HOLOCAUST DENIAL

[john h]

With the kind permission of David and Marcus i would like to ask all contributors to this forum for there opinions on what is Holocaust Denial

[JamesL]

It would be helpful to me if YOU presented YOUR definition of Holocaust Denial.

[john h]

Whilst no one denys the Holocaust happened 67 years after the event and evidence we have now which they did not have then i have to seriously doubt the figure 6 million and i now also doubt the evidence by Rudolf Hoss that brought the Nurenburg Tribunal to come to the conclusion that 6 million really died if you stay with me on this Jamest i will present to you even the Historians agree with this

[JamesL]

I'll pass.

[Ypenburg]

From memory the 6-million figure has been discussed many times here already, historians with other figures have been mentionned here many times. Leaves the question what it has to do with "all contributors to this forum for there opinions on what is Holocaust Denial".........

[LWD]

Whilst no one denys the Holocaust happened 67 years after the event

Actually some do. We even get them here occasionally. They don't last long.

... i have to seriously doubt the figure 6 million ...

Few consider 6 million to be an exact number by any means. Depending on just what's included and how you do the numbers they may be greater or lesser.

That said it looks very much to me like this is shaping up to be an opinion thread. Such are discouraged in the forum in general and in this area in particular.

[john h]

David Matas, Senior Counsel for the "League for Human Rights" of the Zionist B'nai B'rith organization, says:
"The Holocaust was the murder of six million Jews, including two million children. Holocaust denial is a second murder of those same six million. First their lives were extinguished; then their deaths. A person who denies the Holocaust becomes part of the crime of the Holocaust itself."

Should someone be considered a "Holocaust denier" because he does not believe - as Matas and many others insist - that six million Jews were killed during World War II? This figure was cited by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945-1946. It found that "the policy pursued [by the German government] resulted in the killing of six million Jews, of which four million were killed in the extermination institutions

Yet if that is so, then several of the most prominent Holocaust historians could be regarded as "deniers." Professor Raul Hilberg, author of the standard reference work, The Destruction of the European Jews, does not accept that six million Jews died. He puts the total of deaths (from all causes) at 5.1 million. Gerald Reitlinger, author of The Final Solution, likewise did not accept the six million figure. He estimated the figure of Jewish wartime dead might be as high as 4.6 million, but admitted that this was conjectural due to a lack of reliable information

[Laurence Strong]

Meh 5.1, 4.6, 6 million! Does the total number really matter? Suffice to say millions were killed. Sheesh

[David Thompson]

john h -- For forum purposes, take a look at the rules, which are posted for all to see at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962:

B. Holocaust Denial

Holocaust denial is not permitted by the second rule of this forum. The policy, and the reasons for it, may be seen at:
A note on denial
viewtopic.php?t=10881

The essential aspects of the holocaust are well-known. They have been established through more than fifty years of court proceedings in a large number of countries. The evidence consists of eyewitness testimony from victims and bystanders, the confessions and admissions of perpetrators, photographs, an abundance of documents, physical evidence, forensic studies and judicial findings.

Legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, or isolated items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, etc. These questions do not affect the fact that millions of persons were deliberately murdered, nor does it alter the cumulative and overwhelming evidence of who committed the murders.

The rules of this forum regarding holocaust denial also apply, for example, to the mass murders of Armenians during WWI, and the interwar famine in the Ukraine. It is permissible to question whether these and similar events were the result of a deliberate government policy, and legitimate questions may be raised about the veracity of individual witnesses or their motives, individual items of evidence, or matters of interpretation of policy, but it is not permissible to deny that the events occurred.

Nonconforming posts are subject to deletion without warning. Serious breaches of these rules are punishable by banning the poster.

You also asked:

i would like to ask all contributors to this forum for there opinions on what is Holocaust Denial

Our rules prohibit opinion posts and threads, and since that's what you're looking for, I'll close it out:

3. Opinions

Since the purpose of this section of the forum is to exchange information and hold informed discussions about historical problems, posts which express unsolicited opinions without supporting facts and sources do not promote the purposes of the forum. Consequently, such posts are subject to deletion after a warning to the poster.

The same reasoning applies to opinion threads.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

For threads discussing the number of Jewish victims of the holocaust, see:

Number of Victims of the Holocaust - Reference Thread
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=101471
'The most reliable Holocaust statistics on web'
viewtopic.php?t=101014
The Korherr Report
viewtopic.php?t=397
Jewish emigration figures from Germany up to 1939
viewtopic.php?t=880
Death rates, official and unofficial, in pre-war KL's
viewtopic.php?t=948
Year-Wise details of holocaust victims
viewtopic.php?t=2584
Countrywide details of holocaust victims
viewtopic.php?t=2583
6 million
viewtopic.php?t=1402
Holocaust question
viewtopic.php?t=11327
6 million killed in holocaust? maybe more?
viewtopic.php?t=12680
6 million?
viewtopic.php?t=3084
13 million died in death camps?
viewtopic.php?t=35150
How many Jews were killed for real?
viewtopic.php?t=33429
Only 3 million Jews in Europe before the war?
viewtopic.php?t=13675
Number of Jews living in countries occupied by Nazis
viewtopic.php?t=52690
Official number of kills at concentration camps
viewtopic.php?t=43317