Bleiburg Memorial

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michael mills
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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#76

Post by michael mills » 01 Jun 2009, 13:06

There was continuity between the pre-war Yugoslavia and post-war Yugoslavia. The British pressured the Yugoslav government in exile into a notional governmental coalition with the Partisans in mid 1944. (In that coalition, if I remember rightly, the prime minister was a Croat.) This governmental coalition was never effective (the Communists made sure of that) but it did provide legal continuity between pre- and post-war Yugoslavia.
Yes, the Prime Minister was Ivan Subasic, who from 1939 to 1941 had been the Ban of Croatia, under the agreement (sporazum) whereby the Royal Government of Yugoslavia recognised an autonomous Banovina of Croatia comprising the historical territories of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia, plus parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina inhabited by ethnic Croats.

Subasic was not a Croatian nationalist, but rather a supporter of the Yugoslav Idea (which had been developed primarily by Croats and Serbs living in the Habsburg Empire, not by the rulers of Serbia). He had fought in the Serbian Army during the First World War, and for that reason was acceptable to Prince Paul, the Regent of Yugloslavia, as a ruler of an autonomous Croatia.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#77

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 Jun 2009, 07:37

The original article that Janak1929 posted at the beginning of the this thread about Bleiburg was apparently written by Suzanne Brooks-Pincevic, author of

Britain and the Bleiburg Tragedy: An Artist's Impression ( ISBN 0473052725 (0-473-05272-5)

and originally posted at http://amac.hrvati-amac.com/index.php?o ... &Itemid=84

There is some information about Bozo Vukusic (apparently a Croatian journalist or intellectual who is considered somewhat of an apostate from the politically-correct Croatian extreme-nationalist canon) at the "Za Dom Spremmi" website at http://www.freewebs.com/zadomspremni/truth6.htm

Sid wrote
The main problem in discussing Bleiburg is that it has become a totem for more extreme Croatian nationalists whose emotional commitment to their cause is such that they cannot relinquish unlikely higher figures and are determined to blame even those only peripherally involved, such as the British, for what was an undoubted Yugoslav Communist crime.
My point is simply this: Nobody seriously argues that there weren't mass deaths of Croats at the hands of Yugoslav Communists. However, this is going to get obscured in diversionary arguments if implausibly high figures are presented or the focus is shifted onto secondary parties.
The basic facts are that a large number of Croats were killed by Yugoslav Communists but we don't yet have a precise figure. However, we can say that half a million is improbably high because censuis material doesn't support it..
Which are all cogent observations.

Some additional writings from C. Michael McAdams about WWII Croatian "myths and realities" are at http://www.mcadams-croatia.net/myth/index.htm

Couple of Junak1929's points I wanted to comment on:

Junak stated that McAdams was a Harvard scholar, which is incorrect. McAdams attended UoP (University of the Pacific), John Carroll University and U Colorado. He taught at the UCSF extension campus at Sacramento, CA, before retiring in 2000 (see http://www.mcadams-croatia.net/biography.htm)
Well, I know for a fact that the Independent State of Croatia was a signatory. Obviously something is fishy with these lists considering the fact that there was no such "serbian republic" at that time as you mentioned.
As I mentioned, "v2.0" of Croatia is a signatory, but "v1.0" (the NDH regime of WWII) was not. I think the International Committee of the Red Cross is pretty much as authoritative a source as one can get on international humanitarian treaties.


David Thompson mentioned that by July 1945 the US Army ended the practice of automatically repatriating surrendered troops/displaced persons from Yugoslavia. Having just finished Operation Keelhaul The Story of Forced Repatriation I wanted to point out that prior to that the US Army classified members of Axis armed forces or nationalities serving in the Wehrmacht as candidates for deportation. I also wanted to point out that Epsein's book mentions that Austria continued to deport Yugoslav nationals into the 1950's, viewing them as economic rather than political refugees.
However the HDZ and the Tudman administration played their cards right. The serbocommunist propaganda machine was 60 years ahead of any Croat anywhere in the world, the Milosevic regime started to frighten the Serbs in the Krajina region with all these tall tales about an Ustasa revival...
What does this have to do with Bleiburg? We keep confusing events in the 1990's with the events of 1945.

Every year more and more Croatian youth are found at Bleigburg, these kids, even the girl in the photo who I personally know are not nazis or antisemites etc.
They are just pro-Croatian kids who see parallels between their grandfather's battle and the battle of their fathers in the 90s
But they wear black clothing with Ustase insignia that for many people are affiliated with fascism, intolerance and genocide. Surely you can admit that some people have a negative impression of such symbolism.

yes people do openly wear Ustasa symbols - I would have too if I was there. To me that symbolizes that that very fight won out - even though Bleiburg certainly did occur and effected almost every other Croatian one way or another, the fact that a Croatia exists - the main principle of the Ustasa movement, and the fact that young people live in a democratic society in which they can honor their forefathers however they please, to me is an accomplishment from the dark tito-era.
It seems illogical to me to wear the insignia of a racist authoritarian WWII Axis puppet regime as a symbol of the victory of a moden-day democratic country.


As I mentioned, recently the current President of Croatia called the Bleiburg rally an "Ustase orgy"

http://oslobodjenje.ba/index.php?id=599


there's an interesting comment from a poster at the B92 website (see http://www.b92.net/eng/news/comments.php?nav_id=59435) with the comment
And you have to like Mesic's comments on a Ustasa orgy. He may be an idiot on other issues but he is one of the few politicians in Croatian with the guts to face down the extreme right wing.
I believe some of Mesic's relatives may have been killed by the Ustase during the war.


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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#78

Post by michael mills » 02 Jun 2009, 10:25

I found the following information about Mesic in the Wikipedia article about him. I cannot vouch for its accuracy.
In December 2006, a controversy arose when a video was published which showed Mesić during a speech in Australia in the early 1990s, where he said that the Croats "won a victory on April 10th" (when the fascist Independent State of Croatia was formed) "as well as in 1945" (when the anti-fascists prevailed and the Socialist Republic of Croatia was formed), as well as that Croatia needs to apologize to no one for the Jasenovac concentration camp (i.e. the WWII Holocaust against Serbs and Jews).[8]

Mesić sparked controversy on the issue of the Independent State of Croatia on another occasion during a speech in which he claimed that not all Croats fighting for the Independent State of Croatia were Ustase supporters and claims that in fact most were fighting legitimately for Croatian independence.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stipe_Mesic#cite_note-7

It appears that Mesic is something of an opportunist. He was not one of those who were pushing for Croatian independence in 1991, and seems to have been seeking a career in a united Yugoslavia. However, once Croatia declared its independence under Tudjman, he quickly jumped aboard the bandwagon, and seems to have adopted a rather nationalist position. More recently he has abandoned nationalism for a position more pleasing to the West.

However, his statement that all not all the Croats fighting for the NDH were supporters of the Ustase but rather were fighting for Croatian independence seems to me to be eminently fair and historically true. In that sense, the NDH can be seen as a forerunner of the present independent Croatian state, despite the nature of the regime that ruled it.

One wonders what would have happened if the Croatian Peasant party leader, Vladko Macek, had accepted the German offer to be the head of an independent Croatian state. If he had, the NDH might well have been the sort of conservative authoritarian but non-fascist state that Hungary was under Horthy. After all, the Germans did not insist on inflicting fascist regimes on their allies; their interest was in having a stable, reliable regime in place that would do their bidding in relation to foreign policy. If Macek had headed a Croatian government allied to the Axis, it would not have been tainted with the suspicion of being an Italian puppet, as Pavelic and the Ustasa were.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#79

Post by Zimmerwald » 16 Aug 2009, 03:50

This mythologizing of the retaliatory punishment carried out against Croatia's quisling forces is a rather dangerous attempt to rehabilitate the villains of the conflict i.e. the Ustashi while at the same time demonizing those victimized by their genocidal rampage e.g. Partisans and Serbs. The Ustashi have solely themselves to blame for their refusal to abide by the terms set by the Yugoslavian territories. Had they peacefully surrendered, then there would not have been the need to punish them.

As Jozo Tomosaevic explains, The Croatian quislings had to immediately stop their armed rebellion by May 8, 1945 as the stipulations of the unconditional German surrender called for. But as late as 14 May 1945, the quisling troops continued their armed struggle against the Yugoslavian forces and fought to keep escape routes open. They refused to surrender and disarm. When Pavelić left Zagreb on May 6, he intended to join his gang in Austria. The first and last order that he gave was for his bands not to surrender to the Yugoslavian authorities, but to escape to Austria.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#80

Post by David Thompson » 16 Aug 2009, 06:46


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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#81

Post by Junak1929 » 01 Dec 2009, 21:20

I lost track of this thread and have some things to add.
There is some information about Bozo Vukusic (apparently a Croatian journalist or intellectual who is considered somewhat of an apostate from the politically-correct Croatian extreme-nationalist canon) at the "Za Dom Spremmi" website at http://www.freewebs.com/zadomspremni/truth6.htm

Sid wrote
Apostate is an understatement. Bozo Vukusic is a pawn of Croatian political forces from Croatia. He was sent into the PBV, Pocasni Bleiburski Vod as a nobody and went up the ranks, stealing money and funneling some to unknown pockets and to various Croatian politicians. His political agenda was most definitely defined when he changed the wording on the Bleiburg monument from "Fallen CROATIAN armed forces" to "Victims of the Bleiburg Tragedy". Thankfully it has been changed back.

As I mentioned, "v2.0" of Croatia is a signatory, but "v1.0" (the NDH regime of WWII) was not. I think the International Committee of the Red Cross is pretty much as authoritative a source as one can get on international humanitarian treaties.
Wrong again, the NDH signed in 1943. You read Operation Keelhaul didn't you?
But they wear black clothing with Ustase insignia that for many people are affiliated with fascism, intolerance and genocide. Surely you can admit that some people have a negative impression of such symbolism.
People who have a negative impression of such symbolism don't know anything about it. Such symbolism does not represent either of the mentioned, most certainly not to anyone who wears it with pride. Symbols are symbols, they can mean many different things to many different people.
It seems illogical to me to wear the insignia of a racist authoritarian WWII Axis puppet regime as a symbol of the victory of a moden-day democratic country.

Two parts: NDH was not racist or a 'puppet'. The symbolism represents something much greater rather than entities and politics, it represents the struggle, the fight of the generation that finally stood up to foreign rule and followed the path of Starcevic, Kvatrenik and the Rakovica revolt. The Ustasa fight was not 1941-1945, it was 1840 - 1995. The fight for a independent Croatia. Today, many Croatians, who most likely became Croatian over night would say the same thing as you or would say that the Ustasa movement doesn't have a monopoly over the idea of Croatian independence. The fact of the matter is that in reality - such symbolism represents one side of Croaitans that were always fighting for Croatian independence in modern Croatian history.

The "father of Croatia" is Dr. Ante Starcevic, who was swayed by Liberalism, Romantisism, and Nationalism that was occurring in Europe. Before him, the first stage of Croatian national revival was within the Ilyrian movement which had two dimensions: a Croatian one and a Slavic one. Croatian since it advocated for Croatian autonomy, Slavic since it was willing to cooperate with other Slavic or Slavic speaking peoples. Eventually that would divide, and nationalism as it stands today in Croatia, came to be under Starcevic. From there on in, up until 1929, the only true advocates of Croatian independence were the followers of Starcevic. Later the Ustasa movement would be formed under the same notions, but would fight physically for their goals. When they established the dreams of previous generations, they went down in history, there is no doubt about that. Now there were two sides, people who were for Croatia, and people who were against. After the war, the people who were for Croatia, kep fighting, and the NDH was their only notion of freedom, later even Croatian communists who were fooled partisans or the sons of the same, would join the fight.

Today, such symbolism represents Croatian continuity, people are proud of their families who didn't switch sides, who always fought for Croatia, not for a type of government or an international political ideology, purely a Croatian state, whilst there are thousnads living today, who were completely against such, but today are big Croats profiting off of Croatia.
As I mentioned, recently the current President of Croatia called the Bleiburg rally an "Ustase orgy"
Such ignorant vocabulary can only come from the idiot of idiots. Who is going to commemorate Bleibrug if not the generations tied to the people who died there? Mesic and the other communists? Are they the ones going?

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#82

Post by Junak1929 » 01 Dec 2009, 21:25

It appears that Mesic is something of an opportunist. He was not one of those who were pushing for Croatian independence in 1991, and seems to have been seeking a career in a united Yugoslavia. However, once Croatia declared its independence under Tudjman, he quickly jumped aboard the bandwagon, and seems to have adopted a rather nationalist position. More recently he has abandoned nationalism for a position more pleasing to the West.
"Croatians were victorious on the 10 of April" (the day the NDH was proclaimed)
"Croatians have nothing to apologize for" - in regards to Jasenovac
-Mesic's speech in the early 90s to Croatian emigrees in Australia. You can watch the videos on youtube, you can also see him accepting checks for over 100 thousand dollars "for Croatia" from Croatian emigree circles.
Today he worships tito and yugoslavia. There is an old Croatian proverb which states, "A wolf changes it's fur but never it's mind/thinking".
One wonders what would have happened if the Croatian Peasant party leader, Vladko Macek, had accepted the German offer to be the head of an independent Croatian state. If he had, the NDH might well have been the sort of conservative authoritarian but non-fascist state that Hungary was under Horthy. After all, the Germans did not insist on inflicting fascist regimes on their allies; their interest was in having a stable, reliable regime in place that would do their bidding in relation to foreign policy. If Macek had headed a Croatian government allied to the Axis, it would not have been tainted with the suspicion of being an Italian puppet, as Pavelic and the Ustasa were.
Vladko Macek was a spineless self-proclaimed yugoslav. NDH was run by Croatians of all political colors, including some of Macek's right hand men. The Croatian government of NDH was not fascist, nor was it an Italian puppet, note Italy capitulated in 1943.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#83

Post by Junak1929 » 01 Dec 2009, 21:29

Zimmerwald wrote:This mythologizing of the retaliatory punishment carried out against Croatia's quisling forces is a rather dangerous attempt to rehabilitate the villains of the conflict i.e. the Ustashi while at the same time demonizing those victimized by their genocidal rampage e.g. Partisans and Serbs. The Ustashi have solely themselves to blame for their refusal to abide by the terms set by the Yugoslavian territories. Had they peacefully surrendered, then there would not have been the need to punish them.

As Jozo Tomosaevic explains, The Croatian quislings had to immediately stop their armed rebellion by May 8, 1945 as the stipulations of the unconditional German surrender called for. But as late as 14 May 1945, the quisling troops continued their armed struggle against the Yugoslavian forces and fought to keep escape routes open. They refused to surrender and disarm. When Pavelić left Zagreb on May 6, he intended to join his gang in Austria. The first and last order that he gave was for his bands not to surrender to the Yugoslavian authorities, but to escape to Austria.
The mythologizing? Against Croatian quisling forces? Hundreds of thousands of civilians, men women and children are 'quisling forces'? A disarmmed and surrendered army are quisling forces? This is despicable and disgusting white-washing. Croatians disarmed and surrendered - to the British - and were handed over to titos communist forces who slaughtered them and tortured them like pigs up until the 50s. Peaceful surrender.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#84

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 02 Dec 2009, 07:08

Wrong again, the NDH signed in 1943. You read Operation Keelhaul didn't you?
Yep. As far as I can remember, there's no mention of the NDH signing any international treaties.

As I wrote before:
The International Committee of the Red Cross maintains a website covering all the details of the various international law treaties concerning armed conflict. The list of the 53 countries that signed and ratified the 1929 Geneva Conventions (the international laws in effect during WWII) are at http://www.cicr.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?Rea ... d=305&ps=P
The nine countries that signed but did not ratify the treaty are at http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/WebSign?Rea ... d=305&ps=S
NDH Croatia ain't on the list.

If you want to see the list of international treaties Croatia has ever signed, see http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/Pays?ReadForm&c=HR

If you want to see what international treaties Croatia is currently bound to, see the PDF at http://www.cicr.org/ihl

In fact, as far as I can ascertain NOBODY signed an international treaty in 1943.

You can keep typing that it's true, but you have to put up some facts to back your claims.
People who have a negative impression of such symbolism don't know anything about it. Such symbolism does not represent either of the mentioned, most certainly not to anyone who wears it with pride. Symbols are symbols, they can mean many different things to many different people.
Deny it all you want; the fact irrefutably remains that for many people Ustase symbols are indelibly associated with fascism, intolerance and genocide.
Two parts: NDH was not racist or a 'puppet'.
Part 1: NDH Croatia was racist:
Legal Decree on Racial Origins (Zakonska odredba o rasnoj pripadnosti) - April 1941

Legal Decree on the Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honour of the Croatian People (Zakonska odredba o zaštiti arijske krvi i časti hrvatskog naroda) - April 1941

Legal Decree on the Nationalization of the Property of Jews and Jewish Companies - Oct 1941

Perhaps you can transcribe for us p.326 of The Holocaust: roots, history, and aftermath By David Crowe at http://books.google.com/books?id=LB_HLH ... q=&f=false

Part 2: "...‘As President of the Republic of Croatia, I profoundly and sincerely regret the crimes committed against Jews during the Second World War, on the territory of the Quisling- entity known as the Independent State of Croatia that was neither independent, nor Croatian.' - Mr. Stipe Mesic, President of the Republic of Croatia, in a speech to the Knesset, Oct 2001. (see http://www.holocausttaskforce.org/educa ... eport.html)

# Independent State of Croatia (1941–1945) - The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska or NDH) was a German and Italian puppet régime. On paper, the NDH was a kingdom under King Tomislav II (Aimone, Duke of Spoleto) of the House of Savoy, but Tomislav II was only a figurehead in Croatia who never exercised any real power, with Ante Pavelić being a somewhat independent leader ("poglavnik"), though staying obedient to Rome and Berlin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_sta ... alian_rule

The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH) was a Nazi/ Fascist puppet state in World War II.
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Indepen ... roatia.htm

International macroeconomics experts, the President of Croatia, and wikipedia (among others od infinitum) call NDH Croatia a puppet state. You don't. Go figure.
The symbolism represents something much greater rather than entities and politics, it represents the struggle, the fight of the generation that finally stood up to foreign rule...but today are big Croats profiting off of Croatia.
All this Blut und Boden rebop is tiresome.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#85

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 08:45

NDH Croatia ain't on the list.

If you want to see the list of international treaties Croatia has ever signed, see http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/Pays?ReadForm&c=HR

If you want to see what international treaties Croatia is currently bound to, see the PDF at http://www.cicr.org/ihl

In fact, as far as I can ascertain NOBODY signed an international treaty in 1943.

You can keep typing that it's true, but you have to put up some facts to back your claims.
Croatia did not sign treaties before 1941 or after 1945 until 1990. Croatia was not an independent international participant.

The NDH became a signatory of the Geneva Conventions in January of 1943.
You even cited a wiki article which - if you were to actually read it - says that in it, and is sourced, not once but twice;

After the NDH signed the Geneva Conventions in 1943, the International Committee of the Red Cross named Julius Schmidlin as its representative to the country.[82]

The Independent State of Croatia signed the Geneva Conventions on January 20, 1943.[29]

Sources:
Main article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independen ... te_note-29
References to mentioned: http://www.pravnadatoteka.hr/pdf/Kaznen ... locina.pdf
And:
Kevo, Mario. Posjet poslanika Međunarodnog odbora Crvenog križa logorima Jasenovac i Stara Gradiška u ljeto 1944.

So, you're simply wrong.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#86

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 08:47

Deny it all you want; the fact irrefutably remains that for many people Ustase symbols are indelibly associated with fascism, intolerance and genocide.
I'm not denying anything. Most people that think they know anything about NDH summarize it using the above three mentioned words - and those people are incorrect.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#87

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 08:53

Part 1: NDH Croatia was racist:
Legal Decree on Racial Origins (Zakonska odredba o rasnoj pripadnosti) - April 1941

Legal Decree on the Protection of Aryan Blood and the Honour of the Croatian People (Zakonska odredba o zaštiti arijske krvi i časti hrvatskog naroda) - April 1941

Legal Decree on the Nationalization of the Property of Jews and Jewish Companies - Oct 1941
The Racial Legislation in Croatia differentiated from others in accordance with the very last few points of the mentioned which allowed Croatia to give honorary status to many people. This is being researched at the moment by a Jewish historian named Esther Gitman.

Realistically speaking, Croatia passed such laws in order to gain faster recognition as an independent participant amongst the Axis nations, initially to pull away from Italy and get closer to Germany. There is no need to highlight the obvious atrocities and unfair diplomacy Italy was partaking in the initial days of NDH, Hitler even acknowledges such in his "Table Talk". This however, the mentioned and the discussion in regards to the Racial policy in NDH is a whole other discussion.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#88

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 08:54

Part 2: "...‘As President of the Republic of Croatia, I profoundly and sincerely regret the crimes committed against Jews during the Second World War, on the territory of the Quisling- entity known as the Independent State of Croatia that was neither independent, nor Croatian.' - Mr. Stipe Mesic, President of the Republic of Croatia, in a speech to the Knesset, Oct 2001
The same Stipe Mesic used to sing Ustasa songs and there's a clip of him saying how Croatians were victorious on the 10th of April, see youtube. He's an opportunist and a politician.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#89

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 08:59

# Independent State of Croatia (1941–1945) - The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska or NDH) was a German and Italian puppet régime. On paper, the NDH was a kingdom under King Tomislav II (Aimone, Duke of Spoleto) of the House of Savoy, but Tomislav II was only a figurehead in Croatia who never exercised any real power, with Ante Pavelić being a somewhat independent leader ("poglavnik"), though staying obedient to Rome and Berlin.
Italy capitulated in 1943. Germany had no territorial interest in Croatia, only stability interest.
International macroeconomics experts, the President of Croatia, and wikipedia (among others od infinitum) call NDH Croatia a puppet state. You don't. Go figure.
Wikipedia can be edited by anyone and is created out of general consensus regarding available sources etc. View the discussion pages and view the same articles in various different languages and you will see vary large differences. There's actually a very large discussion on the NDH discussion page on wikipedia about referring to it as a "puppet" which is not a neutral term at all - an encyclopedic entry should be neutral. The President of Croatia considers Tito to be a great man, was a former communist, the last president of yugoslavia and once used to praise NDH for political gain. I bet if you gave him a thousand bucks he'd sing God Save the Queen in Swahili.

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Re: Bleiburg Memorial

#90

Post by Junak1929 » 02 Dec 2009, 09:09

The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH) was a Nazi/ Fascist puppet state in World War II.
I find it astonishing to believe that people who are actually interested in history, who find themselves on this forum, and have some western academic backing - can read things like that and say. Yup. Sounds right. For some reason, other minor axis nations have escaped such labeling - NDH most certainly being the most nominal and independent of all the minor Axis nations - yet Croatia does not. There are people in America who are nationalists, there are people there, asi n any country, who spin parts of history to push some racist or self-proclaimed (and public) fascist agenda - but for some reason, Croatians seem to be the only Nazis and Fascists on the planet. Give me a break :roll:

And the whole "you don't, figures". I love my country man, I love truth, there is only one, and justice - freedom, everything the free and democratic world stands for today. If someone did wrong, say in NDH, I am willing to admit to that. Were there individuals who committed crimes? Does a war occur without any crime? To say that Croatians had a choice, to say that the Ustasa movement even had a choice (to pick a side), is ridiculous. To examine the whole era, one must see it in context. I am not rehabilitating anything, the Ustasa movement is gone, and I love democracy and today's Republic of Croatia - I'm interested in history. So please spare me of the accusations, the indirect ad hominems.

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