Frankolovo

[TISO]

Hitler quote is from april1941 when he visited Maribor.

Not really contradiction. About slovenes i'll give you an example of my grandfathers family.
He was not capable of military service (hernia) and served his military service in royal yugoslav army as medic so he was classified as non arian and lost all privileges i.e. was classified as protected person (no citizenship). His brothers were capable of military service and were classified as arian given citizenship and drafted. Now is someone that was given german citizenship acted against german whishes/orders (didn't make effort to learn german, unfavorably commented on german policies, had relatives who were in partisans, political prisoners, promiment slovenes or were deserters.......) he could get a one way ticket to KZ or was arrested and shot as hostage.
german policies here were identical to policies on other territories annexed to the reich (parts of poland specifically).

[DNS]

Any ideas were the person who wrote the Wikipedia page on Frankolovo got the idea that a million hostages were killed in Slovenia in February 1945?

With the info posted here, you could correct the article.
I checked the History of the page, and the fellow who origionaly wrote the page had listed the figure of one hundred killed.
DNS

[Rob - wssob2]

The wikipedia page seems to be fixed now...

[michael mills]

I am still waiting to hear exactly why the 100 hostages were being held in prison in Celje.

I presume it was for some sort of anti-German activity, which would give them a common purpose with the partisans who committed the illegal act of violence against the German administration for which they were hanged as a reprisal.

However, I am willing to accept that they were all in prison for jay-walking, or tax evasion, or pedophilia, some crime unrelated to anti-German activity, if that can be demonstrated.

The bottom line is that the executed hostages were not innocent civilians rounded up on the streets at random. They were in prison for something. It is possible that they were innocent of whatever was the crime for which they were imprisoned, but that has not yet been demonstrated.

[bf109 emil]

Any ideas were the person who wrote the Wikipedia page on Frankolovo got the idea that a million hostages were killed in Slovenia in February 1945?

With the info posted here, you could correct the article.
I checked the History of the page, and the fellow who origionaly wrote the page had listed the figure of one hundred killed.
DNS

I got a problem with this or that...albeit i know 1 million was indeed a mistake, simple basic knowledge, but how can someone just simply change the numbers? yes i know the original was in error, but how did he come up with the 100 number and not say 99, or 101? I am not denying this incident, nor am I accepting it as...to be honest...me, myself in order to form a more thorough opinion would like to see some more data on this before i can conclude or be swayed one way or another...in short is their any more info before i pass judgment or form a more conclusive opinion??

[TISO]

I got a problem with this or that...albeit i know 1 million was indeed a mistake, simple basic knowledge, but how can someone just simply change the numbers? yes i know the original was in error, but how did he come up with the 100 number and not say 99, or 101? I am not denying this incident, nor am I accepting it as...to be honest...me, myself in order to form a more thorough opinion would like to see some more data on this before i can conclude or be swayed one way or another...in short is their any more info before i pass judgment or form a more conclusive opinion??

Emil in response of your post my sister (yes i managed to spread a bacilus AHF ) went out to the monument and took some photos of the name plate which is a copy of german publication poster with names of the killed. Well germans were known to regard as active partisan/bandit anyone they wanted bumped off. Also they weren't sentanced per (you know court of law or such niceties) se but rather picked from the prison cells and notified they are to be hanged. I regards of the names they are accurate.

[bf109 emil]

Tiso thank you and your sister very much...your pics and foot work mean more to me in learning and by seeing such monuments and plaques, then any book or words in print would ever hope to

Thanks Again
Jim Snowden (bf109 emil)

[TISO]

We'll try to get some additional photos. One primary school in Slovenske Konjice (town where i live) was named after Tone Meliva (No.85 on the list) and contained a collection pic's in atrium about this event. I belive that after renovations few years agou their collection was sent into the museum. We'll see what we can do.

[bf109 emil]

We'll try to get some additional photos. One primary school in Slovenske Konjice (town where i live) was named after Tone Meliva (No.85 on the list) and contained a collection pic's in atrium about this event. I belive that after renovations few years agou their collection was sent into the museum. We'll see what we can do.

this would be awesome and thank you...was this person number 85 a Tone Meliva a person from this town or a former teacher as wondering what destined the school to be named after him...and again thank you

[Marcus]

Many thanks Tiso.

Does anyone have any info on whether this was the work of the Wehrmacht (as claimed in the Wikipedia article) or SS/Polizei?

/Marcus

[michael mills]

We now have a list of names of persons executed, but we still have no answer to the question of their status.

Were they all innocent civilians? Or were they persons who had been engaged in illegal acts against the German occupation forces?

The whole question of whether this was a totally illegal atrocity or a reprisal action that had a basis in legality but may have been excessive in scale depends on that answer. The specific German agency that carried out the executions, whether they were an atrocity or a justifiable reprisal, is by comparison only a minor issue.

[michael mills]

Another noteworthy feature is that a large number of the persons executed had German names. That would seem to rule out the possibility that they were selected for execution purely on ethnic grounds, eg simply "for being Slovene", as claimed by Tiso, since the German Government did not execute Germans, or persons it considered German, except those who openly opposed it in some way.

[bf109 emil]

the German Government did not execute Germans, or persons it considered German, except those who openly opposed it in some way.

apparently if this is correct and the persons executed where German then indeed Germans executed Germans...yes I also can and see why they might be executed for perhaps denouncing NSDAP or opposed the Government, but even doing this does not removed the ones whom are executed from having German nationality besides the fact they opposed or say denounced the current form of Government in place which headed Germany...

Did that make sense...but I have to ask and here i am lacking what others might have more knowledge in...but here goes...Was it not the policy or protocol of persons whom denounced Germany or openly opposed it, etc. that Germany made these people known...what i mean is to kill them and within a seemingly short span of time does not IMHO seem to be the policy i have read about where people or citizens whom opposed Germany where almost paraded or made public both to shun them and their families into shame and also as a deterrent for others whom might think and follow the same lines...albeit i have gone away off from the topic thread is yes these people might have been like Michael says enemies or opposed openly views of their native country and where indeed killed for this, but in such a short span of time and the number killed it might have also been possible German civilians whom where in jail for a petty crime or the likes of where executed in error without due process or time taken to screen each person marked or targeted for execution and thus maybe some Germans where killed by Germans in error? a possibility?

[TISO]

Another noteworthy feature is that a large number of the persons executed had German names. That would seem to rule out the possibility that they were selected for execution purely on ethnic grounds, eg simply "for being Slovene", as claimed by Tiso, since the German Government did not execute Germans, or persons it considered German, except those who openly opposed it in some way.

All geographic, personal and family names were germanised (they ussualy didn't go so far a italians in areas occupied after 1918 who italianised all personal and family names even on ancient tombstones and in church books). Some like my grandmothers (Kuk) or grandfathers (Toman) family names were left as they were but some were simply translated into german or letters which doesn't appear in german were replaced with german versions (š=sch or s, č=ch ir c, ž=zh or z, v=w, g=gg, C at the end of the name as Z etc). Personal names were also germanised (France/Franc/Frančišek - Franz, Janez/Ivan - Johann, Jože -Josef etc.).
For example names from the list ( a little note: letter j is read as y is in english):
No 95 Poljanšek Alojz
No 96 Kranjc Franc
No 97 Štrbunzl Alojz
No 98 Žerjak Anton
No 99 Garb Ludvik
No 100 Goljuf Martin

For germanised slovene geographic names you have a list here (so you can compare list of birth town of excuted):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ge ... n_Slovenia


One has to understand how occupation worked.
To get some sense about it you can read this (it is the site of forcibly mobilised slovenes into the german armed forces:
http://www.zvezamobi.net/english.htm
First they exiled together with their families most of prominent slovenes, state officials and most of priests ussualy to Serbia some to Croatia and few lucky ones to Italian occuaption zone (if they had someone to vouch for them and if italians didn't object - my mothers uncle was one of those few lucky ones). At the same time they also exiled all those who were on kulturbund ( or other german organisation) shit list or were denounced as pro yugoslav (my mothers uncle volunteered to the royal yugoslav army on 6th of april). Next who were exiled were all that settled on the territories after 1914 and their families ( order to report in april 1941) = most notably slovenes that were exiled or fled before italian occupation of western slovenia after 1918. The rest were in october 1941 classified into 3 categories regarding to the race (with few other factors as i explained on example of my grandfather) and differently couloured identity cards were given:
- white - not acceptale - not possible to become citizen of the reich
- green - conditionally acceptable - citizenship auf wideruff
- red - acceptable i.e. pure aryan - ethnic germans citizenship, others citizenship auf wideruff

Anti german activietis are also very wide category encomapssing all from active partisans to poeple who were cought speaking or writing in slovene language or telling a bad joke about germans. One could also be simply on someones shit list and was denounced or simply had relatives who were on such list (communists quite oftenly denounced poeple who were their political enemies as anti-german to the germans who then did their dirty work - mothers uncle was always convinced that it was the communists who denounced him to the germans).
The ones with white identity cards were ussualy rounded up and shot in reprisal shootings if prisons at the time didn't contain enough of the "enemies of the state".
About parading of anti german elements to the public. That was a practice with partisans captured in battle other were simply taken by the night i.e. everybody knew they were arrested and most probably sent to the camps or their names appeared on such annoucments regarding reprisal executions.

[TISO]

albeit i have gone away off from the topic thread is yes these people might have been like Michael says enemies or opposed openly views of their native country and where indeed killed for this, but in such a short span of time and the number killed it might have also been possible German civilians whom where in jail for a petty crime or the likes of where executed in error without due process or time taken to screen each person marked or targeted for execution and thus maybe some Germans where killed by Germans in error? a possibility?

WTF???? WHAT NATIVE COUNTRY????????
BTW Germans were very meticulus regarding who they shot. Petty and even professioanl criminals were ussualy not shot but were either sent to the jails KZ or the army.