New Nazi cases on 'Demjanjuk principle'.

[Gorque]

For those interested, the criminal complaint against Johann Breyer can be found here: http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/230281 ... ode=scroll.

Two other documents can be located in the associated Washington Post article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morn ... auschwitz/

[little grey rabbit]

Thanks, it appears that Breyer joined the Auschwitz guards due to a mass desertion by some Ukrainian guards. Something I had not heard of before, so I did a quick google to learn about it.

On 3/4 VII.1943, at night, sixteen Ukrainians, who were being trained as guards by SS Untersturmführer Lange, escaped with guns and plenty of ammunition. As a consequence all Ukrainian guards were arrested. The deserters took off in the direction of Gross-Chelm and were attempting to cross the river Przemsza to hide in the forests in the region of Jaworzno. The military police from neighbouring locations pursued and a regular battle ensued between the escaped Ukrainians and the police, who in the end got confused as to who was the escapee and who was not and suffered casualties through "friendly fire". Auxiliary troops had to be summoned from Katowice and Myslowice including SS-men manning armoured vehicles and a pitched battle took place. There were 2 SS-men killed, 4 were seriously wounded and 8 lightly wounded. On the Ukrainian side there were 11 killed, 4 were captured and were subsequently tortured to death. A few days later Untersturmführer Lange was also arrested.

http://members.shaw.ca/escapinghell/rap-en.htm

Since the guards he was replacing had been either shot or tortured to death for refusing to work at Auschwitz, might this have had some bearing on the realistic options open to him?

[Gorque]

Thanks for information and link LGR.

I've located a pdf of the US 3rd circuit Court of Appeals ruling on Johann Breyer from November 2003 for anyone interested.

http://www2.ca3.uscourts.gov/opinarch/024226p.pdf

[Paul Lantos]

Since the guards he was replacing had been either shot or tortured to death for refusing to work at Auschwitz, might this have had some bearing on the realistic options open to him?

Ukrainian guards were undoubtedly treated as second class citizens, seeing as many had started out as POWs. It is hard to find evidence of German guards being summarily killed or tortured. Redeployment to the front was more likely (and maybe they thought of it as a death sentence, but there is a difference).

[Ypenburg]

Ukrainian guards were undoubtedly treated as second class citizens, seeing as many had started out as POWs. It is hard to find evidence of German guards being summarily killed or tortured. Redeployment to the front was more likely (and maybe they thought of it as a death sentence, but there is a difference).

I doubt if they would be treated any other way, had those German guards put up a fight like the Ukrainians did.

[wenty]

Paul:

Nothing to do with cynicism, it's a fact. If these people were worthwhile prosecuting, then it should have been done 50, 60, 70 years ago when they would have had to serve a punishment to suit the crime - especially if they had been captured by the Soviets.

Nowadays, with the passing of Simon Wiesenthal and the like, we've got new generation "Nazi Hunters" who seek to cover themselves in glory by tracking down old men who might have been a guard here or there at some point or another and prosecuting them as well.

I tell you what it's like: it's like the cop pulling you up and ticketing you for doing 65 in the 60 zone, while a gang drives past in another car with a bootload of illegal drugs and guns. That's what it is. If these people trying to prosecute 90 year olds spent half as much energy trying to track down real, modern day criminals, the world would be a much safer place.

I will agree with you about survivors, however. I do know several of them, and everybody deals with their experiences during that time in a different manner. It's the same with anyone in any traumatic experience.

Cheers,
Adam.

[wolfguy]

Little Grey Rabbit

How do you know that Breyer's recruitment into guard service at Auschwitz was directly related to the mass desertion of the Ukrainian guards there?


Wolfguy

[little grey rabbit]

Wolfguy, its in the formal extradition request Gorque linked to. It states he was transferred to Auschwitz from Buchenwald to replace the Ukrainians.

Just as an aside, one of the two documents in the Washington Post reproduces was not held to be genuine by the courts during the denaturisation trials in the 90s.
In the OSI internal history reproduced by the New York Times - see note 29 on page 190. The OSI disagreed with this finding. It is oddly specific in giving in his unit description as Auschwitz II, which might not have meant much in Presov or wherever the document was produced.

BTW, the denial flirter (for want of a better description) Furtherglory quotes Breyer as not always affirming the gassings

“Not the slightest idea, never, never, ever,” Breyer told the Philadelphia Inquirer in 1992. “All I know is from the television. What was happening at the camps, it never came up at that time.”

http://furtherglory.wordpress.com/2014/ ... -criminal/

If I were Breyer I would be suggesting he always thought two of the crematoria were actually bakeries then sweetly suggest that perhaps he may be suffering from dementia and hence unfit to stand trial. Just a thought

[wolfguy]

Little Grey Rabbit

Thanks for pointing out the link that Gorque provided. I found the part you referred to about Breyer's unit replacing the Ukrainians.

Thanks again.

[history1]

As I already mentioned (don´t remember if it was here or on another social media website):
He´s charged with "complicity of murder (§27)" and "murder (§211). § 52 (concurrence of offenses) and §53 (multiplicity of offenses) are rather a bonus point for Breyer! §27 became since years time - barred, no danger for Breyer himself he´ll leave the court as a free man.
And "good luck!" to find documents or witnesses who can verify the different needs for murder:

Murder is who kills another person because of
- lust to kill, satisfaction of the sexual drive, avarice, or other base motives
- insidiously, cruel or with devices dangerous to public safety or
- to enable or hide another criminal acts

Source: http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/211.html

[Kajtmaz]

What happened with Breyer?
(Is "John Demjanjuk" isolated case?)

[David Thompson]

Kajtaz -- You asked:

(Is "John Demjanjuk" isolated case?)

What research steps have you already taken to answer your question? From the forum and section rules:

In the research sections of the forum, we ask the posters to be reasonably well-prepared, and not ask others for information which they could easily get for themselves. The purpose of these sections of the forum is to provide a place where historical matters can be intelligently discussed. It is not a research service.

Noncomplying posts are subject to deletion after warning.

If you have a question, please let the readers know what steps you have taken to answer it when you post the inquiry. This will eliminate misunderstandings and give responding posters a better idea of your familiarity with the subject.

[Kajtmaz]

Johann Breyer died on July 22 2014 "just hours before a U.S. magistrate judge said he can be extradited to Germany to face murder charges for his alleged Holocaust-era crimes". http://articles.philly.com/2014-07-25/n ... on-hearing

[Sergey Romanov]

An important article on this issue is at

https://nebenklage-auschwitz.de/2015/07 ... -juli-2015
https://auschwitz-trial.org/category/cornelius-nestler/

Worth reading (even if I don't necessarily agree with the main argument, for it arbitrarily stops at the camp level - why can't it be extended to the whole of the Third Reich - and then, analogously, to other countries that, for example, start criminal wars financed by their citizens?)