Genocide in Volhynia

[Askold]

- Exactly, Ukrainians had no rights in what was the interwar Polish state, despite the fact that that Polish state included historical Ukrainian lands.

That's exaggeration. It is true that Ukrainian culture and people were in certain time period subject to heavy polonization attempts, but they did had rights. Afer all they were legitimate Ukrainian political parties with representation in Sejm, and Wasyl Mudry was vice-marshall of Sejm, they were also Ukrainian schools although limited.
I am not saying that Ukrainians were treated well in Poland, but that despite repressions it isn't correct to write that they had "no rights".

- This "certain period of polonization" includes:
- Revindication and burning Ukrainian churches in the 20's and 30's
- Pacification and war crimes against Ukrainian civil population in the 30's
- Colonisation

Yes, there was some Ukrainian representation in Polish parliament, but it did not have any voice, just like the head of Ukrainian Orthodox church when it tried to prevent the church burnings. So sum it up, I think Ukrainians in interwar Poland had no better rights then the Africanamericans in US.

[Okyzm]

Pacification and war crimes against Ukrainian civil population in the 30's

Don't war crimes happen in war ? Do you mean 1939 ?

I think Ukrainians in interwar Poland had no better rights then the Africanamericans in US.

Did African-Americans had political parties in American Senate like Ukrainians did in Polish Sejm ? Was an African-American a vice speaker in American Senate in 30s ?

Like I wrote-I don't deny that Ukrainians were discriminated in II Polish Republic or that polonization at certain times didn't happen, but I think that just like jola you are exaggerating.

Anyway, trust me-I wish Poland's past had nothing to do with the whole Kresy disaster, and Kresowiacy never existed dooming our nation to endless conflicts in the east over the "riches" of Polasie swamps.

[Slavomir]

- This "certain period of polonization" includes:
- Revindication and burning Ukrainian churches in the 20's and 30's
- Pacification and war crimes against Ukrainian civil population in the 30's
- Colonisation

Sounds very depressing when you judge them from our today's point of view. But when you compare them with contemporary practise, and the fate of Ukrainians in USSR, fate of Ukrainians in Czechoslovakia, treatment of Afro-Americans and Natives in the USA, the fate of natives in Australia, not to mention the way British, French, Italians treated population in their colonies it's not that unusual. Not proper from today's standards but not different from contemporary practise.

Moreover if you take into account Soviet-sponsored Ukrainian guerilla activity in early 20-ties, assassination attempts on Polish president, Polish C-in-C, two ministers (one successful), politicians (including head of BBWR) or guerilla attacks in 1930 (to disturb elections) one can find that there was action on both sides. Of course we can argue whether some measures where appropriate in scale.

I believe that you can stop talking about colonization as a oppressive measure when it was proved that it had been insignificant factor in the ethnic composition.

There was not really two factions in UPA, one wanting to kill poles and one wanting to befriend them. The UPA functioning in the region simply wanted to establish peace with the Polish partisans and it was rejected (I won't repeat them, but the whole dialogue about the peace process was already posted by me earlier). From reading many memuars, Ukrainians fighting both Nazis and the Soviets never actually wanted to open the thrid front with the Poles, however when Polish partisans began killing prominent Ukrainian citizens in the Generalgouvernment as early as 1941, then the hostilities began

Which shows the UPA in even worse light than I suggested. Even if the alleged actions were true (even if they were), even if that supposed rejections was true it does not justify the mass killing of innocent civilians.

Exactly, Ukrainians had no rights in what was the interwar Polish state, despite the fact that that Polish state included historical Ukrainian lands

First of all you should decide which territories you consider as historically Ukrainian. In one post you show map describing Ukraine (as a territory, not as a state) located on the Dnieper river, south east of Volhynia, east of Pokutia and south of Kiev, than you state that Poland had historical Ukrainian land (how does it compare to your map and the map of interwar Poland?), searching through the internet I read about Ukrainian Lublin, Przemyśl and Chełm... one can ask what will be next?

doubt it. From what I read there were always ethnic tensions on smaller or bigger scale. The peacefull co-existance of minorities is a common myth propagated by

Hardly to sustain. I'd rather believe in the accounts of the survivors from Volhynian massacres, who described Ukrainian neighbours warning Poles about incoming slaughter, hiding them, being killed by their kinsmen for such help etc. That is rather the proof for peaceful co-existence, isn't it?

[Okyzm]

Hardly to sustain. I'd rather believe in the accounts of the survivors from Volhynian massacres, who described Ukrainian neighbours warning Poles about incoming slaughter, hiding them, being killed by their kinsmen for such help etc. That is rather the proof for peaceful co-existence, isn't it?

Basing your knowledge on the accounts of Kresowiacy ? That's as reliable as basing your information about WW2 and Western Poland on the accounts of German expelled who wil tell you how relation with Poles were always "peacefull co-existance" when for no reason at all Poles attacked them in 1945.
Both groups are blinded by romantic and nationalistic attachment to other's people's land they ruled over. As a ruling and priviliaged class their perception is highly biased.

[jola]

Basing your knowledge on the accounts of Kresowiacy ?

You seem to have contempt for these Poles from Volhynia. You shouldn't; their accounts are very valuable:

Nevertheless, many of Ukrainians risked, and in some cases, lost their lives trying to shelter or warn Poles[57][61] - such activities were treated by the UPA as collaboration with enemy and severely punished.[62] In 2007, Polish Institute of National Rememberance (IPN) published a document "Kresowa Ksiega Sprawiedliwych 1939 - 1945. O Ukraincach ratujacych Polakow poddanych eksterminacji przez OUN i UPA" ("Eastern Borderland's Book of the Righteous. About Ukrainians saving Poles from extermination of OUN and UIA"). The author of the book, IPN's historian Romuald Niedzielko, documented 1341 cases in which Ukrainian civilians helped their Polish neighbors. For this, 384 Ukrainians were executed by the UIA.[63] According to the Volhynian delegation to the Polish government, by October 1943 the number of Polish casualties exceeded 15,000 people.[64] Timothy Snyder estimates that in summer and spring 1943 the UPA actions resulted in deaths of 40,000 Polish civilians.[33]

Coming back to the UPA death squads. Your sources showed 3,000 Germans killed in July, August, and September 1943, probably for UPA-North, South, and West.. Historians show 15,000 civilians killed by UPA-North in July 1943 alone. And you don't know anyone who calls UPA death squads? For UPA-West we have to look at genocide in East Galicia, but that's another topic.

[Okyzm]

You shouldn't; their accounts are very valuable:

They are as valuable as German accounts from Polish territorie-usefull in study of nationalism and attitude to colonised lands from the position of priviliaged ethnic group. Despite obvious differences between Polish and German rule, some similiarity and comparable opinions exist. For example the denial of existance of Ukrainian or Polish nationality, claims that their state didn't exist before, or that all their culture is the result of Polish/German, work and so on.

Coming back to the UPA death squads

I am not really interested in your obsession of calling UPA death squads.

Your sources showed 3,000 Germans killed in July, August, and September 1943, probably for UPA-North, South, and West.. Historians show 15,000 civilians killed by UPA-North in July 1943 alone.

Yes, its painfully obvious that civilians are easier to kill then soldiers in military formations. What's your point ?

[Slavomir]

Basing your knowledge on the accounts of Kresowiacy ? That's as reliable as basing your information about WW2 and Western Poland on the accounts of German expelled who wil tell you how relation with Poles were always "peacefull co-existance" when for no reason at all Poles attacked them in 1945.
Both groups are blinded by romantic and nationalistic attachment to other's people's land they ruled over. As a ruling and priviliaged class their perception is highly biased.

Following your line of thought, what would be the reason to mention such facts? If they were so "blinded" they would be rather inclined not to mention about Ukrainians helping them in the face of the massacres conducted by other Ukrainians. Just for the fact, that despite all grievances which aroused around the extermination, they still mention those who helped them survive, make those accounts reliable.

[jola]

I am not really interested in your obsession of calling UPA death squads.

What is obsessive about classifing the perpetrators of this crime? I know you are not interested, you seem to want to discuss everything but the crime, the criminals, and you even belittle the victims. Michael Mills suggested earlier that we should not discuss the crime but focus on events ten years before the crime. It's like disecting Einsatzgruppen's motivation for their crimes and ignoring the crime itself.

Yes, its painfully obvious that civilians are easier to kill then soldiers in military formations. What's your point ?

Do armies primarily kill civilians because they are easier to kill? Formations that do are called death squads.

[David Thompson]

Gentlemen --

The policy and general purpose of the forum is to provide for an exchange of views and facts on the topic, and to allow discussion of the different points of view. The viewpoints expressed by contributors to this forum are so divergent that general agreement on almost any aspect of the holocaust is unlikely and disagreement will be the rule.

Under these circumstances, in my opinion the best policy is to provide as many facts on the issue as possible, allow the contributors to state their point of view in a civil manner, and let the readers make up their own minds.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

I am not really interested in your obsession of calling UPA death squads.

The mere subjective personal opinions of one or another poster do not define our discussions here. The readers are our audience, and they're looking for facts which will help them form their own opinions. Please keep them in mind when posting, and avoid personal remarks.

[Okyzm]

Following your line of thought, what would be the reason to mention such facts? If they were so "blinded" they would be rather inclined not to mention about Ukrainians helping them in the face of the massacres conducted by other Ukrainians. Just for the fact, that despite all grievances which aroused around the extermination, they still mention those who helped them survive, make those accounts reliable.

This is 100% identical with the statements of German expelles. They also mention "helpfull Poles, Russians or even Jews". That portait is nothing more then attempt to confirm their self-image as peacefull group and deny they in any way opressed the local population(in the case of Germans they try to shif it on nationless "Nazis"). I guess the mechanism works in similiar way in Kresowiacy mentality-the Ukrainians were good and lived with Poles in peace because everything was ok. But then for no reason at all, the evil UPA appeared and destroyed those "good relations".
Thus they both confirm their self-image as blameless for what was happening, and their nationalistic and romantic vision of Kresy where Polish elite ruled over greatefull Ukrainians civilising them(which ironically is almost identical to German vision of pre-1918 Polish territories ruled over by Germans or those in 1945). Of course they are differences in both cases(Germans had far more racist and totalitarian system, Poles didn't engage in the similiar brutality as UPA when dealing with their opressors), but the existing similiarities are strikingly obvious.

[wojtop79]

Okyzm, could you please provide some sources for your statement?
You disregard personal accounts of refugees as examples of some sort of mass psychological deviation.
I suppose in this case you've got undeniable sources to support your interpretation instead of the version of eyewitnesses?

I don't buy it cause my family used to live in Volhynia region and survived only thanks to vast help of Ukrainian friends and neighbours. Some UPA members used to warn them of the incoming raids, Ukrainian neighbours used to let their kids sleep in Ukrainian houses for more security and, when eventually the family house has been burned and they moved to a hideout, some Ukrainian farmers gave them work in exchange for food. Note that each of these forms of assistance to Poles was considered a treason of the nation and punished with death by UPA. Sure this kind of accounts is anegdotical and subjective but are there any better sources?

[Okyzm]

I don't buy it cause my family used to live in Volhynia region and survived only thanks to vast help of Ukrainian friends and neighbours.

Do you know they are Germans are on net who tell "their stories" how the relations between Poles and Germans during WW2 were good during occupation of Poland ?

I prefer objective accounts of historians from both sides(objective accounts, not the likes of Siemaszko for example) rather then personal anecdotes that never surprise with their originality, no matter if coming from Polish or German side.

[Crazy_Ivan]

That you don't like Germans is obvious, but do you need to bring Germans in to every thread regardless of the subject matter?

[Okyzm]

That you don't like Germans is obvious, but do you need to bring Germans in to every thread regardless of the subject matter?

I find the similiarities between German and Kresowiak memories to colonised land fascinating.

[David Thompson]

Let's get back on topic --genocide in Volhynia.