Red Army rape row

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Gwynn Compton
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#16

Post by Gwynn Compton » 30 Apr 2002, 23:46

If I do remember correctly, Hitler's men never had any sort of plan(even less an order from the Führer) to say explicitly and openly that all Russians
The Sonderkammando groups following the Ostheer show of the planning to perpetrate warcrimes in the Soviet Union.

My point was not that the Germans planned to kill all Russians, merely that they planned to commit warcrimes in the East, most notably against Jews, but as has been pointed out, the Communists as well got their share of it too.

I imagine that had Germany won the war, the next people on Hitler's extermination list may well have been the Slavic people of Eastern europe.

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Benoit Douville
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#17

Post by Benoit Douville » 01 May 2002, 02:56

Hitler considered the Slavs as subhumans so I guess if Germany had won the war he would have used them to work twelve hour every day in the factory or in the field very unfortunately :( But I doubt he would have exterminated them.

Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 12 Oct 2003, 04:43, edited 1 time in total.


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mike262752
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#18

Post by mike262752 » 01 May 2002, 07:09

HETMAN wrote:Just curious, why this interest in Soviet crimes? You're Indian, right?
would you rather him ignore the Russian crimes and focus on the "evil Germans"???

medorjurgen wrote- Which is not exactly the same as the "pre-planning" of atrocities by the Soviet high command

who cares if they're pre planned. They happened, anyone who says they didnt is ignorant, or blind by their hatred of Germans.

Gwynn Compton wrote- Lets see, if you put to trial all of those people, I guess we'll have to put to trial anyone who bombed cities in World War 2, anyone who ever accidently shot a civilian, any Western Pilot who's "smart" bomb malfunctioned and hit civilians. It's unrealistic to ask for that.

no, there is a diffrence in bombing a city and rapeing a women or young girl, you cant not see that. And every time a German apologizes for something some of his countrymen did years before he was even born, people say "good" or "thats as it should be", but for some reason the Soviets or Americans or British dont have to do the same??

Gwynn Compton wrote- If I recall Hitler believed by wiping out the Jews he was doing it for the good of humanity

Are you saying Jews are the same as Communists?


medorjurgen-Nazi regime who try to deny them, play them down or explain them away.

In other words, exactly what you (and Hetman) do with Soviet, Polish, American, British, and French crimes??

medorjurgen-Ever had a chat with elder Germans, particularly in Bavaria, my friend? Ever read German nationalist publications, not necessarily of the extreme right? Do that, and you will quickly change your mind about the "most hidden secret".

I havnt. But if I go to out on the street,to a bookstore,to school, to the movies, to the music store, turn on the TV, log onto to the internet, or just about anythign else, I will read/hear about German crimes, according to 90% of people, Soviet/American/French?Polish/British crimes never happened, and the other 10% will say they were justified...

medorjurgen-Kill all Germans” were the words of a rabid propagandist by the name of Ehrenburg

guess what the troops at the front hear? propaganda

medorjurgen, youd make a great lawyer, you sound like your makeing a really great point, but...........

I have some soviet propaganda in a book I have, I cant remember the exact quote, but one is something like "pave the roads with the blood of the blonde Germans", now if that doesnt insight violence against all Germans, I dont know what does.

mike

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#19

Post by Davey Boy » 01 May 2002, 08:25

Mike,

I'm not playing down Polish crimes. I don't have to do that because they're just not in the same league as the German crimes. They not even in the same ball park, they're not even the same sport.

And that's the key point. There's a big difference between what the Germans and allies did. You can't just say "oh, a lot of people died on both sides". You have to know why they died and how, in order to learn something from what happened. Comprehend? You have a think about that for a while.

In regards to the Indian chap, I just don't see why he's got such a rabid hatred of the Soviet Union. At least I'm Polish, so I've got an excuse for hating Nazis and Soviets. In fact, it was my family that was sent to Siberia by the NKVD...

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#20

Post by michael mills » 01 May 2002, 17:20

I imagine that had Germany won the war, the next people on Hitler's extermination list may well have been the Slavic people of Eastern europe.
There is no evidence for that.

There was a proposal (but not a co-ordinated, authorised plan) to reduce the population of the EUROPEAN part of the Soviet Union (ie the area to be conquered, west of the Urals) by some 30 million, in order to make the food surplus of Ukraine and the Caucasus available for export to Germany to make it "blockade-proof". However, there was no plan agreed at the highest levels of the German Government regarding how such a reduction would be achieved. One proposal (the so-called "Generalplan-Ost") was to deport 30 million from the food-deficit areas, particularly the urban population, across the Urals into a rump Russian state that was foreseen to exist after a German victory.

Documentary evidence shows that the German authorities were well aware that their plans to feed Germany by extracting the food surplus from the Soviet Union would inevitably lead to the deaths of many millions in the food-deficit regions of that country, and they explicitly accepted that outcome. However, that was a WARTIME measure, designed to counter the effects of the British blockade, and we cannot assume that it indicates an exterminatory plan that was to be put into effect in peacetime.

In any case, the Russian population of today seems to be doing an adequate job of reducing itself, without any outside help. There has been zero population growth in European Russia for some time now (what recent population growth there was in the former Soviet Union was almost entirely in the Muslim areas of Central Asia), and Russia is one of the areas where population is forecast to decline by many millions in the near future.

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#21

Post by Gwynn Compton » 02 May 2002, 10:52

no, there is a diffrence in bombing a city and rapeing a women or young girl, you cant not see that. And every time a German apologizes for something some of his countrymen did years before he was even born, people say "good" or "thats as it should be", but for some reason the Soviets or Americans or British dont have to do the same??
But needless to say it is still a crime is it not? Cities are not military targets, the British weren't aiming for factories when they launched their huge night raids over German cities. If I had my way I'd have everyone who ever commited a warcrime stand trial for it, including fellow New Zealander's who massacered a group of German prisoners in Italy. Including one of the participants who was a family friend. But I understand that its not going to happen, regardless of how unfair it may be, because there is a point where you must realise that if you keep picking at a scab, all you are going to do is irritate the wound further rather than letting it heal.
Are you saying Jews are the same as Communists?
Well technically speaking, as both groups are both human beings and thus entitled to the same rights, they are technically the same. The only difference is in their individual political ideologies.

Infact I'm wondering where you got your line of thought that I was making any such comparison. I was merely commenting that Hitler believed he was doing the world a favour with his extermination of the Jews. Indeed he no doubt believed that he was doing the world another favour by removing the Communists as well.
Quote:
I imagine that had Germany won the war, the next people on Hitler's extermination list may well have been the Slavic people of Eastern europe.


There is no evidence for that.

There was a proposal (but not a co-ordinated, authorised plan) to reduce the population of the EUROPEAN part of the Soviet Union (ie the area to be conquered, west of the Urals) by some 30 million, in order to make the food surplus of Ukraine and the Caucasus available for export to Germany to make it "blockade-proof". However, there was no plan agreed at the highest levels of the German Government regarding how such a reduction would be achieved. One proposal (the so-called "Generalplan-Ost") was to deport 30 million from the food-deficit areas, particularly the urban population, across the Urals into a rump Russian state that was foreseen to exist after a German victory.
Note I only said "I imagine" and "may well have been". That was pure speculation on my part, and as you've kindly pointed out, it is not completely without foundation. Who knows how German policy may have changed following a German victory, however it is all of course pure speculation. But given that the Third Reich was already trying to wipe out one population (The Jews), it is entirely possible that they may try to wipe out the Slavs as well. Though it is more probable, given the greater size of the Slavic population in Russia and Eastern Europe, that they would have been merely given a sub human status, compelled to manual labour or the like.
In any case, the Russian population of today seems to be doing an adequate job of reducing itself, without any outside help.
I recall an article, I think it was in a National Geographic about this, and that it was decreasing by about 100,000 people a year currently. Infact, the projections for most European countries showed population decline in the coming decades, while the Third World countries were expected to explode even further.

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prejo
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#22

Post by prejo » 02 May 2002, 11:40

Hello you all!

I think that the inclination to rape (with or without alcohol association) was definetly in russian's genes. Why I'm saying that? because here in Romania in '44 happened the same thing. Not on such scale as in Germany bat it did happened. [I didn't even bother to search for proofs I took the info "as is", just knowing the russians]. Considering the fact that SU and Romania were on the same side at that time and the Russians didn't entered Germany I don't think that somebody has to premeditate (or think very hard on ) the mass-scale rape of german women. Giving "green-light" to the russian trooper was enough.
On the other hand, AFAIK, the rape was punished by the Wehrmacht regulations and any soldier with such guilt were court matialed. It is possible taht the SS has other regulations and all the men responsible for the rapes get away with it.
regards,
prejo

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Roberto
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#23

Post by Roberto » 02 May 2002, 18:03

I imagine that had Germany won the war, the next people on Hitler's extermination list may well have been the Slavic people of Eastern europe.

There is no evidence for that.

There was a proposal (but not a co-ordinated, authorised plan) to reduce the population of the EUROPEAN part of the Soviet Union (ie the area to be conquered, west of the Urals) by some 30 million, in order to make the food surplus of Ukraine and the Caucasus available for export to Germany to make it "blockade-proof". However, there was no plan agreed at the highest levels of the German Government regarding how such a reduction would be achieved. One proposal (the so-called "Generalplan-Ost") was to deport 30 million from the food-deficit areas, particularly the urban population, across the Urals into a rump Russian state that was foreseen to exist after a German victory.

Documentary evidence shows that the German authorities were well aware that their plans to feed Germany by extracting the food surplus from the Soviet Union would inevitably lead to the deaths of many millions in the food-deficit regions of that country, and they explicitly accepted that outcome. However, that was a WARTIME measure, designed to counter the effects of the British blockade, and we cannot assume that it indicates an exterminatory plan
that was to be put into effect in peacetime.
“Only” a wartime measure?
Eine Zerstörung der russischen Verarbeitungsindustrie in der Waldzone [des Nordens] ist auch für die fernere Friedenszukunft Deutschlands eine unbedingte Notwendigkeit. […] Aus all dem folgt, daß die deutsche Verwaltung in diesem Gebiet wohl bestrebt sein kann, die Folgen der zweifellos eintretenden Hungersnot zu mildern und den Naturalisieringsprozess zu beschleunigen. Man kann bestrebt sein, diese Gebiete intensiver zu bewirtschaften im Sinne einer Ausdehnung der Kartoffelanbaufläche und anderer für den Konsum wichtiger, hohe Erträge gebender Früchte. Die Hungersnot ist dadurch nicht zu bannen. Viele 10 Millionen von Menschen werden in diesem Gebiet überflüssig werden und werden sterben oder nach Sibirien auswandern müssen.
Source of quote: Ernst Klee / Willi Dreßen, “Gott mit uns”: Der Deutsche Vernichtungskrieg im Osten 1941-1945, Frankfurt 1989, page 23. Reference: Bericht Wirtschaftsstab Ost, Gruppe Landwirtschaft vom 23.5.1941, Nuremberg Document 126-EC, IMT, Vol. XXXVI.

My translation:
A destruction of the Russian manufacturing industry in the forest zone [of the North] is an absolute necessity also for the far-away peacetime future of Germany […] From all this there follows that the German administration in this area may well attempt to diminish the effects of the famine that will doubtlessly occur. It can be attempted to manage these areas more intensively in the sense of an extension of the area for cultivating potatoes and other high-output agricultural products important for consumption. The famine cannot thereby be controlled. Many tens of millions of people will become superfluous in this area and will die or have to emigrate to Siberia.
Emphasis is mine.
“Lächerliche hundert Millionen Slawen”, so Hitler am 6.8.1942, “werden wir absorbieren oder verdrängen. Wenn hier einer von Betreuen spricht, dem muss man gleich ins KZ stecken“ (Speer, 1981, 422).
Source of quote:

Speer, A., Der Sklavenstaat. Meine Auseinandersetzung mit der SS, Stuttgart 1981, as quoted in Gunnar Heinsohn, Lexikon der Völkermorde, Hamburg 1998, page 305.

Translation (Heinsohn):
“A ridiculous 100 million Slavs”, said Hitler on 6.8.1942, “we will absorb or displace. Whoever speaks of taking care of these people should be put in a concentration camp right away” (Speer, 1981, 422).



Michael Mills:
In any case, the Russian population of today seems to be doing an adequate job of reducing itself, without any outside help.
The emphasis is on “adequate” isn’t it? Yes, it’s a fact that, apparently to Michael Mills’ great elation, those bloody Slavs are becoming ever less – though not nearly at the pace the Führer had in mind, unfortunately.

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Victor´s Justice?
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#24

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 05 May 2002, 05:11

medorjurgen wrote:
HETMAN wrote:Just curious, why this interest in Soviet crimes? You're Indian, right?
Interest? I would call it obsession. Mr. Wildboar's favorite is the idea that Soviet atrocities against German civilians were "pre-planned", and he sees confirmation of that theory in the quoted news on Antony Beevor's recent book.

I may be blind, but all I found in this respect in the quoted passage reads as follows:
He [Beevor] said the Soviet hierarchy turned a blind eye, and even condoned the rape as a form of revenge for what the German Army - the Wehrmacht - had done during Operation Barbarossa.
Which is not exactly the same as the "pre-planning" of atrocities by the Soviet high command - except perhaps to Mr. Wildboar.
Oh boy...just another Medo´s example of prejudice toward participants of this forum...first, he is unable to ask anything because he is from India...second, double standards again arise when it comes to Russia´s war crimes...whoa, Portuguese fella, get a hold of yourself...will ya always be blind to other countries´ atrocities? Would ya like to be called a "Denier"? Is Beria a saint now?

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Victor´s Justice?
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#25

Post by Victor´s Justice? » 05 May 2002, 05:24

HETMAN wrote:In regards to the Indian chap, I just don't see why he's got such a rabid hatred of the Soviet Union. At least I'm Polish, so I've got an excuse for hating Nazis and Soviets. In fact, it was my family that was sent to Siberia by the NKVD...
Perhaps because he is trying another sensitive matter for you guys...war crimes by a WWII victor...and you shouldn´t have excuses for hating anyone, germans or soviets, that´s a small sample of prejudice as well...

But just for the sake of conversation, I know the father of my German brother-in-law, he is from Prussia...you´d better not ask him about Soviet crimes in that region, because their parents suffered all kinds of torture and loss there by the good guys from the East.

Medo, is there any flak available? It´s your turn to protect the "saints"...

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Roberto
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#26

Post by Roberto » 05 May 2002, 22:23

Victor´s Justice? wrote:
medorjurgen wrote:
HETMAN wrote:Just curious, why this interest in Soviet crimes? You're Indian, right?
Interest? I would call it obsession. Mr. Wildboar's favorite is the idea that Soviet atrocities against German civilians were "pre-planned", and he sees confirmation of that theory in the quoted news on Antony Beevor's recent book.

I may be blind, but all I found in this respect in the quoted passage reads as follows:
He [Beevor] said the Soviet hierarchy turned a blind eye, and even condoned the rape as a form of revenge for what the German Army - the Wehrmacht - had done during Operation Barbarossa.
Which is not exactly the same as the "pre-planning" of atrocities by the Soviet high command - except perhaps to Mr. Wildboar.
Oh boy...just another Medo´s example of prejudice toward participants of this forum...first, he is unable to ask anything because he is from India...second, double standards again arise when it comes to Russia´s war crimes...whoa, Portuguese fella, get a hold of yourself...will ya always be blind to other countries´ atrocities? Would ya like to be called a "Denier"? Is Beria a saint now?
A friendly peace of advice, dear Believer: there are people on this forum who know just how often Mr. Wildboar has brought up his "pre-planned Soviet atrocities" - stuff and are thus likely to consider that I have a point and that the newcomer should sit back and observe instead of firing off without knowing what he's talking about.

And here's another: There are also quite a lot of people on this forum who know that I have no sympathy at all for Mr. Beria or for Communism in general. Beria having been a monster is one thing - I have no doubt about that - evidence about a particular misdeed of his is another. Is there any evidence of there having been a plan behind Soviet atrocities in Germany that my friend can produce? Hint: Historians, including but not limited to Jürgen Thorwald, Cornelius Ryan and Antony Beevor, have found no such evidence so far.

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Russian Rape row

#27

Post by Holly » 09 May 2002, 18:08

I don't know whether the Russians had pre planned what they did, but that the Higher ups did go and tell soliders, "Kill the Germans",etc.is undoubtly true.Certainly there may have been commanders of individual units,etc, who told their men to do these things,without prompting from Stalin,progandists or others. hate is a powerful emotion,and doesn't need prompting from anyone to go and seek revenge for a real or imagined wrong supposedly done to that person.

If they did this to the German women,what did they to to those in Hungary,the home of my mother's ancestors,or Romania,etc.
maybe the Hungarians and Romains on this board can enlighted others
here on the not so lovely details.

The Russians are just like the japanese in regards to denial of war crimes they commited.They have that "What Who Me?" attitude.They can't even seem to admit to things they did in the former Soviet Union to their own people during the Russian revolution and under Stalin.
history buff

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Re: Russian Rape row

#28

Post by Ovidius » 09 May 2002, 21:16

Holly wrote:If they did this to the German women,what did they to to those in Hungary,the home of my mother's ancestors,or Romania,etc.
maybe the Hungarians and Romains on this board can enlighted others
here on the not so lovely details.
The Soviet soldiers in Romania have done a lot of heinous things - theft, plunder, rapes, assasinations - which when I've first read, I was shocked.

However, regardless what they've done in Romania is nothing, is just a tiny bit, compared to what they did in the Eastern section of Germany. 'Nuff said.

~Ovidius

PS Yes, I do expect my second paragraph to be put aside as "empty slander" :mrgreen:

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Roberto
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Re: Russian Rape row

#29

Post by Roberto » 09 May 2002, 21:38

Ovidius wrote:
Holly wrote:If they did this to the German women,what did they to to those in Hungary,the home of my mother's ancestors,or Romania,etc.
maybe the Hungarians and Romains on this board can enlighted others
here on the not so lovely details.
The Soviet soldiers in Romania have done a lot of heinous things - theft, plunder, rapes, assasinations - which when I've first read, I was shocked.

However, regardless what they've done in Romania is nothing, is just a tiny bit, compared to what they did in the Eastern section of Germany. 'Nuff said.

~Ovidius

PS Yes, I do expect my second paragraph to be put aside as "empty slander" :mrgreen:
You won't hear that from me, for sure. On the contrary, I would be interested in figures from an authoritative source about Soviet outrages in Romania, if you have any.

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jacques
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#30

Post by jacques » 11 Oct 2003, 23:08

do pics exist to confirm these atrocities ?

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