HMS Stubborn

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TISO
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HMS Stubborn

#1

Post by TISO » 07 Dec 2009, 20:09

I was searchin for some info on this boat and i off course found wiki article which states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Stubborn_(P238)
Pacific Far East
Stubborn was transferred, arriving in mid 1945, but had a distinguished career there before the war ended. She sank the Japanese patrol vessel Patrol Boat No.2 (the former destroyer Nadakaze) in the Java Sea. The survivors were shot in the water. She went on to sink a Japanese sailing vessel and an unidentified small Japanese vessel.[1]
U-boat net claims the same:
http://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/3455.html
25 Jul 1945
HMS Stubborn (Lt. A.G. Davies, RN) torpedoes and sinks the Japanese patrol vessel Patrol Boat No.2 (1350 tons, former destroyer Nadakaze) in the Java Sea in position 07º06'S, 115º42'E. The survivors were shot in the water.
Any more details on this?
What if any were the consequences for the skipper or the crew?

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#2

Post by JamesL » 07 Dec 2009, 20:31

OBITUARY
The Telegraph

Lieutenant-Commander Albert-George Davies

02 Apr 2004
Lieutenant-Commander Albert-George Davies, who has died aged 84, was the last British submariner to sink a Japanese warship in the Second World War.
In April 1945 Davies was commanding the overseas patrol submarine Stubborn on an 11-week voyage from the Clyde to Fremantle to join the Anglo-Dutch 4th Submarine Flotilla, operating under the Americans. He was north of Bali when he heard that a Japanese destroyer was to pass though his area on July 25.
Commencing a day-long watch listening on Asdic with an occasional all-round look by periscope, he was "in a funk" lest the Americans deprive him of his first opportunity to fire a shot in action. Nevertheless he managed several hours of good sleep until propellers were heard drawing close.
Although the Japanese destroyer Nadakaze was zigzagging wildly, Davies found a firing position. Two in the salvo of four torpedoes fired at 3,000 yards range struck, and his spontaneous cry of "We've blown his bloody arse right off" was greeted by his crew's cheers.
Davies wanted a prisoner for interrogation, but as he manoeuvred amongst the survivors one of them made what was taken a rude gesture, and was promptly shot through the head by the gunnery officer, using his pistol. It was an instinctive and unpremeditated action, but Davies decided that he must shoot all the survivors to prevent reprisals should Stubborn itself be later captured, and he sent for machine-guns to be brought to the bridge without relish.
Looking back years later David was convinced that the decision he had made was the right one. However, an aircraft forced him to dive and, when he surfaced that night, there was no sign of survivors. In the course of this patrol, Davies also destroyed shipping by gunfire, bombarded a harbour in northern Bali, destroying a jetty and some landing craft, and boarded junks at night; in one of these incidents the gunnery officer went missing.
Davies was awarded the DSC.
Albert George Davies was born on May 6 1920 at Ramsgate where his household chore was to tear the Daily Mail into 7 in squares for the outside privy. He was offered a choral scholarship by Westminster Abbey, but high Anglicanism overawed him. Instead he became a contemporary of Edward Heath, the future Prime Minister, at Chatham House School where the fees were four guineas a term.
Encouraged by his father, who had been a telegraphist in the Royal Navy, young Davies sat the Civil Service examination for a naval scholarship, which he passed with good marks to join as a special entry cadet in September 1937.
He recalled that, in his first ship, the light cruiser Newcastle, early in 1939, the official visit of the French President had necessitated for the last time naval officers to wear cocked hats, frock coats, epaulettes and white kid gloves. Soon after the outbreak of war he was at Scapa Flow when Gunther Prien in U-47 sank the battleship Royal Oak.
In November he was still in Newcastle when she was adjacent to the armed merchant cruiser Rawalpindi on the Northern Patrol line between Scotland and Greenland. The German battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau overwhelmed Rawalpindi, but when Newcastle arrived in answer to an attack signal, the Germans fled under cover of smoke and bad weather, and the intended breakout into the Atlantic was thwarted. The Kreigsmarine's chief of operations coldly noted, "Battleships are supposed to shoot, not lay smokescreens".
Davies's career promised well when he was made sub-lieutenant of the gunroom of the battleship Queen Elizabeth, where he was expected to keep the young Australian, British and Polish midshipmen in order; but after a boisterous evening in Gibraltar, involving a stolen carpet and a runaway car, he was sent in disgrace to the submarine depot ship Medway.
Davies's introduction to "the trade" was harder than usual, the bullying "Crap" Miers declaring he would not have Davies in his submarine, Torbay, and E F "Bertie" Pizey, captain of Oberon, claiming exclusive use of Davies's childhood first name. Being "pot valiant", Davies told Miers that he wouldn't serve with him anyway, and thereafter he hyphenated his first names, Albert-George.
In August 1941 a shortage of officers meant Davies being lent to the submarine Tetrarch, without the usual training, and his first experience of being depth charged. Tetrarch had torpedoed an Italian merchant ship in the harbour of Benghazi, but while withdrawing through the swept channel it ran aground while submerged and was attacked by two destroyers for several hours.
One of the last depth charge salvoes was so close that it blew Tetrarch free of the shingle bottom and it was able to creep away, low on battery power. Davies remembered how sweet the fresh air was when eventually she surfaced after dark.
He was navigator of Thrasher in March 1942 when destroyers and aircraft hunted it off Crete. Surfacing afterwards, Davies heard a clanking noise but did not identify the cause. After writing up the attack log he went to sleep, unaware of what was happening 10 ft above him.
Thrasher's captain, "Rufus" Mackenzie, had decided not to alarm the crew while two unexploded bombs lodged in Thrasher's casing were removed by the first officer, Lieutenant Peter Roberts and the second coxswain, Petty Officer Tom Gould. Roberts and Gould worked regardless of the risk that the bombs might explode when moved and that Thrasher would dive immediately if sighted by the enemy, thus drowning them: they were both awarded the Victoria Cross.
Davies recorded that his own reaction was not to feel lucky that he was alive, but admiration for the enemy pilot's direct hit and empathy for his undoubted chagrin that the bombs had not gone off.
After completing "the perisher" course for submarine commanders, Davies's first command was the submarine Ursula, where his task was to train a Russian crew and hand it over to the Soviet navy.
From 1947 to 1949, he commanded the submarine Ambush, in which he conducted trials of an improved design of snort mast, which would enable submarines to recharge batteries while remaining submerged. He was then loaned to the Royal Indian Navy as an instructor and studied at the staff college in southern India, and afterwards was first lieutenant of the frigate Sparrow, when she doubled for Amethyst in making the film Yangtse Incident.
When he retired in 1958, Davies qualified as a barrister at Gray's Inn and worked for some years for the marine insurers Thomas Miller, managers of the UK P & I Club. He was secretary to the Williams Hudson shipping company, and latterly worked for the 600 Group. When Davies realised the unfair anomalies of the Ministry of Defence's pension scheme he crusaded to have them removed through the pages of The Daily Telegraph.
Davies, who died on March 13, married Lorna Hurst, whom he had met during the blitz of Portsmouth. After they divorced in 1964, he married Barbara Hemsley, who died in 1999. Two sons of his first marriage survive him


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Re: HMS Stubborn

#3

Post by David Thompson » 07 Dec 2009, 22:08


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Re: HMS Stubborn

#4

Post by TISO » 07 Dec 2009, 22:48

UPS somehow didn't find this on that thread. Thanks for the info and link.

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#5

Post by TISO » 07 Dec 2009, 23:16

Combining the info on previous post it is remarkable that gunnery officer who was "responsible" for the mess conveniatly went MIA. IMHO it was probably just a case of blaming the guy who couldn't defend himself.

BTW the case is almost identical to S.S. Peleus affair.

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#6

Post by David Thompson » 07 Dec 2009, 23:39

Readers interested in the Peleus case may find this thread (and its links) helpful:

Killing shipwreck survivors
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&p=748743

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#7

Post by bf109 emil » 08 Dec 2009, 09:00

TISO wrote:Combining the info on previous post it is remarkable that gunnery officer who was "responsible" for the mess conveniatly went MIA. IMHO it was probably just a case of blaming the guy who couldn't defend himself.

BTW the case is almost identical to S.S. Peleus affair.
how so did he go MIA, do we know this or was his statement ever given to the RN of the said affair? as Davis does not deny this nor the fact he ordered the killing of Japanese in the water...the actions he took where his own and by his own judgment as captain of a submarine and head of a crew, ..but Davies decided that he must shoot all the survivors to prevent reprisals should Stubborn itself be later captured, and he sent for machine-guns to be brought to the bridge without relish. clearly shows Davis and his own actions and doings, regardless if a gunnery officer had shot a survivor earlier, as if shooting a survivor by the gunnery crew was illegal so to must have been Davies actions :wink:

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#8

Post by AVV » 08 Dec 2009, 21:10

TISO wrote:I was searchin for some info on this boat and i off course found wiki article which states:
Good evening, TISO!

BTW, the information in Wikipedia is based upon materials of u-boat.net.

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#9

Post by Andy H » 08 Dec 2009, 22:50

So one survivor was shot bt the Gunnery Officer and though it was planned to murder the others, circumastances saved tem from that fate-Is that correct?

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#10

Post by AVV » 09 Dec 2009, 17:47

Good evening, Andy!

Good question indeed.
As far as I understood the article, Davies only ordered to bring the machine-guns to the bridge and shortly afterwards Japanese plane appeared and the submarine had to submerge. When she surfaced, there were no Japanese - so they all sank. This is one variant.
Still, it is not clear (at least for me) what period of time passed between the order to bring machine-guns and the appearance of Japanese plane and whether British submariners had time to start firing on the Japanese.

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#11

Post by TISO » 09 Dec 2009, 18:39

Ok let's put it this was: If he just ordered to bring MG's up that would hardly be serious enough to be mentioned in his obituary when you really wouldn't want to portray othervise respected member of the comunity as a war criminal.

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#12

Post by Andy H » 10 Dec 2009, 19:28

TISO wrote:Ok let's put it this was: If he just ordered to bring MG's up that would hardly be serious enough to be mentioned in his obituary when you really wouldn't want to portray othervise respected member of the comunity as a war criminal.
You may well be right, but no other members of the crew seem to have made there views or experiences known, especially those pulling the trigger(s)

Just so you know, a war criminal is a war criminal no matter what his nationality. Though I would be saddened to know that a fellow countryman could do such things.

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Andy

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#13

Post by AVV » 10 Dec 2009, 21:39

Good evening, gentlemen!

For me such cruelty of British sailors seems especially strange taking into account that these events happened less than a month before the surrender of Japan, at a time when the defeat of Japanese empire was quite obvoius for everyone (at least on Allied side).
What could be the reasons behind such unprovoked shooting of Japanese survivors (of course, if it really took place)?

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: Unpunished Royal Navy war crimes of WW1 & WW2

#14

Post by wernerbrooks » 19 Oct 2014, 07:14

I would like to leave a lead here for any constructive discussion.The HMS Stubborn had a weekly newspaper called Achtung!.
It records all events and RN humor as only a submariner would understand.
They never shot the Japanese survivors.It is strange that the decision to shoot them was even mentioned in the captains obit when it never took place anyway.The Achtung was stenographed and hand traced on the back of the NAVAL MESSENGE form S1320.
It a different cover every week and was skilfully cartoon ed.
It is unfortunate that such long rants were allowed to swamp an important topic.Maybe some reorganizing of this unpleasant topic would help others to contribute to this discussion.

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Re: HMS Stubborn

#15

Post by wernerbrooks » 19 Oct 2014, 08:01

I have an orginal copy of the"Achtung" issue 9.This was the weekly paper published on the HMS Stubborn.
They record and illustrate the sinking of the Minekaze Davies also humbly congratulates all.There is no sign of any mass shootings of Japanese sailors.The loss of the officer who fired at the survivor is brief.Overall there is no sign of any desre but to go home with the war over.

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