Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#61

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Aug 2009, 08:02

michael you wrote
That information demonstrates conclusively that there can have been no ORDER given to German soldiers to commit rape, contrary to what Emil claims,
no what it does prove as i sourced is Göring denying giving or stating rape...conclusively...HARDLY...his trying to save face or his neck...yes conclusively, factually NO

But at least we have removed the doubt that the "Wehrmacht did indeed RAPE in Russia"

but what is too bad is had these soldiers had been following orders and from the description of this law, where not nor could not be found guilt and tried by another nor be punished
Violations of rules regarding warfare are
war crimes only when committed~ without an order
of the belligerent Government concerned. If
members of the armed forces commit violations
by order of their Government, they are not war
criminals and cannot be punished by the enemy;
the l a t t e r can, however, resort to reprisals.
In case members of forces commit violations
ordered by their commanders, the members may
not be punished, for the commanders are alone
responsible, and the l a t t e r may, therefore, be
punished as war criminals on their capture by
the enemy.25
sourced from
5 Y .Dinstein, supra at 124-12 ; L. Oppenheim, International
LAW A Treatise, vol. 11, 26 2 -265 (1st ed., 1906)
from sourcehttp://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/ ... orders.pdf
In other words Göring, whom denied the order could have and would have been held responsible, as it was by him denying said order, acts of rape could not be found innocent on those whom did so, and thus Göring bailing on them, left there actions as illegal and any reprisals legal which where dealt to them...all in all maybe better Göring denied this as only he would have been held accountable and thus numerous Wehrmacht soldiers if indeed ordered would have been set scott free....guess it worked better as more soldiers could be held accountable instead of a single Nazi :wink:

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#62

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 08 Aug 2009, 10:13

The literature, that I read on the subject so far, does not lead me to believe, that the order by Göring (or lack there of )that is being discussed, had effect if any on the number of sexual assaults committed on EF. That, of course, can also mean, that my knowledge is lacking. Snyder refers to German scholars Maiwald and Mischler who are favoring the theory that “sexual debasement” was a policy pursued by Germans – although they cite Keitel rather than Göring. Snyder does not agree with them however:
In support of this position, the authors cite Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel's demand that all means should be employed in the east, "even against women and children." Maiwald and Mischler, however, do not document a single specific order instructing the troops to commit rape as part of the military strategy.' In fact, by calling the reader's attention to the Wehrmacht's extensive efforts to prevent sexually transmit¬ted diseases among the troops, the authors actually undermine their thesis.' In the First World War, "carnal flu" incapacitated hundreds of thousands of German soldiers. The Wehrmacht was determined to prevent any repetition. During the Second World War, it oper¬ated an extensive system of closely regulated and medically super¬vised brothels in order to reduce the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.° The Wehrmacht also introduced severe punishments for soldiers careless enough to contract a sexually transmitted disease." A strategy of "sexual debasement" in the east - that is, a strategy of sexual assaults as a means of repression—would have completely sabotaged these efforts.
Scholars also have suggested that the military judicial authorities did not perceive sexual assaults against Slavic women as "moral of¬fenses" and therefore pursued such crimes as "fraternization," "racial offenses," or even "collaboration with partisans."13 In the case files, however, it appears that the authorities did not equivocate and indeed classified sexual offenses perpetrated against Slavic women as sexual assaults. Exceptions to this rule occurred in the east, but many courts also chose to call sexual assaults against German women something other than what they were—for example, "libelous behavior."
The Central Documentation Agency's Eastern Collection contains a considerable number of case files for processes against soldiers who committed sexual assaults against inhabitants of the eastern occupied areas. However, the case files do not resolve the controversy surround¬ing the consequences of the Barbarossa Jurisdiction Decree." Instead, they only raise more questions. On the one hand, approximately 4o percent of the individuals convicted for rape crimes in the Eastern Collection case file sample had assaulted eastern inhabitants. Perhaps more importantly, the case files examined for this study contain only one specific reference to the Barbarossa Jurisdiction Decree." At first glance, this seems to suggest that the military judicial authorities ig¬nored the Jurisdiction Decree to a large extent.

On the other hand, the Eastern Collection fell into Soviet hands at war's end. Therefore, the case files in the Eastern Collection came from units operating in the east. One might expect that the collection would contain a higher number of case files for crimes committed against eastern inhabitants if indeed the military judicial authorities pursued them on a regular basis.
Another possibility should also be considered. The prewar provi¬sions required the military judicial authorities to prosecute sexual as¬saults, even if the victims had not filed complaints. In October 1940 the provisions were changed. Henceforth, a complaint had to he lodged before the military judicial authorities could initiate legal action." Soviet civilians might have chosen not to report crimes committed against them by German soldiers. In fact, experts estimate that, even in ideal victim-friendly (i.e., civilian peacetime) environments, the majority of rape crimes go unreported.18 It would not be surprising then if the war's nature in the east caused local indigenous personnel to perceive any attempt to obtain justice as futile. Or, by extension, Soviet civilians might have considered any contact with the occupa¬tion authorities to be dangerous and therefore might have chosen not to report crimes in general and sexual assaults in particular.
The case files nevertheless establish that the military judicial author¬ities did prosecute soldiers for sexual assault, even if the frequency of prosecution cannot be established." How many sexual assaults the authorities ignored (or how many assaults civilians chose not to re¬port) must remain a matter of speculation.
The case files also do not support Maiwald and Mischler's claim that the Wehrmacht promoted sexual assaults in the east through the "most extreme restraint" in prosecution. Contrary to the authors' conclusions, the case files also reveal that when the military judicial authorities chose to prosecute soldiers for assaulting eastern inhabit¬ants, the courts did not impose exceptionally light punishments. The punishments were well within the spectrum of severity seen for as¬saults committed against west Europeans.

I think here Snyder has lost sight of the forest for the trees (not sure if this Russian idiom makes a lot of sense to English speakers -basically lost sight of the larger picture).
Barbarossa decree stated that
2. In judging such deeds it is to be considered in any proceedings that the collapse in the year 1918, the later period of suffering of the German people, and the battle against National Socialism with the movement’s countless sacrifices of blood are incontestably to be attributed to Bolshevik influence, and that no German has forgotten that.
3. The chairman of the court must therefore examine whether a disciplinary reprimand is appropriate or whether it is necessary to institute judicial proceedings. The chairman only orders court-martial proceedings for acts against native inhabitants, when the maintenance of discipline or the protection of the troops demands it. That applies, for example, in the case of serious acts that result from the loss of sexual restraint, are derived from a criminal disposition, or are a sign that the troops are threatening to run wild. Criminal acts, by which lodgings or supplies or other plunder are senselessly destroyed to the detriment of our own troops, are not on the whole to be judged more leniently.

The cases that he analyzed actually seem to be very well in-line with these guidelines. As he himself points out - the damage to fighting power of German Army via erosion of discipline was the primary cause for prosecution and sentencing.
To illustrate - this is a quote from The German Army and Genocide: Crimes Against War Prisoners, Jews, and other Civilians in the East, 1939-1944
IN IIb (Personal Office fro Enlisted Men] the first reports are going around about incidents involving the troops: A Jew was “separated” from his fur coat; while the Russian mayor was in the “office” soldiers emptied out his apartment; a Russian woman was locked in a cellar and raped by 6! Soldiers one after another

We turned over the city’s Military Administration Headquarter to the 57th Infantry Division. That will save us a lot of work. There were loads of reports coming in each day. Looting of the civilian population by soldiers, removal of food supplies, illegal confiscation of object, rape of women. The commanding General ordered that these incidents are not to be subject to prosecution, but rather to be dealt with as disciplinary cases by the Second General Staff Officer
The quote refers to the events that ensued after capture of Khrakov . I tried to find out – in vain – what kind of action could Second General Staff Officer undertake. Whatever they are ,they probably would not have gone through regular judicial channels and probably would not end up in the Eastern Collection.


michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#63

Post by michael mills » 08 Aug 2009, 13:28

In any case. an "order" to commit rape is a contradiction in terms. Men can be permitted to commit rape, they can be given immunity from prosecution for committing acts of rape, but they cannot be ordered to. The desire to rape must come from within themselves.

If men could be rendered capable of carrying out sexual acts simply by the recipt of a verbal or written order to do so, such products as viagra would be superfluous.

On a more serious note, it is clear that some members of the German armed forces committed rape wherever they were stationed. In that respect the German armed forces were no different from those of other states, some members of whom committed rape. When the crime of rape was comitted, it was due to the will of the individual perpetrator, and contrary to the normal duties of the members of armed forces.

It is of course possible for members of armed forces to be incited to commit rape by official representatives of their government, for example in written propaganda material issued to them, or through official broadcasts. One documented example of such official incitement is provided by the propaganda material issued to Red Army soldiers by Erenburg early in 1945, which explicitly encouraged those soldiers to "degrade" German women in order to break their "racial pride". That propaganda material was disseminated on a wide scale, to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers, in the form of leaflets and radio broadcasts.

I do not know of any similar official propaganda of incitement to degrade women having been issued to members of the German armed forces, certainly not on such a scale. If anyone has hard evidence of such incitement, I would be pleased to see it.

User avatar
Oleg Grigoryev
Member
Posts: 5051
Joined: 12 Mar 2002, 21:06
Location: Russia

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#64

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 08 Aug 2009, 19:01

It is of course possible for members of armed forces to be incited to commit rape by official representatives of their government, for example in written propaganda material issued to them, or through official broadcasts. One documented example of such official incitement is provided by the propaganda material issued to Red Army soldiers by Erenburg early in 1945, which explicitly encouraged those soldiers to "degrade" German women in order to break their "racial pride". That propaganda material was disseminated on a wide scale, to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers, in the form of leaflets and radio broadcasts.
Can you point me to this material ? I could not find anything of the kind.
"Yet while Ehrenburg never shrank from the most bloodthirsty harangues, the most notorious statement, which is still attributed to him by western historians, was a Nazi invention. He is accused of having urged Red Army soldiers to take German women as their "lawful booty" and to "break their racial pride."
Anthony Beevor, The Fall of Berlin 1945

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#65

Post by David Thompson » 08 Aug 2009, 19:23

Michael Mills wrote:
It is of course possible for members of armed forces to be incited to commit rape by official representatives of their government, for example in written propaganda material issued to them, or through official broadcasts. One documented example of such official incitement is provided by the propaganda material issued to Red Army soldiers by Erenburg early in 1945, which explicitly encouraged those soldiers to "degrade" German women in order to break their "racial pride". That propaganda material was disseminated on a wide scale, to hundreds of thousands of Soviet soldiers, in the form of leaflets and radio broadcasts.

I do not know of any similar official propaganda of incitement to degrade women having been issued to members of the German armed forces, certainly not on such a scale. If anyone has hard evidence of such incitement, I would be pleased to see it.
to which Oleg Grigoryev replied:
Can you point me to this material ? I could not find anything of the kind.
Let's stay on topic -- Wehrmacht rapes in Russia. We have several open threads here discussing Mr. Ehrenburg's broadcasts and broadsides at:

Ehrenburg
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23999
A Soviet Journalist who encouraged rape of German women
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=21594
The crimes of the Red Army in eastern Germany are bogus?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80773
Red Army Killing and Rape Crimes on German Soil
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17654

Kanadon
Banned
Posts: 153
Joined: 16 Oct 2008, 02:49

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#66

Post by Kanadon » 08 Aug 2009, 19:32

Can you point me to this material ? I could not find anything of the kind.
He will point you to propagantistic translation, with a lot of made up words (interesting compilation located here: http://labas.livejournal.com/706510.html). In actuality, Erenburg never made any mention of raping women or committing any attrocities against them. His "hateful" articles were published during the Stalingrad siege, as far as I know, to enrage the soldiers. Among these "hateful" articles he also wrote ones that promoted justice (http://militera.lib.ru/docs/press/1942/02.html).

P.S. Sorry, I didn't see your post, David.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#67

Post by David Thompson » 08 Aug 2009, 22:30

The discussion on Michael Mills' unsourced Ehrenburg claim has moved to the appropriate thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1361621

If Mr. Mills wants to take up the challenge, or any poster wants to comment, please post to the Ehrenburg thread at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23999

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#68

Post by David Thompson » 08 Aug 2009, 23:01

A post by bf109 emil on the Ehrenburg discussion was moved to the Ehrenburg thread.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#69

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Aug 2009, 23:06

David Thompson wrote:A post by bf109 emil on the Ehrenburg discussion was moved to the Ehrenburg thread.
Thank You and sorry

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#70

Post by michael mills » 09 Aug 2009, 05:01

The crucial issue is whether any propaganda was issued to German soldiers by the German Government inciting them to rape women in the occupied Soviet territories. I personally do not know of any.

I note the point made by Oleg Grigoryev that some Western historians do accept that agents of the Soviet Government did incite Red Army soldiers to rape German women. Are there any historians who believe that there was similar incitement issued to German soldiers to rape? Were there any claims by the Soviet Government that the German Government had incited its soldiers to rape Soviet women?

I know that there were stories circulating that captured Soviet children were drained of their blood to provide transfusions to wounded German soldiers. I do not know if that was official Soviet propaganda.

It seems to me that this thread addresses two issues:

1. Whether individual German soldiers committed the crime of rape in occupied Soviet territory; and

2. Whether the German Government deliberately encouraged or incited its soldiers to commit that crime, as a form of "punishment".

With regard to the latter issue, the claim that commanders of armed forces engaged in conflict do incite their men to commit sexual assaults on women belonging to the enemy population as a way of attacking and disrupting that population has become quite topical in recent years, particularly in regard to the ethnic conflict in the former Yugoslavia. Perhaps the recent research into that claim could throw some light on the issue of whether the same sort of incitement occurred in earlier conflicts, for example during the German invasion of the Soviet Union, or during the immediately following Soviet invasion of Germany.

It could be that all claims of sexual assault on women as a "weapon of war" deliberately promoted by army commanders are false or grossly exaggerated, whether in the case of Germans, Soviets, or Serbs.

User avatar
bf109 emil
Member
Posts: 3627
Joined: 25 Mar 2008, 22:20
Location: Youngstown Alberta Canada

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#71

Post by bf109 emil » 09 Aug 2009, 05:43

Michael you wrote
It could be that all claims of sexual assault on women as a "weapon of war" deliberately promoted by army commanders are false or grossly exaggerated, whether in the case of Germans, Soviets, or Serbs.
true...likewise i think these instances or happenings although maybe frowned upon where often termed or as saying goes "Turned a blind eye" although probably not condoned on either side, because of the hatred shown and known between Germany and Soviet Union the chances of a superior trying and convicting there own men would have been rare if indeed happened at all.

As for the extremity of this IMHO i think it pales in comparison to Japan and the taking of Korean women and deemed comfort women

snpol
Member
Posts: 245
Joined: 22 Aug 2017, 14:35
Location: Moscow

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#72

Post by snpol » 30 Jun 2018, 18:45

michael mills wrote:It seems to me that this thread addresses two issues:

1. Whether individual German soldiers committed the crime of rape in occupied Soviet territory; and

2. Whether the German Government deliberately encouraged or incited its soldiers to commit that crime, as a form of "punishment".
I would like to add another point
1.5. Whether the German Government didn't care to prevent and to punish rapes in the occupied Soviet territory.
In my opinion
1. Hardly any serious historian would deny that the rapes did happen.
2. Technically military brothels with forced prostitution that German government established in the occupied Soviet territory were places of repeated rapes and it was deliberately encouraged by German government.
Answer please a question: What countries did establish military brothels wth forced prostitution during WW2?

Returning to the (new) point 1.5 I would like to recall infamous order issued by field marshall Kluge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Günther_von_Kluge
On 29 June Kluge ordered that, "Women in uniform are to be shot".
Do you think that if Soviet servicewomen were raped before the execution then in this case German soldiers would be severely punished?
michael mills wrote:It could be that all claims of sexual assault on women as a "weapon of war" deliberately promoted by army commanders are false or grossly exaggerated, whether in the case of Germans, Soviets, or Serbs.
Of course you are free to put the equal sign between German and Soviet war crimes but I'm unable to recall similar order issued by Soviet commanders or brothels with forced prostitution on the German soil established by Soviet government.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#73

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Jun 2018, 21:41

michael mills wrote:The crucial issue is whether any propaganda was issued to German soldiers by the German Government inciting them to rape women in the occupied Soviet territories. I personally do not know of any.
You wd not find any. You wd find many ordering german soldiers not to have sexual relations with slavic people like russian people.
But, rape by Germans in Russia was common. It is a well-known fact. No need to argue.
Like for the rape of jewish women, german soldiers were not punished for that... at the best the one who wd be punished wd have been the victim, the woman, the russian, the jew... not the german soldier.
Why Hitler would care about the russian people ? he wanted them to die... he didnt care about the fate of russian women.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#74

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Jul 2018, 10:55

Hi David,

On the other hand, widespread, indiscriminate rape would represent a significant breakdown in German military discipline to the detriment of military efficiency, which the army command was unlikely to encourage, however lowly Hitler and his political cronies may have valued Soviet women.

There is an anecdote about the Slovaks which indicates that they, at least, were expecting widespread sexual contact with local women.

General Turanec, a strict Catholic and commander of the Rapid Division in 1941, asked his ministry of defence repeatedly for winter clothing. Instead he got 10,000 reusable, heavy duty, rubber condoms for his 8,000 men. He asked the ministry of defence what he was meant to do with them - sew them together to make winter raincoats?

There is also the story of the Spanish Blue Division having a sexual depressant (bromide?) put in their drinks by the Germans during training. In protest, they affixed military-issue, inflated condoms to the end of their rifles in place of bayonets during a formal parade.

Clearly everyone was expecting a considerable amount of extra-mural sex during the campaign and some official preparation was made for it on health grounds and, given the circumstances, much of it was unlikely to be genuinely consensual.

However, I would suggest that this does not amount to official clearance or encouragement to German troops to rape whomever they wanted, whenever and wherever they wanted. It was more likely an acceptance of the near inevitable when one deprives several million young men of their normal female companions and gives them power over a large number of other, vulnerable women.

Cheers,

Sid.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1235
Joined: 11 May 2016, 02:09
Location: Earth

Re: Is it verified that the Wehrmacht raped in russia?

#75

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 01 Jul 2018, 22:10

Many armies though history organized brothels in order to avoid troubles. In german such brothels are called "Soldatenbordell".

In France prostitutes members of such brothels were controled by the german autorities : they had to be aryans etc.

But what about in Russia ?
In the Soviet Union, women were kidnapped by German forces for prostitution as well; one report by International Military Tribunal writes: "in the city of Smolensk the German Command opened a brothel for officers in one of the hotels into which hundreds of women and girls were driven; they were mercilessly dragged down the street by their arms and hair."[6]
6 = War crimes against women: prosecution in international war crimes tribunals by Kelly Dawn Askin, page 72. ISBN 9041104860.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mi ... ern_Europe

If there were no brothels (or so few), i let you imagine the extent of savages rapes in USSR.

Before the launching of Barbarossa Hitler clearly stated that the war in the east would not be like others, there would be no rules... it would be a savage war.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”