then say: our go. Well, we went out, go, say, the Red Army, there can our fathers were. We ran out into the street, I see - is the first tank, and then APCs, and look - in German caps. And just one tank near the church and became like that they're around, but they are armored vehicles in our yard pozagonyali ... Well, then , then what happened. retreating soldiers and shots were fired and wounded two officers German. And in this headquarters, to the side, there Thekla grandmother lived, she was interrogated. Brought to bed put one seriously wounded, and the second floor. And hence, where, they say, men? They believed that the guerrillas. But we have not been here guerrillas. She tried to say that it is not under the guerrillas fired at the church, and here are several of them left and they fired. Wanted to say that it is the soldiers. But it hit his head on the stove and not listen. One man questioned too, and then taken out into the yard and shot and scored on the spot and made two stakes restroom on it. And then, right there translator told her I had written it all from those years that will kill people ... here ... and then saw that I was moved, saying, "Get on your knees." But I could not be. Then he stood in the midst of the road, there is always the corpses were lying. On your knees became covered in blood. Felt burned face and two more wounded. And I fell, the tank was above me, caught between the tracks. They drove on. There was a church in Semenovka. One grandmother was looking injured son in the cellar. They saw the old woman tied to the shutters and began as a target to shoot. And it was not until late in the evening, everything was burning, valilos, cattle bellowed, people moaning, screaming - it was awful. And in the morning I got out, the snow melted beneath me, I thought that the Germans were talking, it turned out that these people were screaming unconscious. Germans were not. I went to the neighbors and the people there 12 people were shot and one woman cooks, Aunt Motia, and she crawls on his chest a little kid burst skin, eyes emerged round ... And so, on every street, near each hut were corpses everywhere .... , tanks crushed them. Spiridonovna old woman Anna crept out of the burning house, crawling over the bodies and could not. I helped her to crawl. Sons sought to touch. One, too, burned alive, doused with gasoline and the second ... Walked into Efremovka, the terms of some corpses were scary looking. As fresh flowers ... (crying). Look - the church, the smoke goes. There were burning corpses still moving people crushed them against the wall. Skeletons were burnt. Started running here and identify their, pull. Live many more were wounded, but people died, there was no one to help. A pond in the Semenov there is, in general Germans staged dances. I originally wanted to crawl through the garden, I saw that the Germans made a hole there. Woman dropped her head back and some dancing with a broom around this place. It was terrifying. Where will not come - some women and children. My classmates - Fomicheva Ulyana Kasyanov Frosya lay in an embrace in the snow. And here beside disabled World War Demian grandfather, he was not one foot, on crutches, apparently said goodbye to his old lady, and they were shot in the arms and they tilt and stood as living in an embrace, saying goodbye. There were barns and each morning Grandpa was Kolesnikov, with a gray beard, he woke all songs very early. And on the day the war began mother says: "Something he now sings songs are unclear, such dreary ...". Then I saw him, he was with his grandmother on the street that lay up white beard, who was shot. The cellar was 30 people on the street and there threw a grenade and there half dead, half wounded. There was my aunt and three children, all of them wounded, killed grandmother feet. I helped them ... Over the two wars I have three generations of embossed. Grandfather died in the First World, grandmothers were - at one five children, the other - four. And in this war, and they have finished, and their children, and us - the grandchildren ... In the family we had six people. I was left alone. Ran across the front line, the wounded, wanted to find his father, who held on the fourth day of the war. But I was looking at the Voronezh front, and he was on the Central, near Moscow. He lived for another two months, I wanted to report on these events. But it was not necessary. He died rather died of his wounds on Zaitseva hill where now a memorial complex. I drove back those bullets that I pulled out a few years later from the bodies of their parents ... In this place since the early days came and everything like that ... all those names all we were doing there, went to Kiev several times. And then it all somehow, you know ... forget abandoned, collapsed union, nobody needs ... About the tragedy of this is known in Italy, in France, I have a newspaper, printed. We investigated the case together with the Italian comrades, members of parliament - and Giuseppe Giuseppe Byankani Brunotti who fought in the brigade. Garibaldi. And here we are on the trail went here this criminal who was in Dachau sentenced to death. Paper. And, therefore, all materials collected about this tragedy ... Here they are, see? (Showing pictures). That's who shot. Here's a look. This here was awarded personally here for these shootings, we had, Paper .... That division commander "Adolf Hitler" (Signed: Commander Panzer Division "Adolf Hitler" SS-Obergruppenführer Josef Dietrich). And this one, who led the operation here, here this Paper. For these acts of destruction, they have been in the reports as "clearing near Kharkov" Hitler personally awarded him the highest award of Germany - Knight's Cross with oak wreath. Two villages were destroyed. According to the data was in the beginning, it was a half thousand, because there were many strangers - from Kharkov, from Merefa. Went to the village and friends ... And they all died here. All burnt rarely left. In Semenovka - there generally wasteland. Now there is, then nothing - all burned. All of this street, there remained only a small hut, and the second one. And that's where the headquarters was a German left. You know, the picture was terrible. Stench, everything burns, everything collapses, people groan. People are burned alive, burned and livestock. And here Kasyanovy, 15 person family here all shot and thrown on top of the dog and cat. And theirs hostess grandmother, she's lying, even barefoot. I lost my mother, two sisters, one - 12 years, which was thrown into the well, and the four brothers (crying). I last year, six years was not, and then I'm here come, there is nothing you have not been. I was in the month of October. I walked the entire village, all overgrown with weeds. People in other places somehow know about our events. And you know, the scale of these atrocities like these two villages can not be compared, if taken together compare Chatyn, Arador French, Czech Lidice Baves Italian, where as in the church, the same divisions to shoot. Krasuha in Russia. All together, cruelty and scale are not comparable with what happened here. And burned children, live repulsed, and all day on the snow .. as I walked, some are killed as living children - seven years .. It's fear. ... my first 60 years have passed, I've a war veteran, then went ... and then engaged, the entire area cleared, and our group. I will say that for all the time I first saw that this is the case once brightened and took such a massive scale. From this we must begin, otherwise nothing will happen. If we are home to people without bringing that was what our roots, our parents, sweat and blood soaked the earth and this - forget! The same division Taranovka half burned, and then Merefa in March 1943 the same street Trinklera they seized the hospital 69th Army, which had no time to evacuate, 720 soldiers and officers were shot. And on the street Zmievskoy family was there, I know in those cases, which were the first trial in Kharkov, also shot this family division, and there is a small three-year Andriusha cut into pieces and thrown on a hot stove. And in Italy the same Paper led only worship was over, began to disperse, they were driven back and shot. A priest and a ... were alive, then they poured petrol and also threw a huge bonfire. And in Milan, they also shot 120. And around Punio province, where the Italians refused to fight on their side, they're looking around orders. And then this division moved to France, then - in Belgium. And there captured in wic 144 American and British soldiers. Dressed in a form in the Ardennes done rustle. This same division. I tried many times in the 80 years to get into West Germany, the Nazis and the gathering was led by Walter Kluger, who was here. I tried to get in there among journalists view. And he led esesovskimi formations, here after the war. And they say, you know, the kind of person he is a family man is good, he loves children, a daughter .... I say - that our parents did not love children? Why are you not allowed, to go .. And there we were refused. And when we collected material with the Italians, the material was ready, this Paper was released, he was also the death penalty. Otto Skorzeny - Hitler's favorite already begun to cooperate with the Americans, he said that if you punish Paper will retaliate. And they were released - and Kluger is the sixties, and the division commander and his executioners and another 23 who were sentenced for life. So he worked on sales of cars in Stuttgart. Italians learned material but not enough, they asked the Soviet Union because they were involved here, who can eat. And I would send stuff and we have prepared it. And it had to be over them court, the prosecutor called him and said, Behold material. He fled to France, was allegedly burned his possessions and he supposedly died. But could not find him - the SS hid as all hid ... "
-
krichter33
- Member
- Posts: 843
- Joined: 22 Mar 2003, 12:37
- Location: U.S.A.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Interesting. As I posted on the other thread, I wonder if Peiper's post war reputation was more to blame for him being identified as being the culprit, though most evidence points to Kurt Meyer.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
I think Peipers reputation and that of his battalion fitted the description of this 'action'. To muddy the waters further, Peiper was also in a village called 'Jeremejewka' on February 20th 1943, this had led to confusion with some who feel these two villages are the same. They are however different and I think we have proved conclusively here that Kurt Meyer was in Jefremowka on the day this atrocity occurred. This personal accusation was made against KM by a colleague Jacob Hanreich whose testimony is in this thread, it appears that Hanreich's evidence of the destruction of three named villages (as posted here also) has morphed into a 'fact' in many publications that Peiper was responsible for all three. I am endeavouring at the moment to check for evidence now against Peiper for the other two named villages on the thread cited above. If anyone has information pertinent to that investigation, please post there.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Church and memorial commemorating the events as discussed on this thread in Jefremowka/ Єфремівка and Seminivka in February 1943.
- http://pomni.ucoz.ru/
- memorial2 jefremowka.jpg (44.65 KiB) Viewed 1642 times
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
In Danny Parker's book 'Fatal Crossroads' there is evidence from a Walter Fransee of the 9th Pioneer Btln, LSAH, whom Parker quotes as follows:
'He recounted one particular vividly disturbing memory when at the end of February his unit ruthlessly burned to the ground a Russian village near Kharkov - supposedly harbouring partisans: 'all inhabitants of the village were shot, man, woman or child' (page129)
Parker cites this from: ‘Kriegsverbrechen im Osten’ (War crimes in the East) Statement of Walter Fransee. 1st Platoon 9th Pz. Pi Btln. George Washington University, Gelman Library, William Perl Papers. Box 6 Folder 51.
Walter Fransee served with Erich Rumpf, also of the 9th Pioneer Btln who stood as one of the accused for the ‘Malmedy Massacre’ during the Battle of the Bulge. Fransee is not on the list of defendants for Malmedy, but he obviously gave details of suspected war crimes by the LSAH while on the Eastern Front to which he appears to have been a witness to.
Frustratingly Parker does not name the village or the perpetrator, but I strongly suspect this is Jefremowka as I believe elements of the 9th Pioneer Btln were with the Recon Btln at that time. If anyone has access to this testimony, please post the full details and confirm if Kurt Meyer is named in this piece. Obviously if he is named, this would be the first testimony we have from someone who didn’t just ‘hear’ the story but actually admits to being there at the time.
'He recounted one particular vividly disturbing memory when at the end of February his unit ruthlessly burned to the ground a Russian village near Kharkov - supposedly harbouring partisans: 'all inhabitants of the village were shot, man, woman or child' (page129)
Parker cites this from: ‘Kriegsverbrechen im Osten’ (War crimes in the East) Statement of Walter Fransee. 1st Platoon 9th Pz. Pi Btln. George Washington University, Gelman Library, William Perl Papers. Box 6 Folder 51.
Walter Fransee served with Erich Rumpf, also of the 9th Pioneer Btln who stood as one of the accused for the ‘Malmedy Massacre’ during the Battle of the Bulge. Fransee is not on the list of defendants for Malmedy, but he obviously gave details of suspected war crimes by the LSAH while on the Eastern Front to which he appears to have been a witness to.
Frustratingly Parker does not name the village or the perpetrator, but I strongly suspect this is Jefremowka as I believe elements of the 9th Pioneer Btln were with the Recon Btln at that time. If anyone has access to this testimony, please post the full details and confirm if Kurt Meyer is named in this piece. Obviously if he is named, this would be the first testimony we have from someone who didn’t just ‘hear’ the story but actually admits to being there at the time.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
I have located the transcript of Walter Fransee/ 9th Pioneer Btln, LSAH, cited in 'Fatal Crossroads' by D.Parker as posted above.
'He recounted one particular vividly disturbing memory when at the end of February his unit ruthlessly burned to the ground a Russian village near Kharkov - supposedly harbouring partisans: 'all inhabitants of the village were shot, man, woman or child' (page129) Source: ‘Kriegsverbrechen im Osten’ G.W.U. Gelman Library, William Perl Papers. Box 6 Folder 51.
The following is the complete transcript of his testimony:
"At the end of February 1943 a village near Charkow was burned down because of Partisans on order of Stubaf. Panzermeier. All inhabitants of the village were shot being man, woman or child. Rttf. Schmidt at that point Funker (radio opp.) of Kp. Chef Hstf. Nueske told us, when we arrived with the Tross, that Rttf. Vorst had beaten the children with an iron bar".
My suspections that this referred to Jefremowka is confirmed by the man named as the commander who issued the order for the killing and destrucion of the village... Kurt Meyer aka 'Panzermeier', the motive cited here as 'Partisan activity'. It appears from Fransee's testimony that he arrived after the killing with the 'Tross', this is not a term I am familiar with, but from a cursory internet search it seems that this were a detail that followed the fighting units. If anyone is familiar with the workings of the LSAH 'Tross', it would be interesting to get some further insights into the workings of this unit.
(With thanks to Forum members who helped decipher and translate the hand written testimony)
'He recounted one particular vividly disturbing memory when at the end of February his unit ruthlessly burned to the ground a Russian village near Kharkov - supposedly harbouring partisans: 'all inhabitants of the village were shot, man, woman or child' (page129) Source: ‘Kriegsverbrechen im Osten’ G.W.U. Gelman Library, William Perl Papers. Box 6 Folder 51.
The following is the complete transcript of his testimony:
"At the end of February 1943 a village near Charkow was burned down because of Partisans on order of Stubaf. Panzermeier. All inhabitants of the village were shot being man, woman or child. Rttf. Schmidt at that point Funker (radio opp.) of Kp. Chef Hstf. Nueske told us, when we arrived with the Tross, that Rttf. Vorst had beaten the children with an iron bar".
My suspections that this referred to Jefremowka is confirmed by the man named as the commander who issued the order for the killing and destrucion of the village... Kurt Meyer aka 'Panzermeier', the motive cited here as 'Partisan activity'. It appears from Fransee's testimony that he arrived after the killing with the 'Tross', this is not a term I am familiar with, but from a cursory internet search it seems that this were a detail that followed the fighting units. If anyone is familiar with the workings of the LSAH 'Tross', it would be interesting to get some further insights into the workings of this unit.
(With thanks to Forum members who helped decipher and translate the hand written testimony)
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Hi "Seaburn", the "Troß" is the German word for the supply column. It included the ammo, fuel, rations, field kitchen, etc.
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Thank you 'Harro'...would you or anyone know if each unit have their 'own' "Troß" or could Walter Fransee have supplied any unit in that area at that time ?
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
seaburn wrote:[...] that Rttf. Vorst had beaten the children with an iron bar".
[...]
My translation:dass der Rottenführer Vorst mit einer Eisenstange die Kinder erschlagen haben soll.
" that there were rumors that Rttf. Vorst had childrens with an iron bar battered to death".
I assume the underlined terms as important. It´s a difference if one beat childrens or if one kill them due the beating.
Regards
Re: Meyer and war crimes in Modlin and Kharkow?
Thanks 'History1' it is indeed important to get the 'true' meaning of the testimony and the fate of the children of Jefremowka. In most of the testimonies uncovered so far, each of the witnesses have made a point of relaying that no man, woman or child was spared the vengeful retribution on February 17th 1943. Thankfully some survived to bear witness, but unfortunately they never saw justice being served for this atrocity.