Slaughter of Polish professors in Lwow/Lemberg - 1941

[michael mills]

By the way, ethnic Poles did collaborate with Germany in the former Polish territories of the Soviet Union, as Gerlach has shown in relation to Belorussia.

In Belorussia, Polish partisans (whether Armia Krajowa or not is not clear - Gerlach does not say) fought with the German army against Soviet partisans. They received rations from the Germans, and were treated in German field hospitals when wounded.

The German authorities regarded the ethnic Poles of Belorussia as more "loyal" than the Belorussians, who tended to be neutral or pro-Soviet.

[Davey Boy]

Mills,

Stop babbling and show me

a)

It appears from the material on the link provided (which has the flavour of an extreme Polish nationalist source) that the German security police regarded the Polish academics executed as collaborators with the former Soviet occupiers.

A quote from the link which suggests this.

b) Evidence that the exectuted professors collaboratd with the Soviets.

c) That the material comes from an extremist source.


It's quite simple really. No long winded replies, no irrelevant data, just the the proof. Can you actually do that?

[viriato]

Another point to be made is that the Germans according to the report targeted 25 members of the faculty. However only the faculty of the University consisted of 158 members. The Germans were not arresting at random. They were targeting specific persons. Why? Unfortunally the report leaves us in the dark on this respect (as in many others...).

The report of course tries to obfuscate telling us that somewhat the Germans only knew of those 25 people. But of course the members of the faculty were not secret. Anyone could know all of them if this was to be the case.

[viriato]

BTW the same site that supports this report says that in the thirties Lwów had 300 thousand inhabitants, of which 50% were Polish, 30% Jews and 15% Ukrainians. Compare to the report where it is stated that after the Soviet occupation the Ukrainian population of Lwów swelled from 5%…

They were warmly greeted there by the Ukrainian part of the population, which swelled from 5% in 1939 to much higher number during Soviet occupation...

and

W latach trzydziestych Grod Lwa liczyl ponad 300 000 mieszkancow, w tym przeszlo 50% Polakow, 30% Żydow i okolo 15% Ukraincow.

See more on

http://www.lwow.com.pl/h3.html

This report is turning really interesting… 8)

[David Thompson]

My Polish is a little rusty. Is there any chance of translation for those of us who lack fluency?

[viriato]

Hi David Thompson

For translating Polish texts use this:

http://www.translate.pl

[David Thompson]

Thanks viriato!

[Davey Boy]

BTW the same site that supports this report says that in the thirties Lwów had 300 thousand inhabitants, of which 50% were Polish, 30% Jews and 15% Ukrainians. Compare to the report where it is stated that after the Soviet occupation the Ukrainian population of Lwów swelled from 5%…

They were warmly greeted there by the Ukrainian part of the population, which swelled from 5% in 1939 to much higher number during Soviet occupation...

and

W latach trzydziestych Grod Lwa liczyl ponad 300 000 mieszkancow, w tym przeszlo 50% Polakow, 30% Żydow i okolo 15% Ukraincow.

Well, I may be able to take some of the mystery out of the report.

Why were the Germans particular about who they targetted? We won't really know unless we get our hands on Nazi files.

However, the suggestion that the said professors collaborated is completely idiotic.

It is idiotic for the reason that at least some of those who were shot took part in battles against the Bolsheviks.

See more on

http://www.lwow.com.pl/h3.html

This report is turning really interesting… 8)

Yeah, right, very interesting.

It seems that the Germans used collaboration with the Soviets as a pretext?

It cannot be ruled out that Prof. Groër owed his release to his prewar acquaintance with the Dutchman Pieter v. Menten who appeared in July 1941 in Lwów in an SS uniform and belonged to the SS group of the General Schöngarth. Menten, as was said above, bought in prewar Poland an estate and was eager to make acquaintances among the Polish elite. He knew the homes of Lwów professors and was able to indicate which families were to be liquidated in order to rob their possessions. The assumption that Menten could have saved Groër has been supported by the evidence given by Groër at a trial held after the war by a military court in Amsterdam, at which Menten was accused of collaborating with the Nazis. The Dutch prosecutor Peters disclosed in 1980 that Groër told the court that Menten behaved well towards the Poles and Jews. However, it became known, but only in 1980, that Menten, together with other members of the Gestapo, murdered Poles and Jews in 1941 at his estate in Urycz and Podhorodce.

Or perhaps they were afraid of certain individuals and their families because of their past records as Polish patriots?

I know that Roman Longchamps de Berier, for example, was in charge of the Committe for the Defence of Lwow back in 1939.

[Davey Boy]

BTW the same site that supports this report says that in the thirties Lwów had 300 thousand inhabitants, of which 50% were Polish, 30% Jews and 15% Ukrainians. Compare to the report where it is stated that after the Soviet occupation the Ukrainian population of Lwów swelled from 5%…

They were warmly greeted there by the Ukrainian part of the population, which swelled from 5% in 1939 to much higher number during Soviet occupation...

and

W latach trzydziestych Grod Lwa liczyl ponad 300 000 mieszkancow, w tym przeszlo 50% Polakow, 30% Żydow i okolo 15% Ukraincow.

See more on

http://www.lwow.com.pl/h3.html

This report is turning really interesting… 8)

Viriato,

Grod Lwa and Lwow may be two different things. It might be like comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Chicago itself?

In any case, I wouldn't discredit the original source, the book, by looking for inconsistencies on the web site. Surely you know how unreliable websites can be.

[michael mills]

Davey Boy wrote:

Grod Lwa and Lwow may be two different things. It might be like comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Chicago itself?

There were about 100,000 Jews in Lwow in 1939.

The passage quoted by Viriato states that the mysterious "Grod Lwa" had a population of 300,000, of which 30% were Jews, ie just under 100,000.

Since that number is the same as the number of Jews recorded as living in Lwow, it follows that Grod Lwa must be Lwow.

[Davey Boy]

Davey Boy wrote:

Grod Lwa and Lwow may be two different things. It might be like comparing the suburbs of Chicago to Chicago itself?

There were about 100,000 Jews in Lwow in 1939.

The passage quoted by Viriato states that the mysterious "Grod Lwa" had a population of 300,000, of which 30% were Jews, ie just under 100,000.

Since that number is the same as the number of Jews recorded as living in Lwow, it follows that Grod Lwa must be Lwow.

Gee, and I thought we were discussing the slaughter of Polish professors in Lwow, and not the demographics of the city?

So can anyone actually discredit the source/information in question, or are you just going step around that issue?

Show me that the source is dodgy, that the info regarding the Polish professors is wrong, and even some evidence that they were guilty of collaborating with the Soviets.

Anyone?

[Somosierra]

Monument on the Wulecki Hill to murdered profesors of Lwow

http://www.kresy.co.uk/lwow_wuleckie.html

[viriato]

To Davey Boy:

Another problem of the report is that it states that Hans Frank alleged spoke about not having immediately killed all the academy of Kraków upon the conquest of that city by the Germans in 1939. The Germans were after all trying to kill all the intelligentsia in Poland so we are told...

The whole affair would have taken a different course if we had settled the matter on the spot, i.e. liquidate the Cracow professors. I must insist, therefore, that from now on no one will be sent to concentration camps in the Reich but liquidated then and there or 'punished according to the law'.

But when the Germans had a second chance to kill all the academia, this time in Lwów they "missed" again the opportunity and tried to arrest 25 people (only the Lwów University had 158 members). Why? And why those 25 particularly? The report simply does not give us any credible answer.

[Roberto]

To Davey Boy:

Another problem of the report is that it states that Hans Frank alleged spoke about not having immediately killed all the academy of Kraków upon the conquest of that city by the Germans in 1939. The Germans were after all trying to kill all the intelligentsia in Poland so we are told...

Which doesn't mean they killed all those they killed in 1939.

[…]The losses for Polish society caused by the Katyn crimes, especially among its elite, were very high. The army lost 45 % of its officers. The consequences of these Soviet actions are comparable to those of the destruction of the Polish elite by the National Socialists. In the same year [1940] the latter killed 3,500 leaders and leading representatives of Polish society within the scope of the "Action A-B" in the General Government.[…]

From the article on the Katyn killings I translated on the thread

The Soviet War Crimes against Poland: Katyn 1940
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopi ... 8656236f01

What’s this "so we are told" supposed to mean, by the way?

[…] Heydrich organized five SS Einsatzgruppen (task forces) which moved into the occupied territories immediately behind the army with orders to identify, arrest and ‘eliminate’ the Polish leadership, local as well as national. In private, Hitler declared:

<<Whatever we can find in the shape of an upper class in Poland is to be liquidated; should anything take its place, it will be placed under guard and done away with at an appropriate time.>>

[Footnote: Quoted by Helmut Krausnick, ‘Hitler und die Morde in Polen’, in VfZ, April 1963, p. 203.]

‘Upper classes’ in practice meant officers, officials, judges, landowners, businessmen, teachers, intellectuals, priests - anyone with the capacity for leadership. Once arrested they were herded into camps where thousands were executed. On 17 October Hitler repeated:

<<The increased severity of the racial struggle permits of no legal restriction; the methods used ... will ensure that the Polish intelligentsia cannot throw up a new leader class.>>

[Footnote: Ibid, p. 202. See also Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik, 1939-1945 (Stuttgart 1961), page 22][…]

File note by Martin Bormann about a conversation with Hitler

Geheim!

Berlin, den 2.10.1940
Bo-An.

Aktenvermerk
[…] Am 2.10.1940 entspann sich nach Tisch in der Wohnung des Führers eine Unterhaltung über den Charakter des Gouvernements, über die Behandlung der Polen […]
Der Führer nahm nun grundsätzlich zu dem Gesamtproblem in folgender Weise Stellung:

[…]

Wir hätten auf der einen Seite überbesiedelte Industriegebiete, auf der anderen Seite Mangel an Arbeitskräften in der Landwirtschaft usw. Hierfür würden die polnischen Arbeiter gebraucht. Es sei also durchaus richtig, wenn im Gouvernement eine starke Übersetzung an Arbeitskräften vorhanden sei, damit von dort aus wirklich alljährlich die notwendigen Arbeiter in das Reich kämen. – Unbedingt zu beachten sei, daß es keine „polnischen Herren“ geben dürfe; wo polnische Herren vorhanden seien, sollten sie, so hart das klingen möge, umgebracht werden.

[…]

Noch einmal müsse der Führer betonen, daß es für die Polen nur einen Herren geben dürfe und das sei der Deutsche; zwei Herren nebeneinander könne es nicht geben und dürfe es nicht geben, daher seien alle Vertreter der polnischen Intelligenz umzubringen. Dies klinge hart, aber es sei nun einmal das Lebensgesetz.

[…]

My translation:

Secret!

Berlin, 2.10.1940
Bo-An.

File note
[…] On 2.10.1940 there was a conversation about the character of the General Government and the treatment of the Poles at the Führer’s place after the meal[…]
The Führer now took the following fundamental position in regard to the overall problem:

[…]

We have on the one hand over-populated industrial areas, on the other side a lack of agricultural hands etc. For this the Polish workers are needed. It is thus completely right if in the Government there is a large excess of labor force so that indeed the necessary workers come into the Reich every year. – Under all circumstances it must be observed that there must be no “Polish masters”; where the are Polish masters, as harsh as this may sound, they must be bumped off.

[…]

Again the Führer must point out that for the Poles there may be only one master, and that is the German; two master alongside each other there may not be and thus all representatives of the Polish intelligence are to be bumped off. This sounds harsh, but it is the law of life.[…]

[viriato]

Roberto wrote:

Which doesn't mean they killed all those they killed in 1939.

I believe you wanted to say "which doesn't mean they killed all those they wanted to kill in 1939", right?

What’s this "so we are told" supposed to mean, by the way?

You have already answered it by quoting Allan Bullock

Alan Bullock (Hitler and Stalin. Parallel Lives, 1993 Fontana Press, London, pages 701 and following) wrote:
[…] Heydrich organized five SS Einsatzgruppen (task forces) which moved into the occupied territories immediately behind the army with orders to identify, arrest and ‘eliminate’ the Polish leadership, local as well as national. In private, Hitler declared:

<<Whatever we can find in the shape of an upper class in Poland is to be liquidated; should anything take its place, it will be placed under guard and done away with at an appropriate time.>>

[Footnote: Quoted by Helmut Krausnick, ‘Hitler und die Morde in Polen’, in VfZ, April 1963, p. 203.]

‘Upper classes’ in practice meant officers, officials, judges, landowners, businessmen, teachers, intellectuals, priests - anyone with the capacity for leadership. Once arrested they were herded into camps where thousands were executed. On 17 October Hitler repeated:

<<The increased severity of the racial struggle permits of no legal restriction; the methods used ... will ensure that the Polish intelligentsia cannot throw up a new leader class.>>

[Footnote: Ibid, p. 202. See also Martin Broszat, Nationalsozialistische Polenpolitik, 1939-1945 (Stuttgart 1961), page 22][…]

as well the one of Martin Bormann

Quote:
Secret!

Berlin, 2.10.1940
Bo-An.

File note
[…] On 2.10.1940 there was a conversation about the character of the General Government and the treatment of the Poles at the Führer’s place after the meal[…]
The Führer now took the following fundamental position in regard to the overall problem:

[…]

We have on the one hand over-populated industrial areas, on the other side a lack of agricultural hands etc. For this the Polish workers are needed. It is thus completely right if in the Government there is a large excess of labor force so that indeed the necessary workers come into the Reich every year. – Under all circumstances it must be observed that there must be no “Polish masters”; where the are Polish masters, as harsh as this may sound, they must be bumped off.

[…]

Again the Führer must point out that for the Poles there may be only one master, and that is the German; two master alongside each other there may not be and thus all representatives of the Polish intelligence are to be bumped off. This sounds harsh, but it is the law of life.[…]

In sum the NSDAP leadership had big designs but their deeds were not exactely on the same scale. Fortunately I would say, for many people were kept alive for the duration of war that in other circunstances would have been killed. Why? We might think in a number of factors such as the chaotic aspect of the NSDAP administration, their incoherent policies, the particular needs in each place and time, different agendas of each NSDAP politician and each military, economical or administrative official, etc.

Whatever the reasons might have been this only shows that the NSDAP leadership had not constructed an efficient let alone coherent policy for the occupied territories and Poland in particular. But no other thing should have been expected after all from those who had the upper hand on those years...

Finally I reiterate the question I made on previous posts. Why those 25 Poles in particular?