Genocide in Volhynia

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konami
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#181

Post by konami » 20 Jul 2013, 17:02

Ponury wrote:Not really, because it's not the same. As a result of the "Vistula" at best a few elderly Ukrainians died of a heart attack. No one else.
Another Polish lie

Actually it is worse because it was Polish goverment that organized ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians and the present day goverment of Poland as its legal successor bears legal responsiblity for its actions as well

Only in Polish opertaing post-war Auschwitz hundreds of Ukrainian civilians were tortued to death.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Vistula
Members of the Ukrainian intelligentsia, including clergy (both Greek Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox), were sent from collection points to the concentration camp in Jaworzno called the Central Labour Camp, and was a branch of the formerly German concentration camp Auschwitz. At the latter camp, almost 4,000 persons were held, including 800 Ukrainian and Lemko women and dozens of children. The captives, of whom 200 died in the camp, were subject to harsh interrogations and beatings despite the fact that no active members of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists were sent to the camp. For the latter, show trials by the extraordinary Operation Group Vistula Tribunals or regular military tribunals were held, and over 500 were sentenced to death and executed.

Ukrainians in return you get good land in Pomerania, Koszalin, etc. In addition, when you finally reconciled and stop it and remind yourself that?


Well, that's Polish authorities and many Poles does not seem to be able to reconcile with the fact that Polish troubles in Ukraine were caused by Poles themselves.

Those hundreds of thousands deported Ukrainians lost everything they had, were turned homeless and with just some personal belonings were transported in cargo carriages to those distant areas so that their numbers in every area did not exceed 10 per cent. They had to start their lives from scratch under extremely miserable conditions in the adversary Polish surrounding and under the surveillence of Polish security. In fact Polish refuges from Western Ukraine were in much better conditions as they at least had relatives in Polish regions and were sympathetic by other Poles and authorities.


So tell us when "truth-loving" Polish government recoginizes the ethnic cleanising of Ukrainians and Germans with elements of genocide in post war Poland?
Last edited by konami on 20 Jul 2013, 19:47, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#182

Post by konami » 20 Jul 2013, 17:16

Peter K wrote:Askold - the so called "Volhynian Genocide" took place not only in Volyn, but also in Eastern Galicia.
with interwar Polish newcommers making up 15% of the total population
Those 15% newcomers came when exactly?

Apparently after 1931, because the percentage of Poles in Volyn did not change between 1921 and 1931. Percentage of Poles in Volhynian Voivodeship according to 1921 census was 16,8% and according to 1931 census - 16,6%. As you can see percentage of Poles even decreased in this voivodeship in period from 1921 to 1931:
Galicia_Volhynia.png
Tarnopol, Stanisławów and Lwów Voivodeships were already parts of Eastern Galicia, not Volyn:

Image
13549_6_1295171357.jpg
===================================================

As written above, the genocide encompassed not only Volyn, but also East Galicia. Map "Genocide in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia in 1943 - 1944" showing villages and towns with over 200 and over 100 victims of UIN:
UPA.jpg
As you can see the genocide encompassed not only the area of pre-1939 Volhynian Voivodeship, but:

- entire Volhynian Voivodeship
- entire Tarnopol Voivodeship
- entire Stanisławów Voivodeship
- large part of Lwów Voivodeship
So Polish military colonists In Ukraine or in Polish Wojskowi osadnicy na Kresach never existed and never settled in Ukraine according to the new Polish history? No rise of Polish population in Volhynia during interwar period that's pure falsification of history.
Why do you keep silent about Ukrainian victims of interethnic conflict in Volhyn, Eastern Galicia, and ethnic Ukrainian lands of the present-day Eastern Poland that were killed by Poles and AK units? Killed Ukrainians are not worth mentioning only Polish lives matter?


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henryk
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#183

Post by henryk » 20 Jul 2013, 19:52

konami wrote:
henryk wrote:N=
henryk, do you realise that all those figures about Polish civilian victims in Volynian interethnic conflict have never been independantly verified and come form the Polish organization of former colonists or related Polish "researchers". All these sources can't be considered unbiased or credible. You can't build a case against somebody just on the testimony of those who paints himself as victim and has no evidence to prove of whther he is a victim or perhaps a criminal himself?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_ ... rn_Galicia
From Ukrainian historians: Ivan Katchanovski: 35K-50K in Volhynia, P.R. Magocsi: 50K in Eastern Poland, John Paul Himka: 100K in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, Alexander Gogun(Russian): 25K+ in Volhynia, Panel of Polish and Ukrainian historians: 50K-60K in Volhynia, 20K-25K in Eastern Galicia, Pertti Ahonen et al. (international group of authors): 100K in Eastern Poland. This shows Ukrainian historians support the generally agreed numbers.
By the way, I presume you noticed I did give the number of Ukrainians killed.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#184

Post by konami » 20 Jul 2013, 20:57

henryk wrote:
konami wrote:
henryk wrote:N=
henryk, do you realise that all those figures about Polish civilian victims in Volynian interethnic conflict have never been independantly verified and come form the Polish organization of former colonists or related Polish "researchers". All these sources can't be considered unbiased or credible. You can't build a case against somebody just on the testimony of those who paints himself as victim and has no evidence to prove of whther he is a victim or perhaps a criminal himself?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_ ... rn_Galicia
From Ukrainian historians: Ivan Katchanovski: 35K-50K in Volhynia, P.R. Magocsi: 50K in Eastern Poland, John Paul Himka: 100K in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, Alexander Gogun(Russian): 25K+ in Volhynia, Panel of Polish and Ukrainian historians: 50K-60K in Volhynia, 20K-25K in Eastern Galicia, Pertti Ahonen et al. (international group of authors): 100K in Eastern Poland. This shows Ukrainian historians support the generally agreed numbers.
By the way, I presume you noticed I did give the number of Ukrainians killed.
Ivan Katchanovski, John Paul Himka are from Canada. There are no generally agreed numbers. What's more there are no ways to establish the number of Polish victims or their murderers as there was war with multiple sides: UPA, raiding Soviet partisans, Germans, different non-German axis formations, AK, Armija Ljudova, different armed individuals or gangs operating on their own. These numbers are simply claims of Polish settlers and their descendants organizations. Some historians just take them for truth due to some subjective non-scientific reasons. Besides, if you admit that Ukrainians killed Poles and Poles killed Ukrainians then you should admit that it wasn't a genocide but an interethnic conflict caused by Polish anti-Ukrainian expansionist policy supported by Polish settlers in Ukraine.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#185

Post by Ponury » 20 Jul 2013, 22:46

Okay, we have different opinions. And what's next?

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#186

Post by David Thompson » 21 Jul 2013, 02:48

Ponury -- Please try to include some factual content in your posts.

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henryk
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#187

Post by henryk » 21 Jul 2013, 19:24

http://www.amazon.com/Ivan-Katchanovski ... GK2A[quote]
Ivan Katchanovski teaches at the School of Political Studies at the University of Ottawa. He was a Visiting Scholar at the Davis Center for Russian and Eurasian Studies at Harvard University, a Visiting Assistant Professor in the Department of Politics at the State University of New York at Potsdam, a Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Department of Political Science at the University of Toronto and Kluge Post-Doctoral Fellow at the Kluge Center at the Library of Congress. His articles have appeared in Europe-Asia Studies, Nationalities Papers, Perspectives on European Politics and Society, Post-Soviet Affairs, Problems of Post-Communism, International Journal of Public Administration, Journal of Comparative Policy Analysis, Journal of Public Policy, Journal of Labor Research, Relations industrielles/Industrial Relations, Obshchestvennye nauki i sovremennost', U sviti matematyky, and Ukrainian Quarterly. He received his Ph.D. from the School of Public Policy at George Mason University in the US.
Website: http://uottawa.academia.edu/IvanKatchanovski

Historical Dictionary of Ukraine (Historical Dictionaries of Europe) by Ivan Katchanovski, Zenon E. Kohut, Bohdan Y. Nebesio and Myroslav Yurkevich (Jul 16, 2013
[/quote]
He has written many papers on the Ukraine, including Volhynia:
http://uottawa.academia.edu/IvanKatchanovski/Papers
Contemporary Memory Politics in Volhynia Concerning the OUN(b) and the Nazi Mass Murder Сучасна політика пам’яті на Волині щодо ОУН(б) та нацистських масових вбивств

"Ця публікація є доповненою секцією зі статті «ОУН(б) та нацистські масові вбивства літом 1941 року на історичній Волині», що вийде в наступному нашого часопису (Україна модерна, № 20).

Виявлені у 2011-12 рр. на території Володимир-Волинської в'язниці масові поховання людей й надалі викликають гострі суперечки щодо ідентифікації самих жертв та мотивів убивств. Домінантною теорією є припущення, що знайдено останки поляків, вбитих військами НКВС в 1940 чи 1941 роках. Втім, як свідчать документи, тут поховано жертв нацистів, переважно євреїв, вбитих в 1941-43 рр."

Terrorists or National Heroes? Politics of the OUN and the UPA In Ukraine
This study analyzes policies and public attitudes concerning the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) after the “Orange Revolution” in Ukraine. The issue of the political rehabilitation of these nationalist organizations, which relied on terrorism and were involved in Nazi genocide and ethnic cleansing of Poles during World War Two, became one of central political issues in this post-Soviet state. The question is which factors determine attitudes towards the OUN and the UPA in contemporary Ukraine. The hypothesis is that regional factors are the main determinants of the public opinion concerning these organizations. This paper uses analysis of historical studies and archival data to examine policies and controversies concerning the OUN and the UPA. It employs comparative and regression analyses of the 2009 Kyiv International Institute of Sociology survey to determine effects of regional factors, compared to other factors, such as ethnicity, language, and age, on attitudes towards the Stepan Bandera faction of the OUN and the UPA. The paper shows that that regional factors and perceptions of the involvement of the Bandera faction of the OUN and the UPA in mass murder are strongest predictors of views concerning these nationalist organizations.

More Info: Presented at the Annual Conference of the Canadian Political Science Association, Concordia University, Montreal, Canada, June 1-3, 2010
Publisher: cpsa-acsp.ca Publication Date: Jan 1, 2010

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henryk
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#188

Post by henryk » 21 Jul 2013, 19:50

John-Paul Himka: an expert on the Ukraine, a prolific author in English and Ukrainian, including on the UPA. http://www.historyandclassics.ualberta. ... .pdf[quote]
JOHN-PAUL HIMKA CURRICULUM VITAE
PRESENT POSITION
Professor Department of History and Classics University of Alberta
Director Research Program on Religion and Culture, Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies University of Alberta
PROFESSIONAL EXPERIENCE
University of Alberta
Visiting Assistant Professor 1977-81, 1984-85
Neporany Postdoctoral Fellow 1982-84
Assistant Professor 1985-88
Associate Professor 1988-92
Professor 1992-
Department of History and Classics 1977-79, 1984-
Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies 1977-84
Division of East European Studies 1981
Adjunct Professor
Department of Comparative Literature
Religion and Film/Media Studies 1999-2004
Harvard University Visiting Professor Department of History 1989-90
Ivano Franko University, Lviv, Ukraine Lecturer 1999
Lviv Theological Academy, Ukraine Visiting Professor 1999
OTHER PUBLICATIONS
4. “The Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army: Unwelcome
Elements of an Identity Project.” Ab Imperio 4 (2010): 83-101.
66. "Western Ukraine between the Wars." Canadian Slavonic Papers 34, no. 4 (December 1992):
391-412. This later appeared as “Western Ukraine in the Interwar Period,” Nationality Papers 22,
no. 2 (1994): 347-63.
OPINION PIECES, INTERVENTIONS
“Falsifying World War II History in Ukraine.” Kyiv Post, 9 May 2011,
http://www.kyivpost.com/news/opinion/op ... il/103895/.
Kyiv Post, 20 September 2010, http://www.kyivpost.com/news/opinion/op ... ail/83019/. Ukrainian
translation: Krytyka (July-August 2010): 21. Another Ukrainian translation in Strasti za Banderoiu, ed.
Tarik Cyril [Syril] Amar, Ihor Balyns’kyi, and Iaroslav Hrytsak (Kyiv: Hrani-T, 2010), 211-17. Polish
translation: Kultura enter, no. 29 (December 2010), http://kulturaenter.pl/klopoty-z-bander ... nczacasie-
dyskusja/2010/12/. Russian translation: Zhurnal rossiiskikh i vostochnoevropeiskikh istoricheskikh
issledovanii 2-3 (July-December 2010): 136-38.
“Should Ukrainian Studies Defend the Heritage of OUN-UPA?” and “Continuing the Debate.” The
Ukraine List (UKL), no. 441, items 6 and 8 (16 February 2010). In Ukrainian translation in Krytyka (March-
April 2010): 10-12, also: http://krytyka.com/cms/front_content.php?idart=208. Another Ukrainian
translation in Strasti za Banderoiu, ed. Tarik Cyril [Syril] Amar, Ihor Balyns’kyi, and Iaroslav Hrytsak (Kyiv:
Hrani-T, 2010), 147-54, 157-64. Russian translation: Zhurnal rossiiskikh i vostochnoevropeiskikh
istoricheskikh issledovanii 2-3 (July-December 2010): 128-33.
CONFERENCES
Paper (co-authored with Per Anders Rudling): “The Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and the Holocaust.”
American Association for the Advancement of Slavic Studies, Boston, 12-15 November 2009. (Also chair
of session on “Perpetrators and Bystanders? The Dynamics of Mass Murder of Jews in Southern
Ukraine, 1941-1944.”)
Comments at session “The Contested Memory of Ukrainian Insurgent and Military Formations.” Fourth
Annual Danyliw Research Seminar in Contemporary Ukrainian Studies, sponsored by the Chair of
Ukrainian Studies, University of Ottawa, 23-25 October 2008.[/quote]

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henryk
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#189

Post by henryk » 21 Jul 2013, 19:55

konami
What are the credentials of your sources. Please facts, not opinions.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#190

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 27 Jul 2013, 12:49

Why do you keep silent about Ukrainian victims of interethnic conflict in Volhyn, Eastern Galicia, and ethnic Ukrainian lands of the present-day Eastern Poland that were killed by Poles and AK units? Killed Ukrainians are not worth mentioning only Polish lives matter?
Everyone in Poland remembers about Ukrainians killed by Poles in revenge for Poles killed by Ukrainians.

The difference, however, is that Ukrainian victims were not victims of the Volhynian-Galician genocide.

They were victims of Polish retalliation for previous Ukrainian crimes.

Ukrainian crimes were mostly commited in 1943, while Polish retaliatory crimes - in 1944.
So Polish military colonists In Ukraine or in Polish Wojskowi osadnicy na Kresach never existed and never settled in Ukraine according to the new Polish history? No rise of Polish population in Volhynia during interwar period that's pure falsification of history.
They existed and they settled - but in Tarnopol Voivodeship, not in Volhynian Voivodeship. As you can see from data posted above, there was rise of Polish population in Tarnopol Voivodeship in the interwar period.
and never settled in Ukraine
What territory do you call Ukraine? Historical Ukraine (this name was first used in 1590) or modern one? Volhynia, Podolia and East Galicia were not parts of Ukraine as it was defined in the 16th - 19th centuries. Territorial entity called Western Ukraine (Right Bank Ukraine) encompassed areas between the Horyn River in the north-west, Southern Bug (or Dniester) River in the south-west, Pripyat River in the north and Dnieper River in the east.

On the other side of the Dnieper River, there was Eastern Ukraine (Left Bank Ukraine).

Borders of modern Ukraine have been defined after 1945 and then in 1991.

So in period 1921 - 1939 Poland did not have any lands historically called Western Ukraine.

East Galicia, Volhynia and Podolia were not parts of Ukraine. No of lands owned by the Kingdom of Poland before 1569 were called Ukraine. Ukraine came into existence in 1590, when this name was for the first time used.

=============================================================

Here you can see the historical borders of Ukraine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruin_% ... history%29

Western Ukraine (yellow area):

Image

Western + Eastern (entire Ukraine within borders of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth before the 1650s):

Image

Western Ukraine ("Vkraine ou Pays des Cosaques") according to Vincenzo Maria Coronelli's map from 1690 (areas between the Horyn River in the north-west, Southern Bug (or Dniester) River in the south-west, Pripyat River in the north and Dnieper River in the east), as compared to modern borders of Ukraine (black lines):

Image

On the same map Coronelli describes Eastern Ukraine as "Okraina" (and it extends very far to the east on his map):

Image

The understanding of what area constituted the borders of Ukraine was similar throughout the entire 17th century. Initially - in 1590 - Ukraine encompassed areas of Kiev Voivodeship and Bratslav Voivodeship. In 1635 as the result of the Treaty of Polyanovka (1634) the Chernihiv Voivodeship was created from part of lands ceded to Poland by Russia in 1634 and that Voivodeship was also incorporated to territorial entity defined as Ukraine.

Map of the Treaty of Hadiach (below) is showing proposed borders of the Ruthenian Duchy, which was to be located within the real borders of Ukraine (Kiev Voivodeship, Bratslav Voivodeship and Chernihiv Voivodeship). That Ruthenian Duchy - a political entity, not a territorial entity (unlike the region of Ukraine, within which that political entity was supposed to be located) never came into existence, because provisions of the Treaty of Hadiach were annihilated by Russian intervention and Ukraine entered a historical period called "The Ruin":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ruin_% ... history%29

Image

==================================================

Traces of those old territorial divisions can still be seen in Ukraine:

Of these 5 macroregions, only Center (Right Bank) and East-Center (Left Bank) were parts of historical Ukraine:
RussianUseEn.PNG
Historically Polish (West) and Ukrainian lands (Center, East-Center) vote differently than the rest of Ukraine:
Ukraine2004PresidentialElectionbyRegion-2.png
Ukraine2004PresidentialElectionbyRegion-2.png (98.54 KiB) Viewed 6742 times
In 2004 presidential elections historical Poland + historical Ukraine voted for Yushchenko:
640px-Другий_тур_2010_по_округах-en.png
640px-Другий_тур_2010_по_округах-en.png (224.32 KiB) Viewed 6742 times
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#191

Post by georgi23 » 30 Jul 2013, 21:20

Quid prodest? Now both groups poles and Ukrainians start recalling the past. No other problems to take care of. A fiend of my aunt was murdered by OUN/UPA in early 50s. Her only crime was that she graduated from the medical university and came to the Lviv region to provide medical care to ordinary people living in small villages. She was 25 years old. Her father was Ukrainian and her mother was Russian.
First, before speaking about genocide of Poles by Ukrainians, we need to name the real murderers who killed hundreds of Ukrainian, Poles, Russians, Jewish people in the territory of Ukraine after WWII.

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Marcus
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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#192

Post by Marcus » 30 Jul 2013, 21:23

Please stay on topic.

/Marcus

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#193

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 25 Dec 2013, 22:38

Gammadion, Broken Tie (translation to English):

I.

Subcarpathian wind carries sorrow songs
Of despair, dramas, immensity of human tears
I can still hear the moan of murdered ones
Through the glows of blazes feverish wrath

II.

Broken by hatred, brotherly tie
Doom of Polish blood, of innocent victims slaughter
Though we ate the same bread from our common land
Someone poisoned your hearts, the ones fed on conflagration

III.

When neighbour against neighbour became worst tormentor
Stalin at the Kremlin was rubbing his hands
Hiding the sneer, he was playing his own game
Of Ukrainian famine he no longer had to repent

Ref:

So much I would like, brother, to give you my hand
So much I would like to be able to forgive all of evil
Because I know, that to survive we need to go together
Even though a stab in the back strongly sticks in one's mind

So much I would like, brother, to give you my hand
So much I would like to be able to forgive all of evil
Because I know, that to survive we need to go together
Even though voices of murdered ones still shout from their graves

There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#194

Post by henryk » 11 Jul 2016, 19:42

http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/26123 ... ]President Duda pays tribute to victims of Volhynia massacre
Radio Poland External Service 11.07.2016 13:25

President Andrzej Duda has honoured the memory of Poles killed from the hands of Ukrainian nationalists in Volhynia 73 years ago.

Monument to the Victims of the Volhynia Massacre in Warsaw. Photo: PAP/Tomasz Gzell

On Monday, Duda marked the anniversary placing a memorial candle at the monument to the Victims of the Volhynia Massacre in Warsaw.

On 11 July 1943, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) carried out a coordinated attack on some 100 villages largely inhabited by the Polish population in the region of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia. The region of Volhynia, which had lain within Polish borders prior to World War II, was first occupied by the Soviets in 1939, and then by the Nazi Germans in 1941. Some 100,000 ethnic Poles were slaughtered from 1943 to 1944 by Ukraine’s guerrilla force that sought Ukrainian independence.

Passed over in silence after the war by the communist authorities, this ethnic cleansing operation has been considered an act of genocide by Poland’s Institute of National Remembrance. Last week, the Polish Senate passed a resolution declaring 11 July a National Rememberance Day for Victims of Genocide by Ukrainian nationalists. On Friday, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko paid tribute to the victims of the ethnic cleansing at the commemorative monument in Warsaw.[/quote]

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Re: Genocide in Volhynia

#195

Post by Ponury » 20 Nov 2016, 13:22


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