Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

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Marcus
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Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#1

Post by Marcus » 12 Mar 2011, 19:17

The below was moved from the "Political development between Winter War and Continuation War" thread.
Tero wrote:And when it comes to the the Finnish concentration camps: you are hung up on propaganda and the images of the Nazi death camps. You do not see what they really were, internment camps where the Finns incarcerated foreign nationals in their custody. Not unlike the British and the US who interned foreign nationals in camps. And you do not admit the fact the most of the deaths in Finnish camps occurred during the first winter and early summer among people who were undernourished to begin with.
Philip S. Walker wrote:
And when it comes to the the Finnish concentration camps: you are hung up on propaganda and the images of the Nazi death camps.
Absolutely not.
You do not see what they really were, internment camps where the Finns incarcerated foreign nationals in their custody.
As far as I know those camps was a part of at huge German scheme of moving people from all over East Europe around, so that in future people belonging to what the Germans called "Superior Races" would be rulers and the "Sub-Humans" would be their slaves. Danish volunteers were promised to be masters of big estates in Russia, "Værnebønder" (Wehrmact Farmers) as it was called.
Not unlike the British and the US who interned foreign nationals in camps. And you do not admit the fact the most of the deaths in Finnish camps occurred during the first winter and early summer among people who were undernourished to begin with.
I know all these facts, but we are still dealing with severe human suffering caused by official Finland participating in a grand-scale Nazi plan with regard to ethnic control.
Tero wrote:
Absolutely not.
Sure you do. They were under international laws internment camps. The facts they were called concentrations camps at the time is what throws you off.

BTW: did you know that they used Cyclon B in the Finnish internment camps ?
As far as I know those camps was a part of at huge German scheme of moving people from all over East Europe around, so that in future people belonging to what the Germans called "Superior Races" would be rulers and the "Sub-Humans" would be their slaves.
What is your source on this ?
Tero wrote:
Philip S. Walker wrote:May I also point out that I do NOT think the Finnish society was Nazi-minded; at the very most I have said is that I find it hard to ignore that from the beginning of 1941 a Fascist party was invited to participate in the Cabinet. And I have never believed nor do I suggest for a moment that the Finnish KZ camps in East Karelia were planned as extermination camps.
BS ! With all due respect. You posted just now a remark stating:
As far as I know those camps was a part of at huge German scheme of moving people from all over East Europe around, so that in future people belonging to what the Germans called "Superior Races" would be rulers and the "Sub-Humans" would be their slaves.
How do you explain THAT as not meaning the Finnish KZ camps in East Karelia were planned as extermination camps ?

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#2

Post by Philip S. Walker » 18 Apr 2011, 11:14

(Split from "Mannerheim was afraid of being convicted of war crimes")

I think in that case we should probably go on and look at the Finnish camps for Russian civilians and soldiers in the areas occupied by the Finnish army during the so-called Continuation War. Different sources call them different names, either concentration camps, internment camps or transit camps - and of course some of them were simply POW camps.

Here are some memories from one of the prisoners in Petrozavodsk:
Former detainee laments lost childhood

By Jussi Konttinen

Valentina Andreyeva, who lives in Petrozavodsk, spent three years of her early youth in a Finnish concentration camp. This is the story of her imprisonment.
"I was 11 years old when the war began. In December 1941 we were taken by truck from our home on the island of Klimetsk across the ice of Lake Äänninen to Petrozavodsk. We were not told where we were going. They only said that we would live well. Our house and our cattle were left behind in our home village

We were sent to the fifth camp of Petrozavodsk. Nine of us lived in a small room: my grandparents, my mother, and six children.
For food we were given a glass of rye flour each week, and we ate the thin gruel that we made out of it. Everyone thought about food all the time, where to get a piece of bread. Sometimes the soldiers would slip us a biscuit. They weren’t all bad - but Veikko was a tormentor.

We would sneak out of the camp under the barbed wire to look for food. I would wash pots for the military cook, and he gave me porridge.
Once I was with another girl crawling under the barbed wire when Veikko saw us. He called two soldiers for help and started shooting at us. A bullet flew past me. We ran as hard as we could, and a prisoner by the name of Kuzmich hid us in the woodpile of his barrack. We stayed there until the next day.

Many in the camp were ill. My grandmother, my grandfather, and my brother died in 1942 and 1943. Those who fell ill did not speak. They just lay still and died. At one point 12 people died in a single day.
I didn’t have to go to work right away. Then me and the girls my age were ordered to unload a barge filled with wood. As I raised a large log, I fell into the vessel and broke my arm and my leg. Later I wove slippers.
We worked from eight in the morning until eight in the evening, six days a week. During the day we had to finish four pairs of the slippers. If we didn’t get them done, we had to continue at home, or else we were punished. My brothers got 20 lashes each.
My older brother had made a toy pistol out of a window frame. The younger one had helped me get away from Veikko.

A school was set up in the camp toward the end. They didn’t take me there because I was too old. We were never told what would happen to us. They just took us and kept us prisoner.
None of us thought about the future. The only thought was, where to get something to eat that moment.
We were not able to play. We had no childhood. That hurts us."

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Former ... 1978358274

And here's some more to look at:

In August 1944, before the cessation of hostilities, an Extraordinary State Commission report was released by the Soviets, from which the following extracts are drawn.

Directly after the invasion of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic the Fascist invaders proclaimed the Soviet people war prisoners and confined them to special concentration camps. Six such camps were set up in Petrozavodsk, with about 25,000 women, children and old people confined in them. Concentration camps for civilians were also set up in Medvezhyegorsk, near the town of Olonets, on the Ilyinskoye State Farm and in other parts of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic.

A most brutal regime of humiliation, exhausting labour beyond
human strength, torture and violence was instituted by the Finns for the inmates of all camps. The camps were surrounded with high fences and barbed-wire entanglements. At 7 a.m. the "prisoners", irrespective of sex, age or state of health, were driven under escort to heavy, exhausting work. The "prisoner" Soviet citizens confined in the camps were issued 100 or 200 grams of bad-quality bread, and once in a while 200 grams of frozen potatoes or rotten horse-flesh sausage.

The guards of the camp, headed by Col. Rolf Schield, subjected to torture all confined Soviet citizens, without exception. The Finnish slave-owners beat up the prisoners for failure to fulfil their quotas of work, for incorrect stacking of firewood or for failure to display sufficient respect for the guards, or they were beaten or tortured without any pretext at all. As a measure of punishment prisoners were given no food for two or three days, or placed in solitary cells.

The Finnish hangmen subjected Soviet civilian "prisoners" to incredible torture. The Petrozavodsk resident Novikov, who testified before the Investigation Committee witnessed how, in Camp No. 2 the Finns selected 30 inmates, allegedly war prisoners. They drove them to Leo Tolstoy Street and subjected them there to excruciating torture, They burned the heels of the "prisoners" with a red-hot iron, beat them with rubber clubs and then shot 15 of them. The remaining 15 persons were sent back to Camp No. 2 after 25 days.

The Finnish war prisoner Private Vilkho Kurgila, of the 1st Company, 2nd Battalion of the Bicycle Brigade of the Lagussa Armoured Tank Division, stated at his interrogation:

"When we entered the town of Petrozavodsk in autumn, 1941, we found no residents there. All of them had scattered in the neighbouring forests. The Finnish authorities issued an order demanding of the population that they immediately return to the town under pain of death. Special detachments were formed to apprehend the residents and drive them back to Petrozavodsk. Thus they gathered the population and confined it into camps. One camp was set up in Kukovka, another in a place known as `The road to Solomenchugi', and a third camp was built behind the radio-station mast.

"All people, old and young, were driven under escort to perform hard work. The appearance of these people was terrible - they looked entirely wretched and harassed. Very many of them could not stand such a life, and died. While the local residents languished in the camps, we Finnish soldiers had a good time in Petrozavodsk as well as in the neighbouring villages. The entire property of the local population and large food stocks remained in their houses. All this property was proclaimed ownerless, and of course we did not waste time and took everything we liked. We sent many things to our relatives in Finland. Especially active in these doings were soldiers of the 3rd Company of our battalion, but others did not lag behind them either."

In the camps the Finns tortured not only adults but even children, who were also considered "war prisoners". The Finnish war prisoner, Private Toivo Arvid Laine, of the 13th Company, 20th Infantry Brigade, stated at his interrogation:

"Early in June 1944 I was in Petrozavodsk. At Petrozavodsk
railway station I saw a camp for Soviet children. Children from five to 15 years of age were confined there. Their appearance was terrible. These were little living skeletons, wearing rags which defied description. The children were so exhausted that they had even forgotten how to cry, and looked at everything with indifferent eyes."

The Finnish slave-owners forced the "prisoner" children along with the adults to do work beyond their strength. The Finnish Private Aho Sulo Johannes, of the 2nd Independent Battalion of Coastal Defence, witnessed how

"during summer, 1943, over 200 persons, chiefly adolescents, were driven from neighbouring villages to the area of Tolbui and the driven wharf for construction of roads. All these persons worked as prisoners guarded by Finnish soldiers."

In September 1943 the 10-year-old boy Lenya Zuyev, who was kept in Camp No. 2, tried to climb the wire fence. A Finnish sentry noticed Zuyev, fired at him without warning and wounded the boy in the leg. When Lenya fell down the Finn fired at him a second time. The wounded Zuyev with great difficulty crawled to the territory of the camp.

The witness Lakhina, who was confined in Camp No. 5, informed the Committee about the appalling living conditions of the camp inmates.

"Six or seven families lived in rooms of 15 to 20 square metres each. There was no bath-house or laundry in the camp. People took water from a ditch in which human corpses lay about. Soap was not issued at all. The `prisoners' were lice-infested. The inhuman living conditions in the camp resulted in the development of epidemic diseases such as scurvy, dysentery and typhus."

Hunger and mass epidemics caused an extremely high mortality in all concentration camps: dozens of people died daily, and their bodies were taken to a cemetery two or three times a week. Here is what a witness told about this. The eye-witness Alexei Prokofyevich Kolomensky, who was kept in Camp No. 5 in Petrozavodsk from December I, 1941, to June 28, 1944, testified

"I worked as a cart-driver, and had to carry dead from the camp to the `Peski' cemetery located five kilometres from Petrozavodsk. The dead were carried there every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. According to my records 170 men died in May 1942, 171 in June, 164 in July and 152 in August. Altogether 1,014 inmates died in our camp from May to December 31, 1942. At the beginning of 1942 there were about 7,500 prisoners in the camp, and at the moment of our liberation by the Red Army 4,500 remained there."

The Committee received a letter from former inmates of Petrozavodsk concentration camps. They wrote:

"For nearly three years we were surrounded with two rows of barbed-wire entanglements and watch-towers, and guarded by armed sentries. We were starved and beaten with lashes for the slightest fault. The Commandant of Camp No. 2, Lt.
Salavaara, also the Commandant of the Vilki Camp Lakoonen, displayed particular brutality.

"Special camps were set up in Kutizhma, Vilga and Kindosovo for 'law-breakers', chiefly children, young people and women. Living conditions here were no better than in mediaeval dungeons. Here Soviet people were starved, in winter they were driven to work in the forest wearing only torn rubber goloshes on bare feet. Here, the camp inmates ate mice, frogs and dog carrion, thousands of prisoners died of dysentery, typhus fever and pneumonia, receiving no medical assistance. The doctor-beast Kolyhmainen, instead of treating the prisoners, beat them with stick and fists, and threw typhus patients out into the frost."

This letter is signed by 146 Soviet citizens, former inmates of Petrozavodsk concentration camps.

Evidence of the inhuman brutality with which the Finnish scoundrels treated Soviet civilians confined in concentration camps is provided by the following far from solitary instance. A letter of the ex-student of Helsinki University, Private Salminen, of the 2nd Frontier Chasseurs Battalion, fell into the hands of the Committee. In this letter he wrote:

"Yesterday two Russians were shot because they refused to greet us. We shall give it to these Russians!"

As a result of forced labour, disease, torture and shootings over 7,000 Soviet citizens were exterminated in the Petrozavodsk camps. A Committee presided over by the Deputy of the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R., Dildenkin; the Chairman of the Petrozavodsk City Soviet, Stepanov Professor of Petrozavodsk University, Bazanov; with participation of medico-legal experts-Chief Medico-Legal Expert of the Karelian Front I Major of Medical Service, Petropavlovsky; Chief Pathologist of the Karelian Front; Lt.-Col. of Medical Service; Doctor of Medical Science, Ariel; and others - having examined the "Peski" cemetery in Petrozavodsk, discovered 39 group graves and ascertained that no less than 7,000 bodies were buried in all these graves.

As a result of the examination of exhumed bodies, the medico-legal experts ascertained that the majority of the buried persons died of exhaustion. Some bodies had wounds through their skulls inflicted by firearms.

In September 1941 the Fascist Command set up Camp No. 17 in the town of Olonets of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic, and confined there Red Army men and junior officers taken prisoner its the Svir sector of the front. The territory of this camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed-wire fences up to two metres high. Each barrack in the camp was also fenced off from the rest by barbed wire. The number of war prisoners kept in the camp varied from 600 to 1,000.

The Camp Commandant, Lieut. Soininen Toivo, used to come to the barracks while drunk and beat up the war prisoners himself, and also ordered his subordinates to beat them. The Commandant's assistants Ingman and Salmelo, also the examining Magistrate of the camp, Lieut. Schepalis and Military Official Schmidt, without any pretext, systematically and brutally beat up Soviet war prisoners with clubs and lashes.

Soviet war prisoners who in the opinion of the Finnish-Fascist hangmen worked badly were placed on a high tree-stump with their hands stretched out, and forced to maintain this posture for 30 to 90 minutes. In winter this kind of torture of war prisoners resulted in the freezing of their extremities and in grave diseases.

The administrative personnel and guards of the camp not only tortured, tormented and starved Soviet war prisoners, but also shot them for the slightest "offence". The former Soviet war prisoner Belan stated that one of the Finnish guards shot a war prisoner with a tommy-gun burst because he approached the barbed-wire entanglement. For this murder the Camp Commandant Alapies promoted the murderer to Corporal.

According to the eye-witness Feklistov, in summer 1943, the war-prisoner Bykov on his way back from work began to pick mushrooms and fell behind his group. The Commandant Soininen and the guard Hervonen met Bykov on the road on his way back to the camp and shot him with pistols.

When the Olonets district was captured by Red Army troops a registration file for sick war prisoners was found at the hospital of the Olonets war prisoners' camp. This file supplies a vivid picture of extermination of Soviet war prisoners by the Finns. Entries in the file show that in the first six months of 1942 alone, out of a total of 1,888 registered patients, 588 died in hospital as a result of general weakness, exhaustion and oedomata. The bodies of war prisoners who died, or were tortured to death, were buried in a common trench dug specially for this purpose 100 metres from the camp.

The Committee of medico-legal experts exhumed and examined bodies which had been discovered in the cemetery near Olonets Camp No. 17. Medico-legal examination of the bodies revealed that the subcutaneous fatty cellular tissue, as well as the cellular tissue of the internal organs, was exhausted or completely absent, which testified to extreme exhaustion caused by protracted starvation. Some of the bodies had traces of shot-wounds in the head or thorax.

As a result of examination of the bodies and the testimony of witnesses it has been established that the Finnish-Fascist hangmen starved Soviet war prisoners, subjected them to torture, and also shot them.

[...]

The Extraordinary State Commission has ascertained that along with the Finnish Government and Army Command the following persons are responsible for all the crimes committed by the Finnish-Fascist invaders on the territory of the Karelo-Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic.

The Chief of the Administration of Eastern Karelia, Lt.-Col. Kotelainen; the Chief of Staff of the Administration of Eastern Karelia, Maj.-Gen. Arrajuri; the Commander of the 8th Division of the Finnish Army, Maj.-Gen. Polojarvi; the Commander of the 4th Finnish Infantry Regiment, 8th Division, Col. Vistora; Maj.-Gen. Pojari; Col. Rolf Schield; the Military Commandant of Petrozavodsk, Capt. Laurikainer the Assistant Commandant, Lt. Elomoa; the Commandants of concentration camps in Petrozavodsk, Vilki Lakoonen, Lt. Salavaara, Maj. Kuurema, Lt. Kallio, Lt. Tolonen Pentti, Lt. Nuotto Jussi, Errikainen, Kangas; the Assistant Commandants of camp, Ingman, Airola and Seppela; Chief of the camp office, Saraioki; the Commandants of Olonets Camp No. 17, Lt. Alapies, Lt. Soininen Toivo ; Assistants of the Camp Commandant, Salmelo, Pelkonen; the examining magistrate, Lt. Schepalis; the Military Official Schmidt; the interpreters, Karpelainen and Pistilainen; the Chief of Kindosovo Jail, Capt. Toivonen; his assistants, Kovala and Sihvonen; the Commandant of Kindosovo Camp, Sergt. Vikhula; Assistant Commandants of Camp No. 2, Sergts. Lindholm Veikko, Allagonen Penti, Sivonen Emil, Julliluomma Mati, Vuori Arvo, Kassimaki Tukio, Lamber Veikko; the guard, Hervonen, Corporal Inkel Koivosala; the guard, Jullimanola Edverd, Lt. Niemi.

All of them must appear before the court of the Soviet people and bear severe punishment for the crimes which they have committed.

http://rodohforum.yuku.com/topic/3553


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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#3

Post by Philip S. Walker » 18 Apr 2011, 13:52

There is supposed to be a discussion about these matters on this forum: http://www.militaar.net/phpBB2/

Unfortunately, it's in Estonian ...

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#4

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 18 Apr 2011, 22:44

I, personally, have a lot of questions of administrative nature on the subject .
Government of Finland ,obviously had to make beforehand some sort of plans in regards to non-Finnish population in occupied territories ( and by “beforehand” I mean prior to the hostilities) . So what were they exactly? What was planned exactly? Food , camps, medical services, etc? Who was responsible for the planning? Who was responsible for the management on the ground? Was there some redundancy? Was there some centralized agency? To whom exactly were problems reported and through what channels? What was the informational turnaround –a sin when the problem was reported how fast was it addressed by higher ups, and how fast the solution was implemented?

For instance flogging of the civilians was apparently rather uniformly widespread as a punishment. Was it something that came from Capital or was it just simultaneous decision by the commanders on the ground?

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#5

Post by Philip S. Walker » 19 Apr 2011, 00:56

It looks as if the most important book on this subject is Helge Seppälä's "Suomi miehittäjänä 1941–1944" SN-kirjat 1989. Unfortunately, it is in Finnish only, which I can't read.

Seppälä is a Finnish historian who was a soldier in the Finnish army at the time and was in the area. However, he is highly critical of the Finnish side in all of this - as far as I can make out. The book was also used as the basis of a half hour documentary by film director Claes Olsson around 1991. There's a link to it on the net but it doesn't seem to work at the moment.

I don't know if there are Finnish members out there with enough courage to give us some highlights from the text in English translation, including answers to Oleg's highly relevant questions. Would be much appreciated.

Meanwhile, there a link here in Russian which looks interesting and which Oleg perhaps will enlightens us on:

http://pobeda.gov.karelia.ru/Veteran/memory.html

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#6

Post by michael mills » 19 Apr 2011, 01:29

Yesterday's post by Philip S Walker contains a list of Soviet allegations of wrongdoing by Finnish forces in East Karelia.

There are two reasons why those allegations should not be accepted at face value.

In the first place, the Soviet Government had a proved track record of falsifying data about crimes allegedly committed by its enemies. The prime example is that of the Katyn mass graves, where, after the recapture of the area by Soviet forces early in 1944, the corpses buried there were re-exhumed and falsified forensic tests carried out for the purpose of proving that the victims had been killed in 1941 by German forces.

In addition, local people who had testified in 1943 to an international commission that the victims had been executed in 1940 by Soviet personnel were rounded up and "persuaded" to confess that they had given false testimony, and that the killings had actually been perpetrated in 1941.

On the basis of that massive falsification, carried out with great technical skill by Soviet scientists and other experts, any claims by Soviet authorities to have exhumed and forensically examined the corpses of Soviet victims of Finnish crimes must be treated with extreme care.

In the second place, the Soviet Government had a very strong motive to demonise its Finnish opponent in any way possible, given that it bore the guilt for the Soviet-Finnish conflict, which was the result of its unprovoked aggression against Finland.

The Soviet Union had invaded Finland at the end of 1939, seized parts of its territory, and expelled the ethnic Finnish population, including the inhabitants of the second-largest Finnish city Viipuri. In 1940 it was preparing to invade Finland again for the purpose of occupying the entire country; Stalin asked Hitler for his acquiescence in that invasion.

Thus, the Finnish participation in the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 can be seen as a defensive pre-emptive strike, with the aim of preventing further Soviet aggression and also winning back Finnish territory that had been seized by the Soviet Union.

Given that situation, the Soviet Union had a motive to falsify the historical truth by portraying itself as the innocent victim of aggression by Finnish "fascists", and one way of doing that was to demonise the Finns by accusing them of various crimes.

It also needs to be remembered that there were many Finnish Communists and Soviet sympathisers; since Finland was a democratic country, Communists were not totally suppressed, unlike the situation in Germany and other German allies. Accordingly, statements coming from individual Finns about alleged crimes by the Finnish authorities need to be examined closely in regard to their origin; did those statements come from a totally unbiassed source, or was the person making them a Soviet sympathiser. The statements may be entirely true, but on the other hand they may be confected to some extent.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#7

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Apr 2011, 02:11

michael mills wrote:Yesterday's post by Philip S Walker contains a list of Soviet allegations of wrongdoing by Finnish forces in East Karelia.

There are two reasons why those allegations should not be accepted at face value.

In the first place, the Soviet Government had a proved track record of falsifying data about crimes allegedly committed by its enemies. The prime example is that of the Katyn mass graves, where, after the recapture of the area by Soviet forces early in 1944, the corpses buried there were re-exhumed and falsified forensic tests carried out for the purpose of proving that the victims had been killed in 1941 by German forces.

In addition, local people who had testified in 1943 to an international commission that the victims had been executed in 1940 by Soviet personnel were rounded up and "persuaded" to confess that they had given false testimony, and that the killings had actually been perpetrated in 1941.

On the basis of that massive falsification, carried out with great technical skill by Soviet scientists and other experts, any claims by Soviet authorities to have exhumed and forensically examined the corpses of Soviet victims of Finnish crimes must be treated with extreme care.

In the second place, the Soviet Government had a very strong motive to demonise its Finnish opponent in any way possible, given that it bore the guilt for the Soviet-Finnish conflict, which was the result of its unprovoked aggression against Finland.

The Soviet Union had invaded Finland at the end of 1939, seized parts of its territory, and expelled the ethnic Finnish population, including the inhabitants of the second-largest Finnish city Viipuri. In 1940 it was preparing to invade Finland again for the purpose of occupying the entire country; Stalin asked Hitler for his acquiescence in that invasion.

Thus, the Finnish participation in the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 can be seen as a defensive pre-emptive strike, with the aim of preventing further Soviet aggression and also winning back Finnish territory that had been seized by the Soviet Union.

Given that situation, the Soviet Union had a motive to falsify the historical truth by portraying itself as the innocent victim of aggression by Finnish "fascists", and one way of doing that was to demonise the Finns by accusing them of various crimes.

It also needs to be remembered that there were many Finnish Communists and Soviet sympathisers; since Finland was a democratic country, Communists were not totally suppressed, unlike the situation in Germany and other German allies. Accordingly, statements coming from individual Finns about alleged crimes by the Finnish authorities need to be examined closely in regard to their origin; did those statements come from a totally unbiassed source, or was the person making them a Soviet sympathiser. The statements may be entirely true, but on the other hand they may be confected to some extent.


So to sum it up – witness’s statements have more value when they are corroborated? Preferably it should be done by another unbiased observer? That is great. Out of curiosity and for the sake of uniformity – will you post something along these lines when there would be allegation of mistreatment of Germans by Soviets ?


Meanwhile

http://www.iremember.ru/grazhdanskie/kh ... lovna.html
Finnish did not touch those who followed their instructions. And those who didn't submit, got flogged. For example, my brother to who was eleven years old back then. There was seven of us , the oldest was seventeen the youngest was three months old. Katya often was ill , and brother Vasily during day went under a barbed wire for the raspberries. And each time he went he was getting caught and flogged.


http://www.iremember.ru/grazhdanskie/os ... tsa-2.html
..And he [the neighbor] told that Irina had a lot of bread, so my aunt Pasha should know. Then came two Finns with an interpreter and asked about the grain. Pasha said, "I do not know where it is hidden." If she really knew, she would have told them, she had nothing to lose. She said she did not know. They brought her into the barn. She was put on the ground and flogged with ramrods. Two of [the Finns], stripped her, put her on the belly and flogged her. Pasha, before she went unconscious, was shouting: "I know, I do not know." … She had a baby 3 months before that and was still breastfeeding. They beat her up so bad that the only she could do it, was to push herself up on the elbows and another woman would put the baby under. She could not seat or lay on her back..


The translation is approximate. If someone wants to do a better job they are most welcome to do so, especially there more statements like that.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#8

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 19 Apr 2011, 02:22

In 1940 it was preparing to invade Finland again for the purpose of occupying the entire country; Stalin asked Hitler for his acquiescence in that invasion.

Thus, the Finnish participation in the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 can be seen as a defensive pre-emptive strike, with the aim of preventing further Soviet aggression and also winning back Finnish territory that had been seized by the Soviet Union.
Mr Mills of course entitled to his vision however strange that might be. That being said - was Finland military action ever called preemptive as such by the Finnish Government? As far as I recall, they used badly organized Soviet air raids as Casus belli and in effect claimed that they were -victims of aggression in progress. This line, of course, by definition eliminates the need for "preemption".
Last edited by Oleg Grigoryev on 19 Apr 2011, 03:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#9

Post by Philip S. Walker » 19 Apr 2011, 02:49

Michael Mills: In 1940 it [the Soviet Union] was preparing to invade Finland again for the purpose of occupying the entire country.
All we know of for certain is a plan that never got even halfway off the ground and which the Soviets themselves regarded as irrelevant. http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=171252
Stalin asked Hitler for his acquiescence in that invasion
Definitely not. Molotov (not Stalin) told Hitler to get his troops out of Finland, pointing out that their presence was against the Ribbentrop pact. Subsequently, the Kremlin guaranteed as part of a larger suggested pact that it would keep peaceful relations with Finland if the Germans got out (the Germans ignored the offer and the pact was never signed). You have been reading the poor English and American translations of the German transcript from the Molotov-Hitler meeting, sometimes presented with highly misleading underlinings and headings inserted. The original German and Russian transcripts have been discussed in detail on this thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5&t=174764

In any case, all this relates to the secret part of the Molotov-Hitler talks in November 1940. Since this was secret it can hardly be used as an excuse for the Finnish army to invade Soviet territory and set up concentration camps.

Nearly all European nations have a blemished history regarding those years, one way or another, and they generally admit it to the world and apologise for the damaged they did. It seems it is now finally Finland's turn to admit their part too, as shown here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... .google.ie

A shame we have to wait until 2014 and with the current political situation in Finland, God know what will happen to critical historical research in the near future.
Oleg: That being said - was Finland military action ever called preemptive as such by the Finnish Government?´
The crossing of the old border was claimed to be preemptive, or at least necessary to set up a usable defense line. Interestingly, this was also the Soviet argument for a border adjustment before the Winter War.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#10

Post by michael mills » 20 Apr 2011, 07:14

Definitely not. Molotov (not Stalin) told Hitler to get his troops out of Finland, pointing out that their presence was against the Ribbentrop pact. Subsequently, the Kremlin guaranteed as part of a larger suggested pact that it would keep peaceful relations with Finland if the Germans got out (the Germans ignored the offer and the pact was never signed). You have been reading the poor English and American translations of the German transcript from the Molotov-Hitler meeting, sometimes presented with highly misleading underlinings and headings inserted. The original German and Russian transcripts have been discussed in detail on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=174764
This point was addressed on that thread by Hanski, who wrote:
This exchange shows that Molotov insisted the USSR should have no reason to wait for a half or a full year, and neither of the parties should have their hands tied about whatever they did within their respective spheres of interest. Molotov suggested dealing with Finland as it had done before with Estonia and Bessarabia. As Hitler specifically emphasized that there must be no war against Finland, Molotov then protested claiming this was a new element introduced to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact that had not been originally agreed upon, i.e., he was disappointed and felt that in all fairness the USSR should have had free hands to use all measures necessary, including war if needed.

The fact that Hitler insisted starting war against Finland will have severe consequences to German-Russian relations most likely prevented the USSR from proceeding further to increasing pressure against Finland and ultimately attacking Finland for a second time in late 1940/early 1941.
The above represents the historical truth. Molotov, obviously acting on Stalin's instructions, was asking Hitler to agree that the Soviet Union should have a free hand to do what it liked with Finland, since that country was in the Soviet sphere of interest according to the secret protocol to the Soviet-German non-aggression pact of 23 August 1939. He cited Estonia and Bessarabia as examples of what the Soviet Union wanted to do with Finland if given a "free hand", ie invade it.

Remember that in late 1939, Stalin expected Finland to knuckle under when presented with an ultimatum to allow the establishment of Soviet military bases on its territory, in the same way as Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia had knuckled under. He was surprised when Finland rejected the ultimatum, and concluded that a show of force would be needed, but only a relatively minor one, and that Finland would immediately collapse. That is why insufficient force was deployed at the start of the Soviet invasion in December 1939, allowing the Finns to achieve some unexpected initial victories.

So all the kerfuffle about whether or not Molotov was talking about "war" with Finland is beside the point. Molotov, on Stalin's behalf, was seeking Hitler's agreement to Soviet forces entering and occupying Finland. If there was no resistance, as there was not when Soviet forces occupied the Baltic States and Bessarabia in June-July 1940, there would not be war. If the Finns once again resisted, as they had in 1939, there would indeed be war.
In any case, all this relates to the secret part of the Molotov-Hitler talks in November 1940. Since this was secret it can hardly be used as an excuse for the Finnish army to invade Soviet territory and set up concentration camps.
As Juha Tompuri pointed out on the linked thread, the Finnish Government was informed by Germany in May 1941 about what had transpired at the German-Soviet talks in November 1940. Accordingly, it would have known that the Soviet Union had been seeking to invade Finland once again, and that Hitler had warned it against such an action. The Finnish Government would have realised that Stalin was Finland's enemy and Hitler was its friend, protecting it from Soviet aggression.

That knowledge gave the Finnish Government all the justification it needed to join Germany in a strike against Soviet military power in order to remove the clear and present Soviet threat to Finnish independence and democratic way of life.

PS I read German fluently, and have no need of English translations, in particular not the dodgy ones made by Philip S Walker.

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Oleg Grigoryev
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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#11

Post by Oleg Grigoryev » 20 Apr 2011, 07:36

That knowledge gave the Finnish Government all the justification it needed to join Germany in a strike against Soviet military power in order to remove the clear and present Soviet threat to Finnish independence and democratic way of life.
so was it ever used as on official reason for Finland involvement any Finnish official at the time?

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#12

Post by Panzermahn » 20 Apr 2011, 08:18

Oleg Grigoryev wrote:
That knowledge gave the Finnish Government all the justification it needed to join Germany in a strike against Soviet military power in order to remove the clear and present Soviet threat to Finnish independence and democratic way of life.
so was it ever used as on official reason for Finland involvement any Finnish official at the time?
"There were also opponents of these expansionist war objectives. They came mainly from among the Social Democracts and the Swedish-speaking section of the population. Most Social Democrats vehemently dissociated themselves from any war of conquest. In their opinion, Finnish rights ended at the 1939 frontier. Väinö Tanner, who had been forced under Soviet pressure to resign from the government in August 1940, had returned as soon as the new war broke out as Minister of Trade and Industry. The first thing he did was to issue a public warning about expansionist aims and jingoism. The war was being fought to save the country's existence, freedom and democratic system, He declared."
Source: Page 92, Chapter 6 (Finland's War of retaliation),Finland in the Second World War: Between Germany and Russia, Olli Vehviläinen (2002 Palgrave)

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#13

Post by Philip S. Walker » 20 Apr 2011, 11:10

@Michael Mills

Go back and read the discussion about the Molotov-Hitler meeting properly, instead of cherry-picking and repeating arguments that have long been buried underground. If you have something new to add this the discussions about the Russian invasion plans and the Molotov-Hitler meeting, you can put them on the relevant threads, but so far all you have presented here are some well-established misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#14

Post by David Thompson » 20 Apr 2011, 15:34

The topic is "Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia." Please stay on it.

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Re: Finnish concentration camps in East Karelia

#15

Post by Philip S. Walker » 22 Apr 2011, 21:56

Found this:
When the Finnish Army during the Continuation War occupied East Karelia 1941–1944 that was inhabited by ethnically related Finnic Karelians (although it never had been a part of Finland — or before 1809 of Sweden-Finland), several concentration camps were set up for Russian civilians. The first camp was set up on 24 October, 1941, in Petrozavodsk. The ultimate goal was to move the Russian speaking population to German-occupied Russia in exchange for any Finnic population from these areas, and also help to watch civilians.

Population in the Finnish camps:

* 13,400 — December 31, 1941
* 21,984 — July 1, 1942
* 15,241 — January 1, 1943
* 14,917 — January 1, 1944
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... .google.ie

Also, in 1991 the Swedish-Finnish film director Claes Olsson made a half hour documentary based on Helge Seppälä's book, titled in English "The Memory of Greater Finland". http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1657948/

I tried to see if it was possible to download it from the net and found a site, which unfortunately turned out to be a dead end and seemingly also virus infected, so watch out.

A Swedish book on this issue is said to be on the way.

A slightly disorganised list of the individual camps and where they were situated:
#

5. The concentration camp no. 5, was located in the railway village (in the years of the war - Krasnaya Gorka)

6. The concentration camp no. 6, located on A stock exchange

7. The concentration camp no. 7, was located at The transit exchange

allmaster74 1 week ago
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Additionally, there were seven concentration camps in petrozavodsk:

1. The concentration camp no. 1, located on Кукковке (now - The old Kukkovka)

2. The concentration camp no. 2, was located in the former homes Of north point

3. The concentration camp no. 3, located in the former home Of the ski factory

4. The concentration camp no. 4, was located in the former buildings of plant Onego

allmaster74 1 week ago
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11. The Concentration Camp Semerekov-Sviridov

12. The Concentration Camp Tahuilov-Zvezdin

13. The Concentration Camp Heposuo

14. The Concentration Camp Paalu

15. The Concentration Camp Vidlitsa

16. The Concentration Camp Of The State Farm

17. The Concentration Camp Ilyinskoye

allmaster74 1 week ago
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6. The Concentration Camp Abakumov

7. The Concentration Camp Khabarov-Kleeva

8. The Concentration Camp Klimanov-Lisinski

9. The Concentration Camp Lyapsin-Nuts

10. The Concentration Camp Orlov-Simenkov

allmaster74 1 week ago
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The list of concentration camps and prisons on the territory Of the republic of karelia

1. The central prison -Kindasovo

2. Territorial prison -Kestenga

3. The Concentration Camp Kinnasvaara

4. The Concentration Camp Kolvasyarvi

5. Camps for internally displaced persons (1 CVA Eastern Karelia)

allmaster74 1 week ago
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... .google.ie

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