On Sunday, April 5 John Demjanjuk will be sent from the USA to Munich, Germany to stand trial there for the murder of 29,000 at Sobibor. Demjanjuk is 89 years old. Germany has appointed a lawyer to represent him at trial.
A few weeks ago another old SS man by the name of Krumpf was extradited from the USA to Austria. Austria released him and his whereabouts is now unknown.
Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Last edited by JamesL on 04 Apr 2009, 02:35, edited 2 times in total.
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David Thompson
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Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Ohio man branded Nazi guard gets deportation stay (Associated Press)
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD97B89980
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD97B89980
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michael mills
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Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
The German charges against Demjanjuk seem to be based on rather dubious evidence, and have all the hallmarks of political grandstanding by German prosecutors.
For example, this was stated in a BBC report on the German charges:
Only Jews coming from the Netherlands and other places of origin in the West would have had their names recorded in their places of origin as having been deported on a particular transport on a particular date. But those lists would simply allow us to identify individuals sent on particular transports, and we could be sure if those individuals even ended up in the Sobibor extermination centre, since the place of destination of the transports coming from France was listed as Chelm, a border town on the Bug River, and there is no way of knowing for sure which of the persons on a particular transport were sent to Sobibor and which were sent to some other destination.
Finally, even if a list could be compiled of the names of Jews who definitely arrived at Sobibor, it is hard to see how those persons could be attributed to a particular member of the camp staff as having led them into the gas chamber. The camp administration surely did not keep a record of which particular guard led the victims into the gas chamber on a particular day.
It seems that, since Demjanjuk has been proved not to be an "Ivan the Terrible" who hit Jews over the head as they entered the gas chambers in the Treblinka extermination centre, then he must be someone who did basically the same thing at Sobibor.
At each of the Globocnik camps there was a force of about 100 Ukrainian guards, most of whom did perimeter guard duty. Most of them were also involved in the process of guarding the Jewish victims when they arrived, and herding them through the process of surrendering possessions, undressing and bein shaved. What role Demjanjuk himself played, if indeed he was posted to Sobibor at one time, would be difficult to determine. In any case, the function of the Ukrainians was hardly something they had chosen for themselves; if Gerstein is to be believed, a Ukrainian guard had the job of starting up the gas-producing engine at Belzec, and got whipped in the face when the engine failed to start properly.
The claim that Demjanjuk has been identified by a number of former Sobibor prisoners also seems somewhat dubious. Demjanjuk has been under investigation since the 1970s; where were those witnesses when he was being tried for crimes allegedly committed at Treblinka? One wonders whether the identification by former Sobibor prisoners is any more valid than his misidentification by former Treblinka prisoners. It must now be close to 30 years since Denjanjuk was "identified" as "Ivan the Terrible" by former Treblinka prisoners; so the "witnesses" claimed to exist by the German prosecutors must be that much older, and that much less reliable.
For example, this was stated in a BBC report on the German charges:
It is hard to believe that Schrimm's claim could possibly be true. From all we know from the evidence of survivors and former perpetrators, there were no lists of names of persons sent to Sobibor or the other Globocnik extermination centres. Jews were simply rounded up and loaded onto trains at the various places of origin in occupied Poland, and sent off to one of the extermination centres. At most, the numbers loaded into each train were recorded. Furthermore, there was no process of registration and recording names on arrival, as there was in KL Auschwitz; the Jews were simply stripped of their clothes and possessions and then hustled along the path to the extermination camps."For the first time we have even found lists of names of the people who Demjanjuk personally led into the gas chambers. We have no doubt that he is responsible for the death of over 29,000 Jews", said Kurt Schrimm, who heads the special German office investigating Nazi crimes.
Only Jews coming from the Netherlands and other places of origin in the West would have had their names recorded in their places of origin as having been deported on a particular transport on a particular date. But those lists would simply allow us to identify individuals sent on particular transports, and we could be sure if those individuals even ended up in the Sobibor extermination centre, since the place of destination of the transports coming from France was listed as Chelm, a border town on the Bug River, and there is no way of knowing for sure which of the persons on a particular transport were sent to Sobibor and which were sent to some other destination.
Finally, even if a list could be compiled of the names of Jews who definitely arrived at Sobibor, it is hard to see how those persons could be attributed to a particular member of the camp staff as having led them into the gas chamber. The camp administration surely did not keep a record of which particular guard led the victims into the gas chamber on a particular day.
It seems that, since Demjanjuk has been proved not to be an "Ivan the Terrible" who hit Jews over the head as they entered the gas chambers in the Treblinka extermination centre, then he must be someone who did basically the same thing at Sobibor.
At each of the Globocnik camps there was a force of about 100 Ukrainian guards, most of whom did perimeter guard duty. Most of them were also involved in the process of guarding the Jewish victims when they arrived, and herding them through the process of surrendering possessions, undressing and bein shaved. What role Demjanjuk himself played, if indeed he was posted to Sobibor at one time, would be difficult to determine. In any case, the function of the Ukrainians was hardly something they had chosen for themselves; if Gerstein is to be believed, a Ukrainian guard had the job of starting up the gas-producing engine at Belzec, and got whipped in the face when the engine failed to start properly.
The claim that Demjanjuk has been identified by a number of former Sobibor prisoners also seems somewhat dubious. Demjanjuk has been under investigation since the 1970s; where were those witnesses when he was being tried for crimes allegedly committed at Treblinka? One wonders whether the identification by former Sobibor prisoners is any more valid than his misidentification by former Treblinka prisoners. It must now be close to 30 years since Denjanjuk was "identified" as "Ivan the Terrible" by former Treblinka prisoners; so the "witnesses" claimed to exist by the German prosecutors must be that much older, and that much less reliable.
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7982829.stmA US judge has blocked an order to deport an alleged Nazi concentration camp guard, two days before he was due to be extradited to Germany.
John Demjanjuk, 89, is accused of involvement in the deaths of 29,000 Jews at a camp in Nazi-occupied Poland.
He denies any involvement and has asked for asylum in the US, arguing that deportation would constitute torture.
An immigration judge said the block would stay until a decision had been reached on whether to re-open his case.
Lawyers for Mr Demjanjuk say his health is far too poor for him to make the journey.
/Marcus
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
This is lunacy. Tormenting old people looks really bad even if they be alleged Nazi war criminals. A man is still innocent unless proven guilty and the powers that be just want to get this guy before he dies. The USA didn't even stand by a citizen even though he paid his dues into the system for 40+ years as an auto-worker, obeying the law and paying his taxes. We have people (non-citizens) flopping here from all around the world not paying taxes, leeching off the system, breaking every law written, and they have all the "rights" possible. I think it's disgusting and very hypocritical for democracies to speak of "human rights abuses" when this kind of torture goes on.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8187yXJkM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eg8187yXJkM
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
What, if you're 89 years old and have paid your taxes for 40 years, it clearly doesn't matter much whether you've assisted in the murder of 29,000 people, and trying to establish if you have or not is "torture"? Trying to think that through once more is perhaps in order?This is lunacy. Tormenting old people looks really bad even if they be alleged Nazi war criminals. A man is still innocent unless proven guilty and the powers that be just want to get this guy before he dies. The USA didn't even stand by a citizen even though he paid his dues into the system for 40+ years as an auto-worker, obeying the law and paying his taxes. We have people (non-citizens) flopping here from all around the world not paying taxes, leeching off the system, breaking every law written, and they have all the "rights" possible. I think it's disgusting and very hypocritical for democracies to speak of "human rights abuses" when this kind of torture goes on.
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Ok, I just think it's disgusting to torture old men like that. I know that "justice" is wanted and called for but the man is 90 years old, his body is shot, his memory is shot, the survivor's memories are also shot and if he dies en route they will have killed an innocent man.
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
There was a good book out there titled "The Politics of Memory" (I forgot the author's name but the title is correct).
The book makes a good point about how memories change with time to the point where it is no longer true or real - in other words, the memory becomes a lie and those persons end their days believing the lie. It's a form of self-delusion. Look at all of those people who came to accuse John Demjanjuk in Israel - they were so certain - all of them - that he was their tormentor and the man who killed their families. Some even passed out in their anguish but they just knew that bastard in the glass box was the infamous and evil "Ivan the Terrible" - all of them were wrong. Ivan was someone else - a Russian by the name of Ivan Marchenko. That was 20 years ago....what are they going to say now?? How could anyone get a fair trial with the "politics of memory" fermenting in elderly brains for another 20 years?
The book makes a good point about how memories change with time to the point where it is no longer true or real - in other words, the memory becomes a lie and those persons end their days believing the lie. It's a form of self-delusion. Look at all of those people who came to accuse John Demjanjuk in Israel - they were so certain - all of them - that he was their tormentor and the man who killed their families. Some even passed out in their anguish but they just knew that bastard in the glass box was the infamous and evil "Ivan the Terrible" - all of them were wrong. Ivan was someone else - a Russian by the name of Ivan Marchenko. That was 20 years ago....what are they going to say now?? How could anyone get a fair trial with the "politics of memory" fermenting in elderly brains for another 20 years?
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7986249.stmA US judge has revoked the stay of deportation for John Demjanjuk, who is accused of being an accessory to the murder of 29,000 Jews in a Nazi camp.
The judge's decision clears the way for Mr Demjanjuk, 89, to be sent to Germany to face trial over his alleged crimes.
Mr Demjanjuk, who moved to the US after World War II, is accused of being a death camp guard in occupied Poland.
The Ukrainian had argued against deportation on grounds of ill health, saying it would amount to torture.
/Marcus
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Demjanjuk can still appeal the revocation of the stay but it's unlikely he will be successful. Eli Rosenbaum (of the government's Holocaust Special Investigations Unit) wants this guy on his way to Germany pronto - he signed the order himself and says Demjanjuk's health has no part in the deportation case. I've seen Rosenbaum in interviews and he is a zealot of the most implacable kind. In the meantime, a drug cartel member from Mexico who has murdered hundreds of villagers can come and go as he pleases without fear of deportation. I've seen just about as much hypocrisy from these government people as I care to realise - from Project Paperclip to coddling Joseph Stalin. Isn't it amazing that it was the USA which thus far has been the only country to have actually used "The Bomb" when Hitler didn't even have backbone to use gas on the advancing Allies?? Crimminy.
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
The man is accused of assisting in the murder of 29,000 people. Twenty-nine-thousand-people. Children, old folks, women. For my part I don't care if he's 120 and in a coma - there is no reprieve from this. Ever.
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David Thompson
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Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
Qvist wrote:
I agree.The man is accused of assisting in the murder of 29,000 people. Twenty-nine-thousand-people. Children, old folks, women. For my part I don't care if he's 120 and in a coma - there is no reprieve from this. Ever.
Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
No, we are better than that. We don't torture old men.
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David Thompson
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Re: Demjanjuk extradited to Germany
J. Duncan -- You wrote:
You've said this three times now in your sequence of opinion posts, but the only thing that's being tortured is your use of the word "torture" in this context. Exaggerated metaphors are usually an indication that an argument lacks merit, and consequently has to be heavily rouged in order to appear attractive. Your argument is giving me the same impression.We don't torture old men.