War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33963
Joined: 08 Mar 2002, 23:35
Location: Europe
Contact:

War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#1

Post by Marcus » 11 Apr 2009, 18:12

[Split from HitlerJugend in Normandy]
Rob - wssob2 wrote:I do know that in the first week of the invasion (June 6 - 13, 1944) one out of every seven Canadian casualties in the Normandy campaign were murdered after being captured by 12th SS troops. (see Conduct Unbecoming: The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy by Howard Margolian)
Here is the relevant quote from page 123 of the "Conduct Unbecoming" book.

/Marcus
Attachments
page 123.jpg
page 123.jpg (59.73 KiB) Viewed 6903 times

User avatar
gunslinger
Member
Posts: 235
Joined: 01 Sep 2004, 19:12
Location: Netherlands
Contact:

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#2

Post by gunslinger » 12 Apr 2009, 21:43

@Rob - wssob2
I do know that in the first week of the invasion (June 6 - 13, 1944) one out of every seven Canadian casualties in the Normandy campaign were murdered after being captured by 12th SS troops. (see Conduct Unbecoming: The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy by Howard Margolian)

Its hard to stay on topic, isnt it?


maybe you can start a new topic, like "The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy "
i believe this havent been done on this forum :? :roll:


Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#3

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 13 Apr 2009, 00:43

Its hard to stay on topic, isnt it?
Not really.

Imad asked for evidence regarding "casualties inflicted by the Hitler Jugend Division on the British and Canadians." Which I provided.
maybe you can start a new topic, like "The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy "
i believe this havent been done on this forum
No need to; there are plenty in the Holocaust and War Crimes section.

Do you have a problem with my mentioning the HJ's atrocious record of war crimes?

Perhaps you prefer your SS divisions with their reputations whitewashed. Heaven forbid we should let mention a SS unit's war crimes drift into this forum.

User avatar
Georg_S
Forum Staff
Posts: 5565
Joined: 08 Dec 2016, 13:37
Location: Sweden

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#4

Post by Georg_S » 15 Apr 2009, 08:28

Rob - wssob2 wrote: I do know that in the first week of the invasion (June 6 - 13, 1944) one out of every seven Canadian casualties in the Normandy campaign were murdered after being captured by 12th SS troops. (see Conduct Unbecoming: The Story of the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy by Howard Margolian)
What is his source for this claim? Just curious.

//Georg

phillip burke
Member
Posts: 169
Joined: 04 Dec 2004, 03:18
Location: united kingdom

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#5

Post by phillip burke » 16 Apr 2009, 00:30

Hello everyone,until i read Conduct Unbecoming i was quite uninformed on the murders, only having MeyersGrenadire and After the Battle s excellent books and magazines, and Divisonal book by Meyer.Once i read Conduct Unbecoming a lot of the mis information becomes clear due to the excellent notes.He names the names of the witnesses german and canadian.Refers to all trial documents and much more. I used to think that the murders where heat of battlefield or direct retalation, but after reading this Meyer really did have a case to answer too and until you read this book you are uninformed.Also in After the Battles D-DAY Then and Now Vol 2 quote Meyer returned to his former HQ, where Jean-Marie accompanied him into the garden. There, Meyer concurred with what had happend , but said it was difficult for an officer to admit such things to an enemy court.Ihave a lot of respect for combat soldiers but in this case the Hitlerjuend Division is guilty of warcrimes and as i said before read the book .it is so well researched its essential reading if your inerested in the Normandy battle or just the Hitlerjugend Division.

whitford
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: 19 Mar 2009, 06:53

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#6

Post by whitford » 16 Apr 2009, 04:49

My uncle fought with the Toronto Scottish and he had little doubt that the SS committed numerous atrocities. He was always very generous about the regular German army, arguing that they were doing the same job as every soldier would. The Waffen SS he was less charitable about, telling me they were 'all miserable bastards'.

User avatar
Imad
Member
Posts: 1412
Joined: 21 Nov 2004, 04:15
Location: Toronto

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#7

Post by Imad » 16 Apr 2009, 06:40

This is a little OT but I don't think the HJ or the Waffen SS in general had any kind of a monopoly on committing war crimes. There were monstrous acts committed by the Heer and also by Allied troops for the matter.
What is probably true is that the Waffen SS war crimes far exceeded those of their opponents and their compatriots. There is no doubt about that. But I would really like to see some kind of literature on dishonourable acts committed by Allied troops as well. Otherwise it's hard to have get a balanced view on the subject.
General Harry Foster, who was part of the prosecuting team in Panzermeyer's trial, privately told his son that the only reason Meyer was on trial was because he was on the losing side. If the Allies had lost the war there would have been British, American and Canadian officers who would have had a lot to answer for.

tonyh
Member
Posts: 2911
Joined: 19 Mar 2002, 13:59
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: HitlerJugend in Normandy

#8

Post by tonyh » 16 Apr 2009, 15:12

Imad wrote:What is probably true is that the Waffen SS war crimes far exceeded those of their opponents and their compatriots.
Well, do they? Or are they just written about/discussed more often?

I wonder if anyone's ever started a thread about the atrocities committed against the 12th SS? Or the Waffen SS in general.


Tony

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#9

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 16 Apr 2009, 21:22

Hello everyone,until i read Conduct Unbecoming i was quite uninformed on the murders, only having MeyersGrenadire and After the Battle s excellent books and magazines, and Divisonal book by Meyer.Once i read Conduct Unbecoming a lot of the mis information becomes clear due to the excellent notes.He names the names of the witnesses german and canadian.Refers to all trial documents and much more. I used to think that the murders where heat of battlefield or direct retalation, but after reading this Meyer really did have a case to answer too and until you read this book you are uninformed.Also in After the Battles D-DAY Then and Now Vol 2 quote Meyer returned to his former HQ, where Jean-Marie accompanied him into the garden. There, Meyer concurred with what had happend , but said it was difficult for an officer to admit such things to an enemy court.Ihave a lot of respect for combat soldiers but in this case the Hitlerjuend Division is guilty of warcrimes and as i said before read the book .it is so well researched its essential reading if your inerested in the Normandy battle or just the Hitlerjugend Division.
I completely agree. Margolian's book is essential reading for anyone interested in the history of the 12th SS Division.
This is a little OT but I don't think the HJ or the Waffen SS in general had any kind of a monopoly on committing war crimes.
Actually, I think a case can be made that if there was a war crime common to multiple W-SS units across different times and campaigns of WWII in western Europe, it would be the arbitrary execution of surrendered POWs at the beginning of a W-SS offensive. It was a scenario that happened multiple times during the invasion of France, the Normandy campaign and the Battle of the Bulge.
There were monstrous acts committed by the Heer
No doubt on the East; not so much in the West.
and also by Allied troops for the matter.
Some.
But I would really like to see some kind of literature on dishonourable acts committed by Allied troops as well.
There is plenty.
General Harry Foster, who was part of the prosecuting team in Panzermeyer's trial, privately told his son that the only reason Meyer was on trial was because he was on the losing side.
If he told his son privately, how did you come by that knowledge?

General Foster was the president of the Canadian war crimes court that found Meyer guilty of some (but not all) of the charges and proclaimed the death sentence subject to higher review.

Imad, are you alleging that General Foster himself thought the war crimes procedings a sham?
If the Allies had lost the war there would have been British, American and Canadian officers who would have had a lot to answer for.
But the irrefutable fact remains that the western Allies fought a "cleaner" war than the Third Reich. And had the Third Reich won the war, Nazi jurisprudence would not have given any defendants a ghost of a chance.
Well, do they? Or are they just written about/discussed more often?
The postwar war crimes trials have left historians with mountains of data and evidence, true. If you want to research an US Army war crimes (for example the 45th ID at Sicily) you have to dig deeper into primary-source files.

I'd say that the incidents of W-SS war crimes keep getting reexamined or uncovered. Look at the 12th SS summary execution of 80-odd French civilians at Ascq just prior to the Normandy campaign. It's an event on par with the massacre committed by the 2nd SS Panzer Division at Tulle, yet there is relatively little written about it in English. And what little there is written about it is just shameful whitewashing - I am speaking of Hubert Meyer's pathetic claim that it was just a "situation that got out of hand." No it wasn't - it was just standard-issue, cold-blooded, bandenkampfung murder, Waffen-SS style.
I wonder if anyone's ever started a thread about the atrocities committed against the 12th SS? Or the Waffen SS in general.
Their number is legion:

Atrocities of 12. SS-Panzer-Division "Hitlerjugend"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=109598

12th SS ambulances strafed by allied planes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=145989


Warcrimes against 17 SS Götz von Berlichingen
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24007


Alleged massacre of POWs at Chenogne
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=51147
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50878


"Seidler-De Zayas list" of American war crimes
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46211

45th (Thunderbird) Division during the invasion of Sicily
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24614


Spitze massacre by US troops
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=148435

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#10

Post by michael mills » 18 Apr 2009, 04:44

Is there more information on the 147 Canadian soldiers killed after being captured by the Waffen-SS "Hitlerjugend" Division between 7 and 11 June 1944?

Any information on the circumstances of the killings? For example, were they shot while trying to surrender, walking towards the German troops with their hands up? Were they accepted as prisoners, marched to a rear area, and then gunned down en masse?

To my mind, there is a difference between the two situations. Judging from anecdotal evidence (which admittedly is often untested in court), it was quite common for members of any army to simply shoot surrendering enemy soldiers, or soon after surrender, in the midst of an ongoing battle. The reason is obvious; no unit engaged in heavy combat wants to be encumbered with prisoners, when all its members are needed in the front line, and none can be spared to guard prisoners or take then to the rear without detracting form the unit's overall fire-power.

The situation is different in cases where prisoners have been accepted, disarmed and taken to the rear, out of the combat zone. In this case, it is possible for the captors to spare men to guard the prisoners, and there is far less jusitification for summarily executing them.

What was the situation with the 147 Canadians? I get the impression from the short quoted passage that this was not a single massacre of assembled prisoners, but that there was a number of incidents.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#11

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 18 Apr 2009, 05:46

Hi Michel,
Is there more information on the 147 Canadian soldiers killed after being captured by the Waffen-SS "Hitlerjugend" Division between 7 and 11 June 1944?
Margolian's book is the best published work on the incidents that I've seen. Some of the trial documentation is available on the web. Hubert Meyer's two-volume Hitlerjugend divisional history also has some information. There are bits of additional information scattered here and there in other published works.

Any information on the circumstances of the killings? For example, were they shot while trying to surrender, walking towards the German troops with their hands up? Were they accepted as prisoners, marched to a rear area, and then gunned down en masse?
The incidents that came to the attention of the Canadian War Crimes investigation team were more of the latter.

To my mind, there is a difference between the two situations. Judging from anecdotal evidence (which admittedly is often untested in court), it was quite common for members of any army to simply shoot surrendering enemy soldiers, or soon after surrender, in the midst of an ongoing battle. The reason is obvious; no unit engaged in heavy combat wants to be encumbered with prisoners, when all its members are needed in the front line, and none can be spared to guard prisoners or take then to the rear without detracting form the unit's overall fire-power.
Waffen-SS historian Michael Renyolds also mentions this particular set of circumstances and/or motivation in his writings on the "Malmedy Massacre" incident during the Battle of the Bulge.
The situation is different in cases where prisoners have been accepted, disarmed and taken to the rear, out of the combat zone. In this case, it is possible for the captors to spare men to guard the prisoners, and there is far less jusitification for summarily executing them.
Absolutely.
What was the situation with the 147 Canadians? I get the impression from the short quoted passage that this was not a single massacre of assembled prisoners, but that there was a number of incidents.
You are absolutely correct in discerning that there were multiple incidents; the circa 147 Canadians weren't all gunned down at the same time on the same day.

Here's a brief, rough synopsis of the incidents:

Authie, France - June 7, 1944:
12th SS tanks push Canadian forces back. SS-PGR 25 troops follow along behind. Two platoons from the Canadian 9th Novas C Company and a platoon from A Company, plus stragglers from the Ottowa Cameroons, doggedly defend Authie, reinforced by one Canadian Sherman tank and several Vickers gun carriers. Under the German tank, infantry and artillery assault, the Canadians are forced to withdraw from Authie after an hour of heavy combat. The 9th Nova Scota Highlanders withdraw to Les Buissons after suffering 242 causalties. The Sherbrooke Fusiliers lose 63 men and 25-30 tanks (Canadian and German after-action reports differ as to the exact number of Canadian AFV’s lost). III/SS-PGR 25 losses are: 28 KIA, 70 WIA, 12 MIA; 5th and 6th Company of 12th SS Panzer Abt: 13 KIA, 11 WIA plus 9 Panzer IVs. I/SS-PGR 25 losses are 15 KIA, 73 WIA, 10 MIA. SS-PGR 26 has lost 7 KIA and 19 WIA by Allied air attack. Canadian 24th Lancers report the capture 40 12th SS POWs near Martragny.

The Hitlerjugend counterattack has forced the 9th Canadian Infantry Brigade back three miles. Milius’ attack prevents the Canadians from seizing Carpiquest Airfield and keeps Caen in German hands.

Upon the capture of Authie, III/SS-PGR 25 troops summarily execute 37 Canadian POWs, many of them wounded. SS panzergrenadiers drag a half-dozen Canadian bodies into the street to be run over by German vehicles. However, at least in one instance senior SS officers intervened to prevent a Canadian POW from being executed. Of the 37 Canadian POWs killed that day, at least nine were summarily executed on the Authie-Cussy Road.

Abbaye d’Ardenne, (KG Meyer's HQ) - June 7, 1944:
SS-Obersturmführer Gunther Doldi & SS Feldgendarmerie troops process Canadian POWs at an orchard at the southern end of the village of Cussy. Doldi decides to send the POWS onto the SS-PGR 25 HQ at Abbaye d’Ardenne. SS military police march the POWs to the Abbaye, where in the courtyard the Canadians are forced to relinquish their paybooks, papers and military identification.

At 8PM, Meyer order Doldi to move the Canadian POWs out. Senior SS Feldgendarmerie are ordered to Bretteville to establish a POW holding cage. Grenadiers from SS-PGR 25 are assigned to guard the prisoners. While the main group of POWs are marching towards Bretteville, SS guards segregate eleven POWs and escort them back to the Abbaye chateau. The eleven Canadian POWs are briefly interrogated individually in the chateau garden, and then executed. SS troops kill six of the Canadians by crushing their skulls with a club and the remaining five are dispatched with a bullet to the brain. CO Meyer is present at the chateau during the interrogations and executions.


Chateau d’Audrieu/Pavie - June 8, 1944:
24 Canadian and two British troops captured by the 12th SS AA at Brouay are transferred to a escort guard from the III/SS-PGR 26 and marched down the road to Pavie. But the POWs are then stopped at a crossroad just easy of Pavie, and searched. A small group of POWs is separated from the main body and interrogated by 12th SS AA CO Gerhard Bremer and a Capt. Gern von Reitzenstein (AA company HQ CO) at the Chateau d’Audrieu. Bremer, who speaks English fluently, interrogates Canadian Major Frederick Hodge, CO of A Company, Royal Winnipeg Rifles, and two enlisted men for fifteen minutes. Bremer then orders SS-Obersturmführer Willi-Peter Hansmann to kill the prisoners. Hansmann and a small execution squad gun the POWs down at the edge of a nearby wood.

Bremer then calls for another set and interrogates three more Canadian POWs, all enlisted men, one a Pvt. David Gold a medic from the Royal Winnipeg Rifles. Again, after a brief conversation, Bremer orders the POWs to lie on their stomachs, and then the SS guards under a NCO fire their rifles point-blank into the skulls of the prostrate POWs. The SS executions then visit the chateau kitchen for cider and food.

Word of a nearby Allied probe forces Bremer to briefly halt the interrogations as the surviving 20-odd POWs are held under guard. By 430 PM, Bremer has the remaining POWs executed in two batches. By early evening, Allied shellfire forces Bremer to withdraw from Pavie and Chateau d’Audrieu. The British Dorset’s Regiment occupies the building and discovers the bodies of the 13 executed Canadian prisoners.


Abbaye d’Ardenne, (KG Meyer's HQ) - June 8, 1944:
SS private Jan Jesionek, a Polish volksdeutsche conscript from Hitlerjungend’s 15th Recon. Company, SS-PGR 25, is busy repairing his motorcycle’s engine in the courtyard when he is approached by SS troops guarding seven Canadian prisoners. The guards ask for the whereabouts of CO Meyer. Upon seeing the POWs, Meyer angrily shouts "WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH THESE PRISONERS!? THEY ONLY EAT UP OUR RATIONS!” Briefly conferring with one of his subordinates, Meyer then announces "IN THE FUTURE, NO MORE PRISONERS ARE TO BE TAKEN!” The unknown SS subordinate then briefly interrogates each of the seven POWs, who are then each lead individually into the Abbaye garden, where the escorting SS NCO fires his machine pistol at the back of the prisoner’s head. Soon all seven POWs lie in a bloody heap in the garden. Later in the day while riding a sidecar, Kurt Meyer is slightly wounded and his driver killed when hit by MG fire.


Fontenay-le-Pesnel /Mohnke's Murderous Madness Part I - June 8-9, 1944
Regimental CO Mohnke is annoyed at news of the pending arrival of 100 Canadian POWs to his headquarters. He phones II Battalion CO Siebken and orders him to stop sending POWs. Siebken tells Mohnke that he will continue to send POWs to the rear.

At 9PM, a high-ranking SS officer (possibly Mohnke) stops the POW column and issues a stream of angry orders to the SS NCO in charge of the prisoners. Canadian Lt. Reg Barker of the Third Anti-tank Regiment, who speaks German, informs his fellow captives that the SS officer has ordered the POWs to be shot, but that he would try to talk the guards out of it.

The SS guards escort the POWs to the Caen-Fontenay Road, where they are ordered to sit down in several rows in a field at a crossroads less than a mile from Fontenay-le-Pesnel while a column of SS AFV’s rolls by. A half-track pulls up to the sitting prisoners, and the SS guards exchange their rifles for submachine guns from the vehicle. The guards, with weapons at the ready, then turn to face the sitting POWs. Lt. Barker, seated in the first row, shouts out "WHOEVER IS LEFT, AFTER THEY FIRE THE FIRST ROUND, GO TO THE LEFT!!”

The SS guards raise their machine pistols as one announces in English, "NOW YOU DIE!”

Thirty-five of the forty POWs are killed in the fusillade. Five manage to escape, but are eventually recaptured by other German units. Postwar, Canadian investigators attempt to identify the perpetrators, but can not determine which exact 12th SS members are responsible for the massacre. The Fontenay-le-Pesnel murders remain the biggest war-crime in Canada’s history.

Mohnke's Murderous Madness Part II/ British killing of German POWs - June 8-9, 1944
After Mohnke orders the 40 POWs shot, he proceeds to Siebken’s HQ to berate him. But an unexpected arrival alters the situation. Count Clary-Aldrigen, a captain in the Heer Panzer Lehr Artillery Regiment, is brought to Siebken’s HQ wounded. Clary-Aldrigen recounts that he was captured by British troops near Hill 102 earlier in the day along with several other senior officers of the artillery regiment, including the CO, a Col. Luxenburger, and a battalion commander, Major Zeissler. The British forces are an armored car detachment from C Squadron, Inns of Court Regiment. The British troopers order the prisoners to ride on the armored cars, possibly to be used as human shields. The German POWs refuse. The British beat Col. Luxenburger unconscious and tie him to the front of one of the cars. The British then shoot at the remaining POWs as they pull out. Clary-Aldrigen claimed to be the only survivor of the shooting and that the armored car Luxenburger was strapped to was soon hit by gunfire, killing Luxenburger.

In his postwar history of the division (Vol I, p. 172-173), Hubert Meyer recalled the account as follows:
"...The Panzer Lehr Division suffered further heavy losses during this say through a terrible occurrence of a completely different nature. Two English scouting parties, numbered 2 and 6A, had crossed unnoticed thorough the thin security line of Panzeraufklarungsabteilng 12 on the left flank of the division. They were part of C Squadron of the Inns of Court Regiment…Near a hill, probably Hill 102, one kilometer south of Cristot, the two scouting parties encountered a group of members of the staff or the Panzer-Artillerie-Regiment 130 of the Panzer-Lehr Division. This group was made up of the regimental commander, Major Zeissler, the regimental adjutant, Hauptman Graf (count) Clary-Aldringen and some six NCOs and men. They had driven ahead to this location which offered a view of the area to prepare the action of the Regiment for the attack which had been ordered for 9 June.

According to the report by Graf Clary, these German soldiers were completely surprised by the English scouting parties and taken prisoner. After the German officers refused to voluntarily ride on the English armored reconnaissance vehicles as shields against bullets, the badly disabled Oberst Luxenberger (he had lost an arm in the First World War) was bound by two English officers, beaten unconscious and tied to an English ARV, covered with blood. After respective orders had been received by radio, Major Zeissler, Graf Clary and the NCOs and men of the group were shot to pieces by the retreating British armored reconnaissance vehicles. Except for Graf Clary who was saved from further bullets, after having received a number of wounds, by a dead comrade who had fallen on him, all German soldiers were killed. When the British reconnaissance vehicles crossed the German lines from the rear they were knocked out by a German anti-tank gun. Oberst Luxenberger, tied to one of the vehicles, was wounded. He was taken to a German hospital where he die soon after. Graf Clary regained consciousness after some time and crawled, badly wounded, in the direction of the village of Le Mensil-Patry. Members of the II/26 found him and took him to the command post where he was given first aid and by the battle reporter, Sturmann Klödin. 24 (footnote states: “Petition by lawyer Dr. jur (LLD) A. Oehlert of 20.11.48 to the supreme military justice authorities)

The war diary of the Inns of Court Regiment reports on this event on 8 June:

'2 and 6A captured three German officers, among them a Colonel and 3 [this probably means other ranks]. Upon withdrawing they were knocked out and lost all vehicles. Lieutenant Yodaiken and Lieutenant Wigram were killed, two other ranks missing. Four other ranks, led by Corporal Fowler, retired on foot use the compass for guidance.(footnote 25)'

In retaliation, three Canadian prisoners of war were ordered shot near the command post of the II/26 on the following day. After the war, a so-called “War Criminals Trial” took place because of this against Obersturmbannführer Siebken, Untersturmbannführer Schnabel and two men of the battalion. "

At any rate, Mohnke hears this account of British troops killing German POWS and flies into a rage, ordering Siebken to execute all POWs. Siebken in turns argues that this approach would do little than lead to escalating and counterproductive tit-for-tat reprisals between Allied and German forces.

Around midnight, three additional Canadian POWs, all wounded, are brought into Siebken’s HQ and are treated by a Dr. Schütt, the II Battalion’s medical officer. Mohnke orders the prisoners shot, but storms out of the command post after yet another heated argument with Siebken. After Mohnke leaves, Siebken calls division headquarters and speaks to divisional Chief of Staff (Ia) Hubert Meyer. Siebken asks Meyer if there is a standing order to execute prisoners. Hubert Meyer denies the existence of any such order and mentions that on the contrary, as many POWs as possible are to be taken for intelligence gathering.

Concerned about Mohnke’s erratic behavior, Hubert Meyer calls the SS-PGR 26 command post. Mohnke is not there, so Hubert Meyer speaks to his adjutant, a SS-Hauptsturmführer Kaiser. Hubert Meyer tells Kaiser that POWs are to be taken and treated according to the Geneva Convention.

On June 9, Mohnke returns to SS-PGR 26 HQ and upon arrival, telephones II Battalion HQ to see if the three wounded Canadian POWs have been executed. AGAIN Mohnke travels to the Battalion HQ. Siebken is away at the front, and Mohnke again storms out. Returning in the early morning, Mohnke looks for Siebken, who is still away. Mohnke then pulls his pistol out and threatens the battalion’s special mission officer Dietrich Schnabel to execute the Canadians or else.

Circa 9AM, Schnabel drives over to the Moulin farmhouse where the three Canadian POWs have had their wounds dressed and have been given a pitcher of milk for breakfast. Schnabel orders the three prisoners into an adjacent garden along with three attending SS medical orderlies. The Canadians, one of whom cannot walk unaided, limp into the garden. At Schnabel’s command, the three SS medics shoot the Canadians in the back. Schnabel then puts a bullet into the brains of Privates Harold Angel, Ernest Baskerville and Frederick Holness.

Cheaux via Le Mesnil-Patry, June 11, 1944
The Canadian Armored Brigade (6th Armored Regiment) and Queen’s Own Rifles of Canada launch an attack on Le Mesnil-Patry against the II Battalion, Panzer Regt. 12, SS-Panzer Pionier Abt. 12 and Hitlerjugend panzergrenadiers. The First Hussars lose 34-37 tanks in two hours of extremely heavy combat; 12th SS tank losses stand at six. The Queen’s Own Rifles suffer 95 casualties out of a compliment of 136. Hitlerjugend troops execute circa 13 captured Canadian tank crewmen in six separate incidents. However, both sides maintain a brief ad-hoc cease-fire as Canadian ambulances pick up wounded from the battlefield.

Mohnke's Murderous Madness Part III - Le Haut de Bosq, June 11, 1944
Mohnke orders three Canadian POWs executed at his regimental HQ.

Mouen - June 17, 1944
SS-Panzer Pionier Abt. 12 troops kill an additional seven Canadian POWs

michael mills
Member
Posts: 9000
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#12

Post by michael mills » 18 Apr 2009, 06:28

It would seem that the majority of the 147 Canadian soldiers were killed in real massacres, well away from the heat of combat. Some appear to have been selected for killing, while other POWs were left unharmed. The description of the incidents does not give any basis for the selection of some POWs for interrogation and execution, while other POWs were not.

The incidents at Abbaye d'Ardenne on 7 and 8 June, at Chateau d'Audrieu on 6 June, at Fontenay le Peynel on 8-9 June, and at Le Haut de Bosq on 11 June.

A smaller number seem to have been individually killed on the battlefield, perhaps while trying to surrender. That would seem to be the case at the combat at le Mesnil-Patry on 11 June, and perhaps at Mouen on 17 June. The killing of 37 POWs at Authie seems to have taken place during or immediately after a battle, and was possibly a case of German troops going on a rampage in a state of rage and high excitement during and after a battle, without any orders to kill prisoners having been given.

It does not appear that there was any general policy on the part of the leadership of the "Hitlerjugend" Division to kill their prisoners. The accounts suggest that the executions behind the lines and away from the battlefirled for the initiative of individual officers (including the commander), while other officers opposed the summary executions and tried to prevent or stop them.

In one case, at Authie, it seems there was a rampage by soldiers involved in a battle, and that some of the officers tried to prevent it.

All in all, it does not seem to me that one can speak of atrocities committed by the "Hitlerjugend" Division as a whole or as a unit. Rather, there were atrocities committed or ordered by individual officers of the division, which other officers opposed and tried to prevent. Other killings were perpetrated by groups of members of the division enraged by recent combat. According to Chief of Staff Hubert Meyer, there were no standing orders to execute prisoners.

There seems to me to be no reason for taking the acts of those officers and soldiers of the division who committed atrocities as more representative of the nature of the "Hitlerjugend" Division as a whole than the actions of those officers who opposed and tried to stop the atrocities. Perhaps II Battalion CO Siebken should be seen as being as much representative of the mentality of the division as Regimental CO Mohnke.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#13

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 18 Apr 2009, 07:44

Hi Michael - you've hitting the nail on the head to several of the important (and controversial) aspects of the events which became the subject of the Canadian war crimes trials.
It would seem that the majority of the 147 Canadian soldiers were killed in real massacres, well away from the heat of combat. Some appear to have been selected for killing, while other POWs were left unharmed. The description of the incidents does not give any basis for the selection of some POWs for interrogation and execution, while other POWs were not.
Absolutely. It gets back to my point about how in several campaigns - the May 1940 invasion of France, Normandy 1944 and the Battle of the Bulge, some (but not all) Waffen-SS units, while engaged in an offensive, would execute some (but not all) POWs soon after combat. The accounts of the incidents are sometimes maddeningly arbitrary but all point to scenarios in which an option was always on the table for a W-SS commander on the spot to shoot POWs at the cessation of combat and after the prisoners had been disarmed and collected. The question then becomes: Were such actions a reflection of Waffen-SS tactical SOP (standard operating procedure), the result of "take no prisoner" orders from superiors or just merely the whims of the unit commander?

As for why certain Canadian POWs were selected for interrogation and then summary execution, we don't know if it was a random selection or if there was some method to the selection (e.g. chosing soldiers from a certain unit, a certain rank, etc.) The SS soldiers that did the selecting didn't explain their choices.

A smaller number seem to have been individually killed on the battlefield, perhaps while trying to surrender. That would seem to be the case at the combat at le Mesnil-Patry on 11 June, and perhaps at Mouen on 17 June.
Possibly. The le Mesnil-Patry tank battle was certainly a "fluid" sitiation in which a Canadian exiting a disabled Sherman with his hands up could have been zapped by an SS trooper. The fact that both sides permitting ambulances to enter the combat area certainly lends credence to this type of "fluidity." However, you'd have to refer back to the Margolian book and the original depositions taken by Canadian survivors of the battle.

However, before we assume that Canadian troops were just mistakenly killed during combat while attempting to surrender, I'd like to point out that the Canadian investigators seemingly only investigated incidents in which Canadian POWs were clearly murdered after the cessation of local combat and based their research on the accounts from Canadian survivors and former SS troopers.
The killing of 37 POWs at Authie seems to have taken place during or immediately after a battle, and was possibly a case of German troops going on a rampage in a state of rage and high excitement during and after a battle, without any orders to kill prisoners having been given.
I can't remember exactly, but I believe the CO of the III/SS-PGR 25 came under scrutiny for the actions of his men that day. Certainly the fact that SS troops dragged wounded Canadians into the street to be run over by Panthers and half-tracks was pretty despicable. I believe the testimony of an SS officer intervening in saving a Canadian POW or POWs came from a Canadian, although I don't think the officer who actually enacted this tiny bit of humanity was ever identified.
It does not appear that there was any general policy on the part of the leadership of the "Hitlerjugend" Division to kill their prisoners.
Thein lies the rub - was there an order to take no prisoners? It became (and to some extent still is) a controverial subject during "Panzer" Meyer's trial. Some testimony during the postwar trial indicated that there was - at least a verbal order. As far back as April 1944 12th SS commanders were telling there troops in essence "we don't take prisoners." However, some 12th SS units did take POWs on (some) days. Again, it's all maddeningly arbitrary to a degree. There were multiple incidents of multiple 12th SS officer shooting POWs in a two-week period, and then the incidents stopped. Given the multiple incidents involving multiple officer in a compact time span - if it wasn't a general policy, it was a general practice.
The accounts suggest that the executions behind the lines and away from the battlefirled for the initiative of individual officers (including the commander), while other officers opposed the summary executions and tried to prevent or stop them.
Certainy the evidency and testimony at the trial didn't paint "Panzer" Meyer in a good light. The fact that Canadian POWs were murdered right in his regimental HQ soon after interrogation was damning.

Mohnke, also, clearly was homicidal to the point where his capabilities for command were questioned by his fellow officers. He was, interestingly enough, also responsible for the massacre of British POWs at Wormhoudt, France during the 1940 campaign. He never went to trial for either incident and died peacefully in his bed.

Again, the existence of a "take no prisoners" order is still debated. However, what is obvious is that the cadre of committed Nazi's within the division - Mohnke, "Panzer" Meyer and a couple others - seemed more willing to execute Canadian POWs as a matter of course.


All in all, it does not seem to me that one can speak of atrocities committed by the "Hitlerjugend" Division as a whole or as a unit.
However, no other German unit that engaged the Canadians - the Panzer Lehr for example - committed atrocites on the scale and savagery of the 12th SS.

Rather, there were atrocities committed or ordered by individual officers of the division, which other officers opposed and tried to prevent. Other killings were perpetrated by groups of members of the division enraged by recent combat. According to Chief of Staff Hubert Meyer, there were no standing orders to execute prisoners.
I think we have to remember that the account of Hubert Meyer reminding fellow officers to abide to the Geneva Convention comes from - Hubert Meyer. He just as easily could of said "OK, shoot the prisoners" and we'd be none the wiser for it. History isn't always written by the victors.
There seems to me to be no reason for taking the acts of those officers and soldiers of the division who committed atrocities as more representative of the nature of the "Hitlerjugend" Division as a whole than the actions of those officers who opposed and tried to stop the atrocities. Perhaps II Battalion CO Siebken should be seen as being as much representative of the mentality of the division as Regimental CO Mohnke.
Not really. Both Meyer and Mohnke ordered their subordinates to kill prisoners, and they did. The Nazi ethos triumphed over the "better angles of their nature" as far as Hitlerjugend officers and Canadian POWs were concerned.

User avatar
Imad
Member
Posts: 1412
Joined: 21 Nov 2004, 04:15
Location: Toronto

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#14

Post by Imad » 23 May 2009, 13:15

If he told his son privately, how did you come by that knowledge?
Because the incident is recorded in a book written by Harry Foster's son called "Meeting of the Generals".
Imad, are you alleging that General Foster himself thought the war crimes procedings a sham?
I'm not alleging anything. I'm just repeating what the general told his son regarding his view of the proceedings, viz., that the only reason Panzermeyer was on trial was that he was on the losing side and if the situation were reversed there would have been Allied officers on the dock instead.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: War crimes of 12 SS HitlerJugend in Normandy

#15

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 23 May 2009, 14:45

I'm not alleging anything. I'm just repeating what the general told his son regarding his view of the proceedings, viz., that the only reason Panzermeyer was on trial was that he was on the losing side and if the situation were reversed there would have been Allied officers on the dock instead.
I haven't read the book.

I wasn't able to find a review online on amazon.com Meeting of the Generals, but I did find a interesting historiography at Timothy John Balzer's dissertation The Information Front: The Canadian Army, Public Relations, and War
News during the Second World War
(see - https://dspace.library.uvic.ca:8443/dsp ... 202009.pdf )
The Valour and the Horror: In Desperate Battle, dir. Brian McKenna, Galafilm, 1992, argued that the
Canadians committed similar war crimes to the SS, citing Jacques Dextrase’s description of German
prisoners forced to swim a river and some drowning, and the alleged issuing of Canadian “no prisoners”
orders. They also claimed that SS troops “were often retaliating,” against Canadian killings. While the
program caused controversy, the allegations are not new. Alexander McKee in Caen the Anvil of Victory
(London, Souvenir, 1964), 86, 199-204, portrays the Canadians as frequently killing prisoners and states
that a notebook of a dead Canadian officer ordered no prisoners taken. Tony Foster’s popular account
Meeting of the Generals (Toronto: Methuen, 1986), 313, 322-323, 350,352-3, shows surprising levels of
sympathy for Meyer and the Hitler Youth, being replete with claims of Canadians killing prisoners. Foster
recognizes some of Meyer’s claims, such as the troops at the Abbey Ardennes knowing about Canadian
atrocities, to be untrue and self serving, yet uncritically accepts other undocumented SS justifications at
face value.
P. Whitney Lackenbauer's online PhD dissertation
Kurt Meyer, 12th SS Panzer Division, and the Murder of Canadian Prisoners of War in Normandy: An Historical and Historiographical Appraisal
(http://grad.usask.ca/gateway/archive9.html) comments on Meeting of the Generals at length:
The interpretations offered by D'Este and Hastings were indicative of a new stream of thought emerging in military history. The Second World War was now forty years in the past and could be subjected to more 'objective' scrutiny that placed both Allied and Axis forces under the microscope. Perhaps this was the outgrowth of a post-Vietnam mindset, where the lines between the good, pure cause and the evil one had been blurred. Whatever the cause, Canadian amateur historians and journalists began to pursue similar themes and adopted more relativist stances.

In 1986, Tony Foster's Meeting of Generals hit bookstores.[30] Foster produced what amounted to a dual biography of his father, Major-General Harry Foster, and Meyer. From childhood to death he described their formative experiences, prewar and on the battlefield. The author strove to draw parallels between the evolution of the two men, to show that they were not dissimilar from one another. The essence of his study was embodied in a quote taken from his father, Harry, who after the war reflected on the sentiments he felt during the Meyer trial:
There was an irony to this whole distasteful affair. . . Not because of what had happened to my men - that was inexcusable. What struck me as I sat in my comfortable chair looking down at this hardnosed Nazi was that not one of us sitting on the bench, with the exception of Lieutenant Colonel W. D. Bredin, could claim clean hands in the matter of war crimes or atrocities or whatever you want to call them. It hadn't all been one-sided. Our troops did some pretty dreadful things to the Germans. Didn't that make all of us who were commanding officers just as guilty as Meyer? I remember thinking all the time: you poor arrogant bastard. Except for an accident of birth and background our positions might have been reversed. In which case I would now be standing before you asking for justice at this meeting of generals.[31]
In this context, the dust jacket suggested that the book was a uniquely dispassionate examination on the tragedy of men, women, and children on opposing sides in a war. The men, women and children discussed were not the men murdered by the 12th SS in Normandy or their families, but Meyer and Foster and their families.

Meeting of Generals was typical of the revisionist/relativist current. The author suggested that, during the trial, his father had pangs of guilt and questions about the validity of war crimes tribunals given the realities of battle and his own unsavoury exploits on the battlefield. However, in his chapter on the Meyer trial, The Flags Are Folded, he neglects to mention his father's public response to Vokes decision to commute Meyer's sentence. On 16 January 1946, Harry Foster issued a press statement in which he unequivocally suggested that "The best thing to do would be to shoot Meyer." He was subsequently called before his senior officers for having made such a bold assertion in direct contradiction to the action of Vokes, the convening officer and Foster's superior officer in the matter. Furthermore, when Foster was asked in Ottawa whether or not Canadian troops had ever shot German prisoners, he heatedly denied such accusations (to borrow the words of the Winnipeg Free Press). In fact, one Manitoban applauded Foster for having the courage to stand for the right, regardless of the political axe that might lop off his head afterwards.[32] These strongly expressed sentiments, frank and controversial, hardly correspond with Tony Foster's characterization of his father's beliefs. If anything, they demonstrate the selectivity the author used to draw comparisons between his father and Meyer.

From an historical standpoint the book left much to be desired. Although the study was based on the personal war diaries and memories of Meyer and Foster, archival material, trial transcripts, and interviews conducted by the author in Canada and Western Europe, Foster did not provide the reader with many endnotes on the sources of his material, so validation of his evidence and assessment of his interpretations is somewhat difficult. The author also felt the need to create hypothetical conversations between the various actors in his drama. Certainly this allowed him to show the reader nuances that could not have been derived from the existing archival materials; it also meant that historical accuracy was not his chief priority. Foster also made some very dubious claims. For example, the author suggested that the Canadian Army was so in awe of Meyer's talents as a tactician that he was "spirited out" of Dorechester Penitentiary, disguised as a Canadian lieutenant, and joined a syndicate of Canadian officers planning for defensive measures in the Yukon. Although the author claimed to have conversed with Major-General Kitching about the incident, the latter denied having ever spoken with the author on the matter. Reginald Roy noted in a review of the book that this was just one of many assertions Foster made without substantiating documentary evidence; as such, he advised that the book "should be taken with a cupfull of salt."[33]
Overall, it doesn't sound like Tony Foster's work should be considered one of the better sources on the subject of war crimes of the 12th SS.

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”