Frankolovo

[Marcus]

Any ideas were the person who wrote the Wikipedia page on Frankolovo got the idea that a million hostages were killed in Slovenia in February 1945?

Frankolovo crime is one of the worst Nazi war crimes in the territory of present Slovenia during World War II. On February 12, 1945 members of Wehrmacht killed a million Slovene civilians at Graben (»ditch«) in Stranice near Frankolovo.
The crime was committed as revenge for a Slovene partisan's ambush in Tesno gorge, when on February 2, 1945 one of the most important local Nazi officers Anton Dorfmeister was mortally wounded, dying the next day in Celje hospital.
As a revenge for his life, Nazis gathered a million hostages from prisons of Maribor, Celje, and Trbovlje and hung them on trees along the road.

/Marcus

[David Thompson]

I have no idea who wrote the wikipedia entry, but I think the number of 1,000,000 dead is exaggerated:

That afternoon we visited the Francolova monument at Stranice. Here 100 political prisoners and partisans were hanged from apple trees in reprisal for the killing of a Nazi general and the district commander.

http://www.sedbergh.org.uk/twinning/school/feb2007.html

[TISO]

I live nearby the spot of this crime (about 10km down the road). The number is 100 of hostages hanged. They were brought from Celje (Cilli) prison known as "Stari pisker" (eng. Old pot). There are some stories that actual number is 99 i.e. that 1got away but i doubt it. The spot itself is on the road Celje (Cilli)- Slovenske Konjice (Gonowitz) between at the time villages Frankolovo and Stranice.
Probably some other poster from slovenia know more about this.
Writer probably wrongly re typed from his probably secondary source.

[michael mills]

This strikes me as a genuine reprisal action, rather than as an atrocity against innocent civilians.

The persons executed were not innocent people rounded up at random, but were persons who had already committed offences against the german occupiers, ie they were partisans or political prisoners, being held in prison. Thus, they could be legitimately regarded as hostages and suitable subjects for reprisal action in retaliation for acts of terrorism by insurgents.

One might quibble about the large number of hostages executed, but apart from that the executions would seem to have reasonably in accord with the relevant rules of land warfare, which permitted reprisal actions under certain circumstances.

[bf109 emil]

One might quibble about the large number of hostages executed, but apart from that the executions would seem to have reasonably in accord with the relevant rules of land warfare, which permitted reprisal actions under certain circumstances.

can you source the rules of warfare that permit the execution of a 100 people as being legal and permitting justification in the rules of land warfare

[Jan-Hendrik]

Killing hostages in a quota of 1:10 was at least at Nürnberg not rated as a war crime...as the Alliies took this a a commun rule of warfare, too

Jan-Hendrik

[bf109 emil]

Killing hostages in a quota of 1:10 was at least at Nürnberg not rated as a war crime...as the Alliies took this a a commun rule of warfare, too

Jan-Hendrik

yes and as i asked is their a source in the rules of warfare as to killing a 100 as a reprisal legal in accord with the relevant rules of land warfare and where it states this rule...regardless whether it was accepted at Nuremberg or scene as a common occurrence! does not make it a rule now does it! as I have never read this source or reference in the rules of warfare justifying the killing of a 100 for the reprisal of 1 as stated was justified and legal under the rules of warfare

again can one source this rule? or can you even quote where in Nurenberg a 10:1 ratio was not a war rated a war crime...this I have IIRC read, but no where near a 100 to 1

1907 Hague conference article 50 statesArticle 50
"No general penalty. pecuniary or otherwise. shall be
inflicted upon the population on account of the acts
of ' individuals for which they cannot be regarded as
jointly and severally responsible."

as these prisoners even tried and imprisoned for crimes and however being in prison some 10 KM away could not have been jointly and severally responsible so the killing of these where against the rules of warfare...which does indeed make this an atrocity and not a legal retribution

[Jan-Hendrik]

So far we have no sufficsent information what really had happened there...so it is pure speculation to say there was a 1:100-case committted here.

Jan-Hendrik

[bf109 emil]

yes i guess it wasn't or proven to be a 100, but i still haven't found where 10:1 is legal either...I did find an order telling the Wehrmacht to commit acts which where illegal under the Hague rules of warfare although on the Eastern front...I suppose the soldiers where just doing as told and following orders as seemed the case in any war crime no matter what side, although a written order does look more incriminating then say an isolated instance!
although this maybe a reprisal action and German soldiers where just following the orders handed to them and so in there eyes where only doing as ordered on 13 May 1941 from the Fuehrer's headquarters and signed by Keitel...In Part 1 with respect to the treatment of offenses caused by enemy civilians in the Eastern area of operation, items 3 states: "Likewise all attacks by enemy civilians on the armed forces, it's members and it's employee's are to be suppressed at once by the military, using the most extreme methods, until the assailants are destroyed."

It appears because the assailant could not be caught, Wehrmacht troops where following orders as directed, albeit these orders where deemed illegal and held as evidence as such at Nurenberg and source as documents C-50 and 886-PS. Copy of order by Fuehrer's Headquarters,
13 May 1941, signed Keitel,
with copies of letters of transmittal
from Fuehrer's Headquarters and Naval
War Staff.

I could be wrong as this happening in 1945 might have been following an order earlier from 1943
An order issued by the Fuehrer's Headquarters, 18 August
1943,' and signed by KEITEL, provided:
"In the case of particularly treacherous crimes
committed by guerrillas and by their accomplices.
commanders not lower than a division commander
are authorized to o4der in advance that no prisoners
will be taken, or that prisoners and civilians taken
in the combat zone will be shot. Without such orders
local commanders will act similarly on their own
responsibility."
747-PS Copy of order by Fuehrer's Headquarters,
18 August 1943. signed Keitel.

[TISO]

So far we have no sufficsent information what really had happened there...so it is pure speculation to say there was a 1:100-case committted here.

Jan-Hendrik

Not really. Iz is clearly 100 for 1 case. At least germans wrote that on the posters they hanged after the crime.
Partisans ambushed and killed high german official Anton Dorfmeister (strmbahnfuerer or something like that). In retaliation german hanged 99 and shot (on the run) 1 hostages. Simple as that. Hostages were civilians taken from prisons nearby (mostly Celje).
It's a bit interesting that territory was anexed to the 3rd reich and at least some of the hostages had german citizenship.

[michael mills]

What were the civilians in prison for?

If they were persons who had already offended against the German occupation forces, for example by engaging in acts of warfare against them, then they were not innocent bystanders but "illegal combatants". In that case, they were persons who had a "common purpose" with the persons who actually carried out the assassination, by reason of being members of an illegal organisation whose purpose was to carry out illegal acts of violence against a military force in occupation.

If in fact the hostages were partisans and political prisoners, as stated in the post by David Thompson, then their use as hostages was justifiable. The only quibbling could then be about the number executed, ie whether it was a reasonable reprisal or excessive.

[bf109 emil]

What were the civilians in prison for?

If they were persons who had already offended against the German occupation forces, for example by engaging in acts of warfare against them, then they were not innocent bystanders but "illegal combatants". In that case, they were persons who had a "common purpose" with the persons who actually carried out the assassination, by reason of being members of an illegal organisation whose purpose was to carry out illegal acts of violence against a military force in occupation.

If in fact the hostages were partisans and political prisoners, as stated in the post by David Thompson, then their use as hostages was justifiable. The only quibbling could then be about the number executed, ie whether it was a reasonable reprisal or excessive.

speculating they where or had a common purpose with the person whom carried out the assassination is not proven and pure speculation, if so where is the proof?
likewise speculation of them belonging to an illegal organization to carry out illegal acts of violence is purely speculative...as what was German policy if indeed this was true, where partisans given a sentence of being jailed in Russia in WW2?

and The only quibbling could then be about the number executed, ie whether it was a reasonable reprisal or excessive. which is still not a legal and in your words quote "in accord with the relevant rules of land warfare" as the quibbling of numbers changes this from a reprisal into a atrocity

[TISO]

What were the civilians in prison for?

becouse they were Slovenes. Most were locked up becouse of Hitler's order: "Make me this land german again"

[michael mills]

becouse they were Slovenes. Most were locked up becouse of Hitler's order: "Make me this land german again"

Tiso,

Can you document that assertion?

Why were these particular Slovenes locked up and not others? Were they members or anti-German insurgent groups? Had they been involved in anti-German activity?

In your previous message you claimed that some of the hostages had German citizenship. Now you are claiming they were locked up in order to "make the land German again". There is an obvious contradiction between your two claims.

The source quoted by the moderator claimed that the persons executed were partisans and political prisoners. Has that claim been disproved?

[bf109 emil]

The source quoted by the moderator claimed that the persons executed were partisans and political prisoners. Has that claim been disproved?

I don't know as i hate to challenge sources, but the one David quoted from was a report written by school kids as to the experience they wrote about while visiting the twinning of 2 cities...and if the source of them being political prisoners and partisans are indeed correct from the source, so to must be also take the same source stated these where reprisals as a direct consequence or reprisal for the killing of a Nazi general and the district commander and in no way, can an assumption be made as to these prisoners aiding or where responsible for this action while being in jail...Unless a source can be listed as factual proof, different or stating these executions where carried out of those guilty, we have 2 sources stating reprisal killings and none directly related to the activity of those whom committed the 2 assassinations unless one can be found as to the actions of even a single one of these 100 where found to be guilty of the above 2 assassinations these reprisal killings appear to be an atrocity and not legal reprisals in accordance with the relevant rules of land warfarehttp://www.sedbergh.org.uk/twinning/school/feb2007.html then again the original source quoted by Marcus seems to be vague and only lists the total killing of a million Slovene civilians hung from tree's as a reprisal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankolovo_crime

Tiso seems to have a first hand knowledge about this, but i hate to either point guilt or proclaim innocence contrary to sources unless definite sources or proof say otherwise...if a 100 where killed I'd say it was an atrocity, if a million where hung from trees along the road I'd have to say false...is their anymore known facts say as to the death of Nazi officers Anton Dorfmeister was mortally wounded, dying the next day in Celje hospital? or maybe the number of partisans involved and location Tesno gorge from Frankolovo?