Mass Graves

[Jonathan Swift]

For Jonathan Swift --

In addition to Mr. Wendel's caution to you posted above:

(1) The topic of this thread is "mass graves," not some other forum or the personalities of contributors to this or some other forum.

(2) The purpose of the forum is to exchange facts and viewpoints, not insults.

(3) You wrote: "On this forum, my dear Steaming Joe, I’m trying to have a discussion with Moran that I couldn’t have on the Air Photo forum due to the moderator’s censorship and banning. He has received an invitation by e-mail with a link to this thread. I made my overture deliberately provocative to improve the chances of his showing up. And I also have never been one to mince words about what I think."

I won't "mince words" with you either. I suggest you read the "sticky" post "On Civility" at the top of the index page. Provocations and insults, particularly for the purpose of satisfying a narrow personal agenda, are inappropriate here.

(4) "But whatever their [the moderators] reason for not enforcing their guidelines against you, and against others of your persuasion, the fact is that they are not enforced and that so-called Revisionists therefore have nothing to fear here."

If you're trying to be offensive, Mr. Swift, you're succeeding. The idea of having this forum is to exchange information and points of view on the holocaust and WWII war crimes. Holocaust denial is not permitted, and this policy is strictly enforced.

The message has been read and will be complied with.

If our forum host considers exposing the dishonesty of so-called Revisionism on a "Holocaust & Warcrimes" forum a "narrow personal agenda", I see no point in arguing with him.

While I proceed with the topic, however, an explanation why the statements of Mr. Smith don't fetch a similar admonishment would be appreciated.

[Jonathan Swift]

I’ll be glad to comply, but … why is Scott Smith allowed his unfriendly tone and his discussing the issues of other forums and other moderators?

When/if he (or anyone else) does not follow the guidelines, he is told to drop it by David or someone else on the staff, just like you have been in this thread.

/Marcus

I didn't see that happening on this particular occasion.

I hope our moderators will also appreciate that these off-topic exchanges would not have occurred without Mr. Smith's uncalled-for intervention.

[Marcus]

When/if he (or anyone else) does not follow the guidelines, he is told to drop it by David or someone else on the staff, just like you have been in this thread.

I didn't see that happening on this particular occasion.

The first post by David in this thread was directed to all who discussed the other forum in question, so no one was singled out or ignored.

/Marcus

[Jonathan Swift]

The off-topic intermezzo hopefully concluded, here are the posts of Max, censored on the Air Photo forum, that I referred to in my own censored post.

I post them because I consider them essential to understanding the context of the discussion, and to the continuation thereof.

Graphic images have been replaced by links, in accordance with this forum’s “Policy on Atrocity Photographs”.

1.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19120.jpg

A Latvian policeman leads a group of Jews to the execution site on the beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19116.jpg

A group of Jewish women and children undress prior to their execution by Latvian collaborators on the beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19113.jpg

Members of the 21st Latvian Police Battalion assemble a group of Jewish women for execution on a beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19115.jpg

A group of Jewish children is led to an execution site on a beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19118.jpg

A Latvian policeman leads a group of Jewish women to the execution site on the beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19123.jpg

A group of Jewish women stand at the edge of an open mass grave facing the sea, where they await execution by a firing squad of Latvian SD and police.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19122.jpg

A group of naked Jewish women and girls walk to the execution site on the beach near Liepaja. In the background other Jews are being forced to undress by Latvian police.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19117.jpg

Jews are forced to undress prior to their execution by Latvian police on the beach near Liepaja.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19125.jpg

A Latvian policeman walks along the edge of a mass grave towards the bodies Jewish women and children who have just been executed.

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/19/19124.jpg

A group of Jewish women who have been brought to a beach near Liepaja, stand at the edge of an open mass grave facing the sea, where they await execution by a firing squad of Latvian SD and police.

Date: Dec 15, 1941
Locale: Liepaja, [Kurzeme] Latvia
Photographer: Carl Strott
Credit: Zentrale Stelle der Landesjustizverwaltungen, courtesy of USHMM Photo Archives
Copyright: Public Domain

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/46/46695.jpg

A Yugoslav war crimes investigator (Professor Sh. Premer) examines exhumed bodies in the Uskoci Forest.

Date: 1945
Locale: [Croatia] Yugoslavia
Photographer: Unknown
Credit:
Copyright: Agency Agreement (No Fees)

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/46/46694.jpg

A Yugoslav war crimes investigator (named Rodic) examines exhumed bodies in the Uskoci Forest.

Date: 1945
Locale: [Croatia] Yugoslavia
Photographer: Unknown
Credit:
Copyright: Agency Agreement (No Fees)

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... t%25253D21

Dr. Alexander Libo standing beside a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna). Photographed on February 2, 1958.

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... t%25253D21

A mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... t%25253D21

Corpses exhumed from a mass grave at the Ponary mass extermination site near Vilnius (Vilna).

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... art%253D21

The bodies of Jews from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, in a mass grave. This was located beside the village of Jelichowice, some four km east of Zloczow. Photographed in 1942.

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... art%253D21

The bodies of Jews from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, exhumed from a mass grave after the liberation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... art%253D21

The bodies of Jews from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, exhumed from a mass grave after the liberation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/gfhview/PrintItem ... art%253D21

A man and woman viewing the body of a child from the Zolochev (Zloczow) ghetto, which was exhumed from a mass grave after the liberation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000035980 ... _1_Web.jpg

People viewing the corpses of Jews in a mass grave that was discovered in Iwje.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000035981 ... _1_Web.jpg

People viewing the corpses of Jews in a mass grave that was discovered in Iwje.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000035982 ... _1_Web.jpg

People viewing the corpses of Jews in a mass grave that was discovered in Iwje.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036004 ... _1_Web.jpg

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036005 ... _1_Web.jpg

Gravediggerers lowering bodies into a mass grave in Lancut.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036132 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave of Lenin Jewry (in the Polesye region, on the Russo - Polish border). Jewish gravediggers are standing in and on the upper edge of the grave.
Note: The Jewish community of Lenin was killed on the first day of the Hebrew month (Rosh Hodesh) of Elul, in August 1942.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036225 ... _1_Web.jpg

Jewish gravediggers in a mass grave in the Belzec cemetery. In the grave are some ten bodies wrapped in shrouds.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036289 ... _1_Web.jpg

People standing by the site of a mass grave of the Jews of Dubno.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036357 ... _1_Web.jpg

The coffins of thirty - five Jews in a mass grave in Nowe Miasto. This photograph was apparently taken after the war.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036311 ... _1_Web.jpg

Soldiers of the Red Army beside a mass grave of the Jews of Wysock. The city was liberated in January 1944.

Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:41 am
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3587da4d46

2.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036506 ... _1_Web.jpg

The location of a mass grave in Chepilovo where the Jews of Slonim were murdered and buried. Photographed in 1959.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036507 ... _1_Web.jpg

The location of a mass grave in Chepilovo where the Jews of Slonim were murdered and buried.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036591 ... _1_Web.jpg

A Soviet investigating committee excavating a mass grave of the Jews of Kozin. Photographed in 1944.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036592 ... _1_Web.jpg

A Soviet investigating committee beside a mass grave of the Jews of Kozin, which they excavated. Photographed in 1944.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036618 ... _1_Web.jpg

Two men and two women beside a mass grave of the Jews of Kurenets.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000036704 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave of the Jews of Svencionis (Svencionys) and the surrounding area. Some eight thousand Jews were killed here between September 27 and October 9, 1941.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001506 ... _1_Web.jpg

The remains of Jewish victims from Utena (Utian), Lithuania, being exhumed from a mass grave after the liberation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001569 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave of Jews in a forest in Lithuania. Photographed in 1941.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001580 ... _1_Web.jpg

Residents of Lithuania beside the bones of Jews found in a mass grave at Utena (Utian), Lithania. Photographed in 1964.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001589 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave in which 3,000 Jews were shot in Pajust, near Panevezys in Lithuania. Photographed after the liberation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001590 ... _1_Web.jpg

Corpses lying atop a mass grave in Siauliai, Lithuania. 215 Jews were murdered here.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001592 ... _1_Web.jpg

The bones of Jews uncovered in a mass grave at Utena (Utian), Lithuania.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000001855 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave in a cemetery in Nove Zamky, Czechoslovakia. 19 Jews were buried there.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002039 ... _1_Web.jpg

A German soldier shooting a Jew from Vinnitsa, Ukraine, at the edge of a mass grave. German soldiers are watching him from behind. The photograph was found on the body of a German soldier and he had written on the back: "The last Jew in Vinnitsa". Photographed in 1943.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002040 ... _1_Web.jpg

Two uniformed men beside a vast mass grave containing the bodies of Jews murdered in Vinnitsa, Ukraine.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002042 ... _1_Web.jpg

German soldiers shooting Jews who are still alive in a mass grave in Vinnitsa, USSR. Photographed in 1943.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002043 ... _1_Web.jpg

German soldiers among the bodies in the mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002055 ... _1_Web.jpg

Two uniformed men standing beside or on a mass grave in Mineralni Vodi, Caucasus. Three hundred Jews were interred in the grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002059 ... _1_Web.jpg

German Gestapo men shooting Soviet POWs at the edge of a mass grave. German soldiers are watching them from behind. Photographed in September 1943.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002062 ... _1_Web.jpg

The execution of civilians at the edge of a mass grave in the USSR. Those being killed are standing beside an earthen rampart and below them is a mass grave filled with many bodies.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002063 ... _1_Web.jpg

Civilians beside a mass grave of Jews in Zhmerinka, Ukraine. Beside them are the remains of some bodies that were exhumed from the grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002064 ... _1_Web.jpg

The exhumation of Jews' bodies from the mass grave in Zhmerinka, Ukraine.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002075 ... _1_Web.jpg

A German soldier with a pistol, shooting at bodies in a mass grave in the USSR.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002080 ... _1_Web.jpg

The corpses of Jews in a mass grave that was discovered in Iwje. The Jews were murdered on May 1, 1942 and the exhumation took place on July 15, 1944.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002085 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave in Drobitski Yar near Kharkov. Fifteen thousand Kharkov Jews were murdered here in March 1942.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000002346 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave in Kragujevac, Serbia, containing bodies of Jewish men. Photographed on May 21, 1941.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000005177 ... _1_Web.jpg

The opening of a mass grave in the city of Bialystok.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000005178 ... _1_Web.jpg

The opening of a mass grave in the city of Bialystok. Photographed in 1946.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000005882 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave containing the bodies of Janowska camp inmates.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000006433 ... _1_Web.jpg

A mass grave on the grounds of the Skarzysko - Kamienna camp.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000006768 ... _1_Web.jpg

Members of the Soviet investigating committee in the Klooga camp beside a mass grave there. Photographed in 1944.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013063 ... _1_Web.jpg

Victims in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013066 ... _1_Web.jpg

Corpses in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013080 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bodies that were removed from temporary mass graves being reburied in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013399 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bodies of Jews removed from a mass grave in order to be decently buried.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013421 ... _1_Web.jpg

The funeral and burial of bodies that were removed from a mass grave at a mass extermination site

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013943 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bones and skulls that were exposed in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013949 ... _1_Web.jpg

Civilians beside an exposed mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013973 ... _1_Web.jpg

Rows of bodies, possibly exposed in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013974 ... _1_Web.jpg

Rows of bodies, possibly exposed in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013975 ... _1_Web.jpg

A row of corpses in a mass grave, after exhumation.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000013990 ... _1_Web.jpg

A row of bodies that were removed from a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000014006 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bodies in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000014012 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bodies in a mass grave.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000014054 ... _1_Web.jpg

Jews in the Ukraine digging a mass grave for themselves.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000022763 ... _1_Web.jpg

The bodies of women killed by the German army, in a mass grave in Kerch.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000022764 ... _1_Web.jpg

Bodies taken from a mass grave in Taganrog, Russia. These were Russian civilians killed by the Germans.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000023179 ... _1_Web.jpg

Jews who returned to the town of Iwje, beside a mass grave discovered there. The grave contained the bodies of 2600 Jews who had been killed there. Photographed on April 20, 1945.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000024263 ... _1_Web.jpg

The area where Jews of the town of Lazdijai were killed and buried in a mass grave. In this place, the Katkiskis estate, Jews from Lazdijai were killed in November 1941. Photographed in 1998.

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000045372 ... _1_Web.jpg

Jewish Holocaust survivors beside a mass grave where Jews from Gorodok are buried.
Note: In the summer of 1941, Jews were massacred here by German Einsatzgruppen units

http://www.gfh.org.il/museum/0000072306 ... _1_Web.jpg

The Jewish cemetery in Radomsko in 1975. The gravestone in the photo was put on a mass grave of murdered Radomsko Jews. The upright square stones mark the boundaries of the grave.

http://www.holocaust-info.dk/treblinka/ ... _grave.htm

mass grave in Treblinka

http://shamash.org/holocaust/photos/images/EG2.jpg

A mass execution of Jews in Nazi occupied Soviet Union. Naked Jews, including a young boy, just before their murder.

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holoca ... izocz1.jpg

Jewish women from the Mizocz Ghetto in the Ukraine, which held roughly 1,700 Jews. Some are holding infants as they are forced to wait in a line before their execution by Germans and Ukrainian collaborators.
[Photo credits: Main Commission for the Investigation of Nazi War Crimes]

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/holoca ... izocz2.jpg

German policeman shoots individual Jewish women who remain alive in the ravine after the mass execution. (1942)
[Photo credits: Main Commission for the Investigation of Nazi War Crimes]

Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:42 am
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3587da4d46

3.

Document by the local NKVD committee about the discovery of one of three mass grave sites where the citizens of Urechye were buried.



Schematic map drawn to show the site of the same mass grave in Urechye.

http://www.angelfire.com/or/yizkor/urholo.html

List of the Holocaust victims in Urechye.

(shortly thereafter)
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3587da4d46


4.

Evidence from the Estonian State Archives of the Former Estonian KGB (State Security Committee) records relating to war crime investigations and trials in Estonia, 1940-1987.

- Forensic examination of a mass grave near Kovno

- Photograph of mass grave near Tartu

- Military procurator's statement on examination of mass grave site in company of accused Kullamaa, May 23, 1956.
- Sketch of execution site near town of Paide.
- Statement on exhumation of remains, May 23, 1956.
- Forensic examination of remains
- Photos of remains

- Baltic Fleet "Smersh" report on mass killings in Birkeneks woods near Riga
- Forensic report on mass killings in the Riga area, December 12, 1944.
- Photos of killings, bodies, mass graves.

Source: http://www.ushmm.org/

Tue Feb 11, 2003 4:47 am
http://www.air-photo.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3587da4d46

[David Thompson]

For Jonathan Swift -- Your efforts "exposing the dishonesty of so-called Revisionism on a "Holocaust & Warcrimes" forum" are welcome here. Quarrelsome provocations and personal insults are not. Try using facts, logic and wit to discredit an argument, as your namesake did. You'll find that they are more effective weapons.

Your post, with many links and informative documents is also welcome.

[Ebusitanus]

I fear Mr. Swift is not getting the idea...very bad omen for the future to follow.

[Jonathan Swift]

When/if he (or anyone else) does not follow the guidelines, he is told to drop it by David or someone else on the staff, just like you have been in this thread.

I didn't see that happening on this particular occasion.

The first post by David in this thread was directed to all who discussed the other forum in question, so no one was singled out or ignored.

/Marcus

I understand and appreciate that. But your first admonishment and David's second were directed exclusively at myself, which I do not consider justified.

[Jonathan Swift]

Quarrelsome provocations and personal insults are not.

I will not use them if my opponents don't use them either. Please caution Mr. Ebusitanus in this sense.

Try using facts, logic and wit to discredit an argument, as your namesake did.

Haven't I?

You'll find that they are more effective weapons.

See above.

Your post, with many links and informative documents is also welcome.

Thanks.

[Hans]

here are the posts of Max

That's me BTW.

[Jonathan Swift]

here are the posts of Max

That's me BTW.

In that case let me congratulate you again - this time as yourself - on your splendid work.

[Marcus]

Quarrelsome provocations and personal insults are not.

I will not use them if my opponents don't use them either. Please caution Mr. Ebusitanus in this sense.

I see no reason to do that, he was simply expressing concern (and not in an unfriendly manner I might add) that you seemed to be unwilling to listen to the rules as explained by myself and David.

/Marcus

[Jonathan Swift]

Quarrelsome provocations and personal insults are not.

I will not use them if my opponents don't use them either. Please caution Mr. Ebusitanus in this sense.

I see no reason to do that, he was simply expressing concern (and not in an unfriendly manner I might add)

I fear Mr. Swift is not getting the idea...

= "not in an unfriendly manner".

OK, so be it.

that you seemed to be unwilling to listen to the rules as explained by myself and David.

Well, then he should read my posts again, in which I merely expressed discomfort at my impression, right or wrong, that the guidelines were not being enforced even-handedly on both violators.

[Hans]

Hey Jonathan,

I understand very well how you feel and that you are upset about the excesses of Mr. "Free Speech means that only Hannover is free to speak" and his policy of censorship, I feel the same, but you really shouldn't try to argue with the moderators here. As you know, they are all doing a great job. Unlike Hannover, as everybody, who tried to post there, knows.

Cheers,

Hans

[Jonathan Swift]

Hey Jonathan,

I understand very well how you feel and that you are upset about the excesses of Mr. "Free Speech means that only Hannover is free to speak" and his policy of censorship, I feel the same, but you really shouldn't try to argue with the moderators here. As you know, they are all doing a great job. Unlike Hannover, as everybody, who tried to post there, knows.

Cheers,

Hans

OK, Hans.

I ask the moderators to regard those of my objections they consider useful as constructive criticism, and forget about the others.

[witness]

Hans wrote :

Unlike Hannover, as everybody, who tried to post there, knows.

I second this.