Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

[Jan-Hendrik]

So, what do you think happend to the 2 million? Poles executed them and burried them in mass graves? On whose orders?

No, but Poles did their part in those atrocities, but as far as we can see here the "will" to investigate the participation of Poles does not exist in Poland of our days.

No doubt there were some revenge killings, but it wasn't a policy to murder civilians unlike with the German and Soviet armies.

Of course, polonification did not include any planned terror. I see...

Jan-Hendrik

[jola]

but Poles did their part in those atrocities

Which atrocities are you refering to? What part did the Poles play in the yet unknown atrocities?

as far as we can see here the "will" to investigate the participation of Poles does not exist in Poland of our days.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but the mass grave in Marienburg is being investigated by Polish IPN as we speak. I've read nothing to suggest what you are inventing.

Of course, polonification did not include any planned terror. I see...

Not very specific, are you? However, do you know the fate of the 200,000 Polish children stolen and taken to the Reich?

[Jan-Hendrik]

Which atrocities are you refering to? What part did the Poles play in the yet unknown atrocities?

They took part in killings and torture of civilians in areas occupied by red army after 1944.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but the mass grave in Marienburg is being investigated by Polish IPN as we speak. I've read nothing to suggest what you are inventing.

Over 60 years there was only a political interest to blame germans for each and everything, an interest to investigate the murder during the ethnical cleasing of german inhibitated areas of the later Republika Ludowa did not exist at all. If the mass grave was not found by chance during building activities, still noone would have got his ass moved. If there was no publicitiy in both germany and Poland rgarding the case of Marienburg I don't believe IPN would have done more than giving a press bulletin that it must have been Red Army atrocities and over and out.

However, do you know the fate of the 200,000 Polish children stolen and taken to the Reich?

A usual try to drive the topic away from polish crimes. We know this tactic already

Jan-Hendrik

[jola]

Which atrocities are you refering to? What part did the Poles play in the yet unknown atrocities?

They took part in killings and torture of civilians in areas occupied by red army after 1944.

Thank you for being specific. A historian with a hunch.

A usual try to drive the topic away from polish crimes. We know this tactic already

So far we have no crime to discuss. Why don't we wait till something develops.

One more thing. For 60 years the communists were unwilling to investigate any crimes they themselves comitted. Ponder on that, Jan.

[varjag]

So far we have no crime to discuss. Why don't we wait till something develops

I have a gut feeling - that we may wait for a very long time , Varjag

[jola]

Another historian with a hunch, and no substance. Is this my lucky day?

[David Thompson]

Let's get back on topic.

[Jan-Hendrik]

Another article on this topic, mentioning a discrepancy between the number of DRK that speaks about 3,800 inhabitants of Marienburg missing, while the Neue Marienburger Heimatbuch mentions 4,119 dead and 3,020 missing people from the whole Landkreis Marienburg since 1939 (soldiers from this area are included in these numbers). There the city had 2,658 killed and 1,840 missing people.

Jan-Hendrik

[jola]

It would be prudent to ask the Russians what happend to the Germans when the Red Army occupied Malbork. Maybe they did what Germans did to their families.

[Musashi]

Musashi -- Was there any explanation in the Gazeta Wyborcza newspaper article of the lack of clothes on the corpses? And if there were neither bullets nor shrapnel in the graves, as the initial reports indicate, how did the German soldiers die ("the streets had been littered with German bodies and they had to move them to the mass grave") and what happened to their uniforms?

I don't have a problem with the idea of burying a lot of people in a mass grave, but the "no clothes" and "no metal" aspect adds an odd and somewhat disturbing touch to the story. If the clothes were going to be buried with the corpses anyway, why bother to take them off?

I have read a few topics on Polish historical forums about that issue.
Some members claim taking off clothes was the fastest and simpliest way to collect somebody's belongings. Other people wrote the victims may have died as a result of not deserting the city although the German Army issued such order. They could have been killed in fights, died because of cold and hunger. It was proven the Soviets handed over the city to the Polish authorities a long time after the city was seized.
I am not going to judge who killed these people and how they were killed. I think IPN is a very reliable institution and it is carrying out an investigation about that case. Until the investigation is completed any claims can be taken just as a wild guess, so unnecessary comments should not been posted.

[Marcus Wendel]

The remains of more than 2,000 people discovered in Poland's largest mass grave from World War II have been reburied in a military cemetery.
Polish and German officials presided over the ceremony at a cemetery for German soldiers in north-west Poland, near the border between the countries.
The victims are believed to be German civilians who died in the last months of the conflict, in early 1945.
The mass grave was discovered in the Polish city of Malbork last October.
Because no-one was prepared to pay for expensive DNA testing, the historians' best guess is that the victims were German civilians caught up in the Red Army's assault on the city.
At the time Malbork was Marienberg, a German city.
The first skeletons were unearthed by workmen digging the foundations of a new hotel near the city's medieval castle.
In the end, more than 2,000 skeletons were discovered, two-thirds of them belonging to women and children.
There were no accompanying documents, clothing or personal items except for one pair of child's spectacles.
Issues over the war have often divided Germany and Poland in the past, but not in this case.
Neither side voiced recriminations and they worked together to finally give the victims a dignified burial.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8202210.stm

/Marcus

[Sergey]

Let's read memoirs written by Viktor Abramovich Zalgaller

http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/ZALGALLER/byt_vojny.txt

He took park in fighting for Marienburg.

В Мариенбурге освободили лагерь-госпиталь английских, французских,
датских военнопленных. Вроде богатой гостиницы. Свои посты, кортики у
старших офицеров, письма из дома, посылки Красного Креста.
...
Позже я мог сопоставить этот лагерь с жутким женским лагерем смерти,
между Праустом и Орой. Там, справа от шоссе, за леском, был большой
огороженный участок. Вытоптанный голый плац. В глубине - бараки. На
двухэтажных нарах вперемешку живые и мертвые. Ходят под себя. Жуткий запах.
С нижних нар ползут к ногам благодарить. А ты - пятишься. Тошнит. Их возраст
неразличим. Может быть, этим скелетам старух по 18 лет. Это - еврейки из
Европы.

In Marienburg we liberated a POW camp-hospital for British, French, Danish POWs. Looks as an expensive hotel. Soldier-POWs on duty, senior officers have dirks, letters from home, parcels from the Red Cross...
...
Later I could compare the camp with horrible women's death camp, between Praust and Ora. Right from the highway near woods, there was a big fenced piece of land, grass voided soil and baracks. At the Double-deck planks there was a mixture of live and dead bodies. Those alive urinated and defecated under themselves. Scary smell. Prisoners from lower bunks creep to our legs to praise. But we step back. Their age is undetectable. Maybe these skeletons are only 18. They are Jews from Europe.

So the Death camp for Jews was quite near Marienburg. The Germans could try to hide the evidences of their crimes and burry victims 30-40 km from the camp.

[jola]

The camp he is referring to was 10 km from Gdańsk(Danzing), so nowhere near Malbork.

Both German and Polish sides are now satisfied that the truth lies only in the Soviet archives.

[Grellber]

I was there in July, but did not see/find the site of discovery. Instead i focused on the reconstructed castle. Any new info on this subject, anyone? Amazing that so many deaths can "pass unnoticed".

[Benoit Douville]

There is still a lot of Mass Grave still undiscovered on the Eastern Front I believe.

Regards