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The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

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The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Postby Jan-Hendrik on 16 Oct 2010 20:19

[Split from The Russian side]

Intesting...did you ever questioned youself why polish poland as nation did not idintify itself with its crimes? Why each and everything terrible is automaticly denied? Why the murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen is 'excused' with nice stories about "saboteurs" etc. ...why poland still denies its participation in the Genocide of Germans 1945/46?

Quite funny....If you could look in the mirror and be honest to yourself you might reckognize that you are exactly doing the same that you blaming others for 8O

Thats why discussions with people like you are so extremly fruitless....and boring :roll:



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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 16 Oct 2010 20:24

These "nice stories" find confirmation in German archives, documents of Abwehr, Polish documents, etc.

The "murder" of 5,000 Volksdeutschen is a myth, first of all because not all of them died in Westpreussen. Secondly, because some of them were killed or missing in combat while serving in ranks of the Polish Army. Thirdly, because this number includes all kinds of deaths from all causes - including German minority members who died as the result of Luftwaffe bombings of Polish cities, artillery shelling of Polish cities, etc. Also KIA or executed saboteurs.

Moreover, "Westpreussen" is not even a historically justifiable name of this land. Just like Neuostpreußen (areas of eastern Mazovia), Südpreußen (area of Warsaw), Netze-Distrikt (Cuiavia), Neuschlesien (western part of Cracow Voivodeship), Galizien (Lesser Poland), Königreich Galizien und Lodomerien mit dem Großherzogtum Krakau und den Herzogtümern Auschwitz und Zator (Austrian-occupied Poland), Привислинский кра / Priwislinskij kraj (Russian-occupied Poland), etc. - all of these names were "invented" during the partitions in late 18th century.

And here are detailed numbers from the report about those "5,000 Volksdeutschen":

Civilians + German minority members serving in the Polish army:

A. Dead:

Danzig – Westpreussen – 1.174 + 21 = 1.195
Südostpreussen - 129 + 2 = 131
Warthegau - 1.723 + 58 = 1.781
Oberschlesien - 97 + 54 = 151
Generalgouvernement - 47 + 1 = 48
Ostpolen - 7 + 0 = 7
Reich - 1 + 1 = 2

B. Missing:

Danzig – Westpreussen – 284 + 108 = 392
Südostpreussen - 51 + 10 = 61
Warthegau - 401 + 254 = 655
Oberschlesien - 166 + 405 = 571
Generalgouvernement - 43 + 15 = 58
Ostpolen - 32 + 8 = 40
Reich - 3 + 0 = 3
Unbekannt - 16 + 0 = 16

Total:

Civilians - 3.178 dead + 996 missing (4.174)
Polish army soldiers - 137 dead + 800 missing (937)

why poland still denies its participation in the Genocide of Germans 1945/46?


Interesting that in another thread you denied the existence of something like "Genocide of Poles 1939 - 1945".

Now you claim the existence of some fictional "Genocide of Germans", which was not acknowledged by any international organization. No any international or humanitarian organization recognized the flight and resettlement as genocide.

Also - tell me one thing - how big percent of all Germans died in WW2, and how big percent of all Poles?

So what genocide are we talking about?
Last edited by Peter K on 16 Oct 2010 20:42, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Jan-Hendrik on 16 Oct 2010 20:30

Excellent...just one post by me and you present what I wanted to show :idea:

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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 16 Oct 2010 20:34

I present it, you wanted to show it too, but you failed.

Hmm, what can it be. Let me guess - knowledge?

Edit:

And when it comes to internments of German citizens by Polish authorities in September 1939 - this is one of elements of the martial law and this is completely legal. There are 3 basic elements of the martial law:

- rupture of diplomatic relations
- special treatment of citizens of the opposing side (internment)
- observance of Hague (nowadays also Geneva) conventions
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 23 Oct 2010 01:23

Domen121 wrote:These "nice stories" find confirmation in German archives, documents of Abwehr, Polish documents, etc.

The "murder" of 5,000 Volksdeutschen is a myth, first of all because not all of them died in Westpreussen. Secondly, because some of them were killed or missing in combat while serving in ranks of the Polish Army. Thirdly, because this number includes all kinds of deaths from all causes - including German minority members who died as the result of Luftwaffe bombings of Polish cities, artillery shelling of Polish cities, etc. Also KIA or executed saboteurs.

Moreover, "Westpreussen" is not even a historically justifiable name of this land. Just like Neuostpreußen (areas of eastern Mazovia), Südpreußen (area of Warsaw), Netze-Distrikt (Cuiavia), Neuschlesien (western part of Cracow Voivodeship), Galizien (Lesser Poland), Königreich Galizien und Lodomerien mit dem Großherzogtum Krakau und den Herzogtümern Auschwitz und Zator (Austrian-occupied Poland), Привислинский кра / Priwislinskij kraj (Russian-occupied Poland), etc. - all of these names were "invented" during the partitions in late 18th century.

And here are detailed numbers from the report about those "5,000 Volksdeutschen":

Civilians + German minority members serving in the Polish army:

A. Dead:

Danzig – Westpreussen – 1.174 + 21 = 1.195
Südostpreussen - 129 + 2 = 131
Warthegau - 1.723 + 58 = 1.781
Oberschlesien - 97 + 54 = 151
Generalgouvernement - 47 + 1 = 48
Ostpolen - 7 + 0 = 7
Reich - 1 + 1 = 2

B. Missing:

Danzig – Westpreussen – 284 + 108 = 392
Südostpreussen - 51 + 10 = 61
Warthegau - 401 + 254 = 655
Oberschlesien - 166 + 405 = 571
Generalgouvernement - 43 + 15 = 58
Ostpolen - 32 + 8 = 40
Reich - 3 + 0 = 3
Unbekannt - 16 + 0 = 16

Total:

Civilians - 3.178 dead + 996 missing (4.174)
Polish army soldiers - 137 dead + 800 missing (937)


In total some 8,000 Germans served in the Polish Army after mobilisation in September of 1939:

http://polska-zbrojna.pl/index.php?opti ... Itemid=143

This article gives a bit different data on their casualties (137 killed + 920, instead of 800, MIA):

Title of the article: "Pride and Prejudice":

„Noch ist Polen nicht verloren, so solange wir leben”.*

Ponieważ Małgorzata Schwarzgruber zdecydowała ujawnić (na 71. stronie tej edycji PZ), dlaczego Wehrmacht zmuszony był śpiewać „Wojenko, wojenko, cóżeś ty za pani” oraz inne polskie pieśni wojskowe i patriotyczne, mnie pozostaje zadbać, by druga, trzecia, a nawet czwarta strona tego medalu nie pozostały zakryte.

Jak twierdzi profesor Waldemar Rezmer, w kampanii 1939 roku w Wojsku Polskim walczyło około 8 tysięcy Niemców, obywateli Rzeczypospolitej.
Kontradmirał Józef Unrug (Joseph von Unruh), odznaczony Krzyżem Żelaznym i Krzyżem Złotym Orderu Wojennego Virtuti Militari, podczas I wojny światowej był dowódcą flotylli U-bootów Kaiserliche Marine, a w czasie II – dowódcą polskiej Obrony Wybrzeża. W niewoli, w której spędził całą wojnę, nie używał języka, znanego mu lepiej od polskiego: „1 września 1939 roku zapomniałem, jak się mówi po niemiecku”. Podobnie postąpił porucznik Gerhard Büllow, oficer 17 Pułku Ułanów Wielkopolskich, odmawiając zwolnienia z oflagu Woldenberg: „Jestem polskim oficerem”. Major Józef Trenkwald, zastępca dowódcy 9 Pułku Strzelców Konnych, odmówił podpisania volkslisty i do końca pozostał w niewoli.

Ponad tysiąc Niemców walczących w szeregach Wojska Polskiego nie wróciło do domów. Zginęło 137, a 920 uznano za zaginionych. Poległy w bitwie nad Bzurą Karl Fischer spoczywa na polskim cmentarzu wojennym w Bednarach, Alfons Kümmel – w Zamościu, porucznik Alfred Breyer zginął w obronie Warszawy, porucznik Franz Bürger ciężko ranny zmarł w szpitalu w Radomiu, porucznik Aleksander Ernst – w szpitalu w Zamościu, porucznik Rudolf Fischer – w Sochaczewie, a porucznik Johannes Zenker zginął w nalocie Luftwaffe pod Łowiczem.

Trzecią stroną medalu jest stosunek polskich władz wojskowych do niemieckich rekrutów. Niemcy mogli ukończyć najwyżej szkołę podchorążych rezerwy (szczególną atencją arystokratycznych rodów Wielkopolski i Pomorza cieszyło się rzecz jasna Centrum Wyszkolenia Kawalerii w Grudziądzu). Poza urodzonym pod Berlinem admirałem Unrugiem żaden Niemiec nie zrobił w Wojsku Polskim błyskotliwej kariery. Nie rekrutowano ich do żandarmerii, łączności i innych wrażliwych hufców. Większość służyła na wschodzie, w Korpusie Ochrony Pogranicza. Obawiano się bowiem o ich lojalność na zachodnich rubieżach.

Rozczepienie historycznego światła dostarcza wreszcie kolejnego widma. Otóż III Rzesza w dwojaki sposób odnosiła się do służby Niemców w Wojsku Polskim. Początkowo zachęcała ich, by nie unikali poboru, gdyż dzięki niemu mogą zdobyć przeszkolenie wojskowe za polskie pieniądze. Z obecności rodaków w Wojsku Polskim zadowolona była również Abwehra. W 1939 roku organizacje niemieckie w Polsce zaczęły jednak wzywać do dezercji. Wielu z tych, którzy posłuchali, było później przewodnikami i doradcami w niemieckich jednostkach liniowych, atakujących Rzeczpospolitą. „To właśnie oni byli w grupie dywersyjnej, która sfingowała polski napad na niemiecką radiostację w Gliwicach”, twierdzi profesor Rezmer.

Jeszcze przed wojną władze wojskowe Rzeczypospolitej trafnie oceniały, że Niemcy są żołnierzami zdyscyplinowanymi, chętnymi do ćwiczeń, jednak zdecydowanie odporniejszymi od Ukraińców i Białorusinów na wszelkie próby polonizacji lub choćby neutralizacji niechętnego stosunku do Polski. Tak jak Polacy w Wehrmachcie, trzymali się razem, a między sobą mówili wyłącznie po niemiecku. Po wybuchu wojny mieli dylemat moralny. Większość wypełniła swój żołnierski obowiązek, lecz po zakończeniu działań bojowych została szybko (najczęściej z zachowaniem stopni wojskowych) wcielona do Wehrmachtu.

Cały ów polsko-niemiecki wojenny galimatias jest wybornym antidotum na uproszczenia i stereotypy. „Beutekameraden” (zdobyczni towarzysze broni) występowali po wszystkich stronach, wszystkich frontów, wszelakich wojen. Warto o tym pamiętać, jeśli znów zostaniemy wzięci za „ciemny lud” i będziemy straszeni dziadkiem z Wehrmachtu lub babcią z Luftwaffe.

*„Jeszcze Polska nie zginęła, póki my żyjemy”.


And here another article (interview) on those 8,000 Germans in the Polish army can be found:

http://wyborcza.pl/1,75480,8329310,Niem ... &startsz=x

The same data on losses as in 1st article is given (137 KIA + 920 MIA = 1057 who didn't return their homes).

Here also a translated version (English) of the above article can be found:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... -Army-1939.
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Re: The Russian side

Postby thom on 24 Oct 2010 12:08

And here are detailed numbers from the report about those "5,000 Volksdeutschen"

Could you please provide the source for this report? Thanks in advance.
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 24 Oct 2010 14:13

Hi Thom!,

Thanks for your opinions on this book and especially for link to Gniazdowski's work! I'll read it.

When it comes to your question:

Could you please provide the source for this report? Thanks in advance.


This report was originally issued by Gräberzentrale für die ermordeten Volksdeutschen. It was published in "Documenta occupationis Teutonicae" volume VII, Instytut Zachodni. You will find it also in Archiwum II wojny światowej i Biblioteki Instytutu Zachodniego (Archive of WW2 and the Library of Institute for Western Affairs).

When it comes to German minority repealing from the duty of military service and escaping to Germany:

The article quoted above says:

Otóż III Rzesza w dwojaki sposób odnosiła się do służby Niemców w Wojsku Polskim. Początkowo zachęcała ich, by nie unikali poboru, gdyż dzięki niemu mogą zdobyć przeszkolenie wojskowe za polskie pieniądze. Z obecności rodaków w Wojsku Polskim zadowolona była również Abwehra. W 1939 roku organizacje niemieckie w Polsce zaczęły jednak wzywać do dezercji. Wielu z tych, którzy posłuchali, było później przewodnikami i doradcami w niemieckich jednostkach liniowych, atakujących Rzeczpospolitą. „To właśnie oni byli w grupie dywersyjnej, która sfingowała polski napad na niemiecką radiostację w Gliwicach”, twierdzi profesor Rezmer.


Which translates:

The III Reich had twofold attitute toward Germans in the Polish Army. At first it was encouraging them to not avoid recruitment, because thanks to it they could get military training for Polish money. Also Abwehra was satisfied with the presence of countrymen in the Polish Army. However in 1939 German organizations started to call for desertion. Many of those, who obeyed, were later guides and advisers in German first line units attacking Poland. "It is they who were in the sabotage group, which simulated the Polish attack on Gleiwitz radio station", professor Rezmer says.

And this fragment from the thread "Germans in Poland and in the Polish Army":

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=125448

Według MSW do 16 sierpnia 1939 r. władze wojewódzkie wystąpiły o pozbawienie obywatelstwa polskiego 6375 osób uchylających się od obowiązku służby w WP. Z woj. poznańskiego zbiegło w okresie styczeń-czerwiec 1939 r. - 2628 osób, z woj. śląskiego w okresie maj-lipiec 1939 r. - 5506 osób.


Which translates:

According to MSW (Ministry of Internal Affairs) until 16 August 1939 voivodeship authorities concluded for deprivation of citizenship of 6375 persons repealing from the duty of service in WP (Polish Army). In period January-June 1939 from the poznanskie voivodeship 2628 persons escaped [to Germany], from the silesian voivodeship in period May-July 1939 - 5506 persons [escaped to Germany].

Also Janusz Ryt in his book "Bitwa Pszczyńska 1939" ("Battle of Pszczyna 1939") writes about this:

Pages 45 - 46:

In the Summer Polish borderland was flooded by a wave of "tourists" from Germany acquainting themselves with the area of future combats. Units were increasing their strength and were being moved toward the Polish border under the pretext of maneuveres and alleged threat of Polish attack. (...) Also demand for guides appeared, young people who knew the terrain. At first they were being searched among emigrants from the Polish side after the division of Upper Silesia. However, the number of proper candidates, that is young men after military training, was in this circle too low. That's why an action of obtaining candidates also on the other side of the border started, from members of the German minority in Upper Silesia. At the beginning those were departures of civilians - reservists of the Polish Army, however soon also escapes of active service soldiers started. Using candidates who completed military training in the Polish Army allowed to conscript them into units of the Wehrmacht just after short adjustment training. This action was being conducted throughout entire Summer and ended suddenly in the middle of August, 2 weeks before the planned war [115].

[115] Unique speed of reaction and precision of the Wehrmacht is usually explained by the presence of local guides recruited from local population, attached to entering forces. This is only part of the truth, because sources indicate that units entering the Polish Upper Silesia most probably already had trained guides in their own ranks. Alongside with quite rigid and precise plan of operations such thing is possible. Unusual precision of tank movements near Rybnik cannot be explained by maps or plans. Only someone who lived there and knew the terrain could move so precisely through mined hurdles. In case of three villages this is documented. According to inhabitants of Jankowice, among German tank crews that entered this village, were 3 young local inhabitants. One of them escaped to the Reich in July (as a curiosity I will add that the description of combats in Jankowice written by the local ZBOWID* veteran organization is written from the perspective of... an attacking Tanker). Also in the forefront of German units attacking Kobiór was son of a local forester from Kobiór. And photos of the Pszczyna Landmannschaft reveal that also among units capturing Pszczyna one young inhabitant of Pszczyna was serving. I don't know how situation looked like in other localities, but in my opinion it is not coincidence but element of intentional action.

*ZBOWID = Związek Bojowników o Wolność i Demokrację (Association of Fighters for Freedom and Democracy).

--------------------------------

Coming back to Volksdeutche casualties and alleged crimes on Volksdeutsche:

Conservative German version of events in Bydgoszcz is based almost entirely on accounts and memoirs gathered in 1950s and 1960s by Landsmannschaft of Western Pomerania. These accounts are gathered in the Federal Archive in Bayreuth - these are practically the only "primary sources" (if accounts written 10 - 20 years after facts can be even considered "primary sources") which say about crimes on Volksdeutsche in Bydgoszcz. But even among these accounts we can find 4 accounts which confirm the Polish version of events (that is - that German saboteurs opened fire to Polish military forces). These are accounts of Kurt Eichstädt, Johannes Katrynski, Hubert Hill and Walter Graff. Many other accounts also confirm that Polish regular units were under fire, but they don't explicitly say that German saboteurs were responsible, they rather claim Polish civilians fired on their own military (sic!).
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Michate on 25 Oct 2010 02:30

Conservative German version of events in Bydgoszcz is based almost entirely on accounts and memoirs gathered in 1950s and 1960s by Landsmannschaft of Western Pomerania. These accounts are gathered in the Federal Archive in Bayreuth - these are practically the only "primary sources" (if accounts written 10 - 20 years after facts can be even considered "primary sources") which say about crimes on Volksdeutsche in Bydgoszcz. But even among these accounts we can find 4 accounts which confirm the Polish version of events (that is - that German saboteurs opened fire to Polish military forces). These are accounts of Kurt Eichstädt, Johannes Katrynski, Hubert Hill and Walter Graff. Many other accounts also confirm that Polish regular units were under fire, but they don't explicitly say that German saboteurs were responsible, they rather claim Polish civilians fired on their own military (sic!).


Nope, German authorities collected a lot of infotrmation on the massacres during the war.
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 25 Oct 2010 15:13

What exactly is "German authorities" and what exactly is "lot of information.

BTW - when it comes to German historians not only Gunther Schubert in his "Das Unternehmen Bromberger Bluttsontag. Tod einer Legende" was able to deal with the truth and wrote it, there were also others whom I mentioned on this forum. And yet in 1959 this story was proved to be a legend by a German historian:

F. H. Gentzen, Die Legende "Bromberger Blutsonntag" und die deutsche fünfte Kolonne in Polen [in:] September 1939, red. B. Spiru, Berlin (Ost) 1959
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Michate on 26 Oct 2010 03:32

What exactly is "German authorities" and what exactly is "lot of information.


You might inform yourself. Some sources are mentioned here:

http://www.jf-archiv.de/online-archiv/f ... TR3=&STR4=

and here:

http://www.jf-archiv.de/online-archiv/f ... TR3=&STR4=

Berlin (Ost) 1959


Have you ever taken a look into "real existing socialist" DDR historiography?
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 26 Oct 2010 11:15

You didn't provide links to governmental websites but to websites of some right-wing nationalist organization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junge_Freiheit

And they also don't provide any sources apart from those that I already know.

Strangely they forgot to mention that the 5,000 missing and killed number includes 1,000 Germans killed and missing in action in combats against the Wehrmacht while serving in the Polish army.
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Michate on 26 Oct 2010 11:53

Well, even taken for granted you know all these sources, why then do you make false claims it is all based on memories collected 20 or 30 years post events?
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Re: The Russian side

Postby Peter K on 27 Oct 2010 10:03

And what other sources did they mention apart from these memoirs, report on 5,000 and some faked Polish sources?
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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Postby Michate on 27 Oct 2010 11:09

Why don't you simply read the linked text, there are several sources given. You just told us you know all these, not?
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Re: The murder of about 5000+ Volksdeutsche in Westpreußen

Postby Marcus Wendel on 04 Nov 2010 20:07

The above discussion was split off and moved here from the WW2 in Eastern Europe section.

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