Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

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Ypenburg
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#76

Post by Ypenburg » 17 Jan 2009, 02:02

Moltke d. J. wrote:Hi,
Ypenburg wrote:= = = Establishing if these bodies are several centuries old should be easy using C14 analysis. = = =
I'm afraid for various reasons C14 is not of much use if the remains are that recent (early modern times).

Frank
I quoted Heimatschuss :wink:

Cheers
Yp

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#77

Post by beaviso » 17 Jan 2009, 02:42

Again I'd like to draw your attention to the following facts:

1. Last civilian transport departing from Marienburg on 25.01.1945.

2. Soviet troops enter the town of Marienburg on ~ 27.01.1945.

3. From the end of January until the beginning of March - constant siege of the castle and few German counterattacks

4. German troops retreat from the castle (Burg) on 09.03.1945.

From 25. January until 09. March, it's about 5 weeks when Soviet troops stayed in town, trying to break the defence of the castle. From an inhabitant's perspective - five winter weeks, weeks of sorrow, burned down ruins, lack of everything - from medicaments, through proper and clean clothing, to food rations. Just Soviet troops - foes everywhere in town. How 2000 people could have survived that period? The Soviets had no need to shoot - because German civilians would die from cold, starvation and many other miseries. Five weeks of .... what? It's still a blank page.

M.


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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#78

Post by David Thompson » 17 Jan 2009, 08:30

In my opinion, the posts of both Heimatschuss and beaviso both go a a long way towards providing potential answers to this puzzling find. Heimatschuss's post is positively ingenious and well-researched. It leaves the mystery of the 1700 remaining German inhabitants' fate unresolved, but that may be a separate problem unrelated to this find. beaviso's hypothesis is logical, but leaves us without an explanation for the lack of clothes and dental gold in the grave. Hopefully the Polish investigators will give us more to work with.

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#79

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 17 Jan 2009, 14:00

Yesterday evening in Polish TVP they said that reporters from German Bild announced that they managed to find a living eyewitness, who was in Malbork in 1945, when the Red Army entered the city.

Jonathan Harrison
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#80

Post by Jonathan Harrison » 17 Jan 2009, 19:37

Wouldn't death through siege still be a war crime? I'm not sure of the legalities in that scenario. Is an occupying power legally entitled to deny medical and food supplies in a wartime siege?

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#81

Post by David Thompson » 17 Jan 2009, 20:51

Jonathan -- You asked:
Wouldn't death through siege still be a war crime? I'm not sure of the legalities in that scenario. Is an occupying power legally entitled to deny medical and food supplies in a wartime siege?
It may be a war crime now, under articles 55 and 59 of the 1949 Geneva IV Convention for the protection of civilians. In 1945, however, neither the 1907 Hague IV Convention Annex (Section III) nor the pre-existing customs and usages of war required a belligerent to share its own resources with the population of occupied territory. See the discussion at:

The United States and the Refusal to Feed German Civilians
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=138574

The besieged population of a city at war wouldn't get the benefit of the 1907 Hague IV Annex provisions on the administration of occupied territories (Section III) either, since the besieged city hadn't been occupied yet and was still under enemy administration.

minimus
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#82

Post by minimus » 18 Jan 2009, 00:02

Do you seriously believe that skeletons from 60 yrs ago and several hundred would look even remotely similar??? 8O

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sir dude
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#83

Post by sir dude » 18 Jan 2009, 01:10

Its hard to believe that the same mass grave site would be re-used over , over again throughout history, and remain secret up until the modern era? — Also next to a Historic castle?

The Red Army was in no mood for any decedent Western Concepts called the "Geneva Convention " when it came to Germans on the frontiers of Third Reich territory. They had their own, STALIN.

Adrian.

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#84

Post by varjag » 18 Jan 2009, 12:40

Fascinating discussion and I agree with several posts. The total absence of clothing, dentures,glasses etc. amongst the bones - suggest that the perpetrator wanted to make certain that positive identification of the victims would be impossible. I.o.w. - whoever 'dunnit' gave some thought to that aspect in advance. I thank 'Heimatschuss' for his reflections on the 'bomb-crater' and also for the picture of the excavation-pit in an earlier post. Mine were exactly the same - I don't think bombs of the size reqired for that kind of crater, were used by either side in spring 1945.
The 'old dam' theory sounds more plausable - but would have required an awful lot of spade-work to cover up the crime.

It was stated in an earlier post - that at least some of the exhumations were done with an excavator, crushing the bones. Which will make it even harder to establish h o w the majority of these people died. 'About 100 with bullet holes in their skulls' were found in the 'top layer'? If that is true, I venture to suggest those one hundred - m a y have been the butchers, for whatever reason. Before they too, were shot as a reward for their labours.
Regular- and irregular troops, usually never have time for this sort of elaborate proceedings, they shoot, they kill - they move on. May I suggest that the majority of the victims may have been clubbed to death? By people who did not have ready access to guns and ammunition?

Varjag

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Marcus
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#85

Post by Marcus » 18 Jan 2009, 13:56

Two posts discussing The Assault on East Prussia in general now have a thread of their own.

/Marcus

jola
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#86

Post by jola » 18 Jan 2009, 14:04

May I suggest that the majority of the victims may have been clubbed to death?
You may suggest anything you like, including mass suicide, to the same effect.

I wonder why didn't the Volksdeutch evacuate Malbork? Were they the good Volksduetch, not involved in the occupiers' terror machine? Didn't they know how the Red Army treated German civilians at that time? Everyone else knew.

The absence of clothing is puzzling, but the Soviets robbed everything useful, and I mean everything, and shipped it east.

minimus
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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#87

Post by minimus » 18 Jan 2009, 16:44

jola wrote:I wonder why didn't the Volksdeutch evacuate Malbork? Were they the good Volksduetch, not involved in the occupiers' terror machine? Didn't they know how the Red Army treated German civilians at that time? Everyone else knew.
Gauleiter Koch's orders. It was forbidden to evacuate until it was too late. Concious policy to make the soldiers fight harder protecting the civilians just behind them.

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#88

Post by henryk » 24 Jan 2009, 21:24

Spiegal Online International
part 1 http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 31,00.html
part 2 http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... -2,00.html
1.23.09
DEATH IN MARIENBURG
Mystery Surrounds Mass Graves in Polish City
By Georg Bönisch, Jan Puhl and Klaus Wiegrefe

In the Polish city of Malbork, once part of German West Prussia, one mass grave after the other has been uncovered over the years. The causes of the mass deaths in the city following World War II remain a mystery today.

In Malbork, Poland, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) southeast of Gdansk, Radoslaw Gajc slings a pick-ax over his shoulder. Dressed in green overalls like all the city's housing industry employees, he crosses an icy dirt track, then descends into an open pit. Just 200 meters (650 feet) away, the majestic brick walls of Malbork Castle soar in the background.
Gajc is a construction worker, and together with his colleagues he's supposed to be building a luxury hotel here. Instead, he finds himself more in the role of a gravedigger. After just a few strokes with the pick-ax, Gajc strikes bone. He reaches for a small garden spade and carefully excavates the fragments of a human jaw, two teeth still attached, then drops his find into a black plastic bucket. "At first we were constantly finding children's skeletons," he says, "and that was really hard for me. I have a young son myself."

Gajc and the others are working their way through a mass grave containing the remains of at least 1,800 people, including women and children. All the bodies were naked when they were thrown into the pit, and their cause of death is unknown. Did they die during World War II? Or later, in an epidemic? Were they the dead retrieved from the city's houses and streets after battles, to be accorded at least this form of burial?

Or are they the victims of a monstrous crime? Some of the skulls, it turns out, reveal bullet holes.

So far no forensic experts have been called in, although the excavation here has been going on for months. City officials first announced the find earlier this month, and there is a strong chance the bones are the remains of Germans. The excavation is being led by Zbigniew Sawicki, the archaeologist at Malbork's castle museum. Sawicki himself is a specialist in the Middle Ages, and the construction workers on his crew are hardly qualified to perform forensic analysis.

The one thing known for sure is that Malbork, then a German city and known as Marienburg, was engulfed in a wave of violence in 1945. This has been corroborated by numerous witnesses from that time -- Germans, Poles and even a Red Army soldier. Additionally, a great deal of evidence can be found in documents from the private Marienburg Archives in Hamburg.

This is also not the first mass grave to be found in Malbork. In 1996, 178 corpses were discovered on the grounds of Malbork Castle. Nine years later, specialists exhumed the bones of 123 more, including five women and six children, from a former trench along the southern wall of the castle. But this many bodies have never before been found in a single grave.
Part 2: 'Women and Children Died'
The search for clues leads to the final months of World War II. So far, the war had largely spared the region, then known as West Prussia. But by then, Hitler's forces were on the verge of defeat and the Red Army was advancing. In 1944, the Nazis had declared Marienburg, then a city of 30,000, a "stronghold," along with other cities on their eastern front. Thousands of men dug trenches and built bunkers. Two divisions were sent in to defend Marienburg, and the leadership wanted to evacuate civilians, to be brought back into the city after it had been successfully defended.

But when the Red Army reached Marienburg on January 25, 1945, there were only about 2,000 men standing ready. The city was swarming with refugees trying to cross the Nogat River on their way west. Groups of people jammed the streets leading to the bridges. In the train stations, others fought desperately over the last seats on the trains.

German soldiers supposedly searched homes for elderly people on the morning of January 25, in order to bring them to safety. But it's impossible to know how many civilians were still in the city when the Soviet army arrived.

After the war ended, 1,840 Germans from Marienburg and the surrounding area were considered missing. Whether they died there in the city, or elsewhere while fleeing, is unknown. Similarly unaccounted for are Russian and Polish forced laborers who had been made to help in the fields, and the thousands of Italian prisoners of war who were still being held in Marienburg at the beginning of 1945.

What has been documented is that as the Soviet soldiers passed through villages in the area, again and again they shot male civilians and raped women. This was surely no different in Marienburg. Members of the German "Marienburg Brigade Group," who remained entrenched at the castle for weeks, found the bodies of several elderly women who had all been killed with an ax.

"The battles were really tough," Victor Zalgaller, a former Red Army soldier who became a mathematician in Leningrad after the war and is now retired in Israel, explains today. He says "women and children died" as well in Marienburg.

But was there really a massacre and then a giant burial directly in the city? "We could see the spot where the remains are now being found," says Richard Weiser, who was then an ensign with the brigade group in the castle. They also consistently captured and interrogated Red Army soldiers. Weiser feels sure that he and his fellow soldiers would have "noticed something" if a massacre had occurred.

Lilly Groeger, who lived in the city for several months starting in June 1945, later reported that a man she described as "the Russian" brought all the older people remaining in Marienburg "to Altmark" (a nearby village) "during the combat operations." Several, she says, were indeed shot.

Soldiers on both sides carried out a grim battle, which probably cost hundreds of lives. Afterward there was talk of sharpshooters, of at least 50 shot-at tanks and of sustained fires in the castle, set by the Soviets. Not until the night before March 10 did the brigade group withdraw. And according to Weiser, who was among the soldiers there, they buried their dead inside the castle. This means those people couldn't account for the bodies found in the pit now being excavated by Gajc and his fellow workers.

The next question is what happened in the weeks following the fighting. West Prussia, according to Allied plans, was supposed to become Polish, but in those first weeks, there was not yet a Polish administration and the city was under the Soviet army's control. Sawicki, the archaeologist, surmises that the soldiers began trying to clean up the city, and that out of fear of epidemics they gathered together and buried all the dead -- even animal corpses, which Sawicki has also found in the grave.

The theory makes sense. However, when the pastor Konrad Will reached Marienburg in mid-April 1945, according to his descriptions there were dead everywhere, "still unburied in the houses." The pastor selected a few men from the 300 residents he found in Marienburg to help him bury the dead. It took them until the end of the year to dig graves for a total of 273 corpses, as Will fastidiously recorded.

The Soviet army was under orders to detain Germans in the conquered eastern territories who were capable of working. They would then be put into forced labor either there or in the Soviet Union. There was a collecting point in Marienburg, where Soviet troops held not just Germans but also Poles. The living conditions in these camps are known to have been terrible in general, but there are no witness accounts available from Marienburg in particular. After the war, survivors like Lilly Groeger were able to report only that "the Russians took almost every one of the men." The older ones returned to the city after six weeks, but of the younger men, "no one came back." But if it was in fact German forced laborers who died in such numbers in Marienburg, how did children end up in the mass grave?

The situation in the region was chaotic at that point. Refugees who had been overrun by the Red Army were now being sent back to their hometowns. Meanwhile, Polish settlers arrived to settle the country's new territory, at the behest of the provisional communist government. Many Germans were suffering from hunger and many are known to have died of typhus in the summer of 1945, in Marienburg as well other places. Others survived and later left for West Germany. None reported that they had witnessed a mass mortality event.

Not just Russians, but Poles as well mistreated the Germans who remained in Marienburg. Max Domming, now 78, is an ethnic German from the area and remembers a dramatic occurrence he witnessed in the winter of 1945. He was 15 and had brought a cartload of wheat from a farm to have it milled in Marienburg.

"I had to wait a few hours," he reports, "so I went to look around the town." He was standing about 10 meters (30 feet) from the train station entrance, when the doors were suddenly thrown open and women and children came pouring out of the building "like a wave of water." Polish militia, he says, hurriedly drove them into the city with sticks and "the column didn't end and didn't end."

Domming, who worked for the executive committee of Germany's Social Democratic Party until retiring in 1995, estimates the number of people he saw that day at "200 to 300." What especially stuck in his memory was the sight of a boy of about 12, "poor and pale," who fell in the crowd. All the others "trampled over him, without anyone taking notice of him. When I had to leave, he was still lying there." Domming doesn't know what happened to the boy or to the others.

The Germans who did survive that period were forced to leave the city. The relevant authorities in the newly established Polish district announced proudly on November 3, 1947, that the Marienburg area was "almost 100 percent purged of Germans."

What remains is a pit full of bones, with no clues so far as to the actual events that brought them there. "We aren't finding any personal objects, no glasses, no gold teeth and above all, no clothing," says Sawicki, the archaeologist in Malbork.

Shortly before work ends each day, a truck comes and transports the workers' finds to a metal shed outside the city. The remains are being stored there in black body bags. What they really need is to be analyzed by experts as soon as possible, but the state attorney responsible for this has not yet reached a decision.

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#89

Post by ToKu » 25 Jan 2009, 11:40

According to letest Polish media reports "only" 20 skulls have traces of bullets.

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Re: Mass grave at Marienburg (Malbork)

#90

Post by varjag » 25 Jan 2009, 12:38

ToKu wrote:According to letest Polish media reports "only" 20 skulls have traces of bullets.
First it was 'about 10%', then 'about 100' - now 20??? Source please? rgds, Varjag

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