Righteous Among the Nations

[Skyderick]

It's a fact that many people recklessly agreed to shelter Jews, and then as the time went by they got scared, changed their mind, tried to expelled them, expelled them or even killed them. Many of those Jews were reduced to begging, or even blackmailing their hosts to survive.
Those people certainly assessed their and "their" Jews survival prospects poorly, although it was obvious the war would be long, the life would get harder and harder. This reckless behavior could have been the result of limited intelligence, or was the result of limited intelligence.
Bawnik noticed that, and said they were lucky that their hosts don't comprehend fully the consequences. But the consequences and the dangers were easy to understand - and people generally understood them very well. And yet it seems the Hamars didn't understand them.

Of course "thank God" is just a figure of speech. But I'm sure it was said often, and even should have been said often.

Exactly how many cases can you name of Jews in hiding blackmailing their shelter-givers for survival? Allow me to disregard the rest of your subjective post.

[wenty]

Hi WM,

I'd like you to try and find one person who was a prisoner at Plaszow or anywhere else where Amon Goeth was who felt that he was a "nobody". There are numerous documented accounts of his killing somebody just because he could. Schindler was playing a very dangerous, very serious game by trying to appease him and take care of his Jews at the same time. He might have been a nobody by the end of the war, but there is a documented instance of his visiting Brunnlitz later in the war, even after he had lost his power, and the inmates were still terrified of him. That was the effect that he had. He was, in short, a monster, and he was only one of many who Schindler had to deal with throughout the war.

In fact, there were other factory managers in Krakow - Raimund Titsch, for instance - who did go to great lengths to protect their workers, but never to the extremes that Schindler did.

So, you want to be critical. OK then. Put yourself in Schindlers' shoes. What would YOU have done differently?

Cheers,
Adam.

[David Thompson]

A post from Sid Guttridge, containing disparaging personal remarks about another poster, was removed by the moderator pursuant to forum and section rules - DT.

A. Civility

The first rule of the forum is: "No insults are tolerated (that includes serious national and religious insults)." Personal remarks in posts are strongly discouraged, and personal insults are forbidden here.

There has been a lot of stimulating information exchanged on this forum, and some excellent discussions of controversial points. With few exceptions, the participants are thoughtful, serious people. If you find an argument is flawed, point out the flaws and the evidence to the contrary, and leave it at that. There is no need to resort to insults which do not prove your point. If you disagree with a contributor, please use your energy to show why his argument is mistaken. This will improve both the tone and quality of our discussions.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi David,

I put it to wm that he had invented his own demeaning insults for Poles and was attributing them falsely to Jews.

Furthermore, I provided evidence to that effect.

His source appears nowhere to talk of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence". Both seem to be spin by wm.

There has, as yet, been no denial as to the facts as I laid them out by wm or anyone else.

Sid.

[minimus]

You people seem to completely not understand what wm is saying.
I don't think he is insulting anyone. Maybe its a cultural thing
Anyway, what I understand he says:
It was more risky for 'normal people' (ppl not in power, non Germans) to save the Jews. They often did not fully understand what it meant - how long it could be, the daily struggle and risks, the costs, etc.
This is two pages of discussion put in two short sentences. Maybe it helps.

[minimus]

wm that he had invented his own demeaning insults for Poles

where did he say that??

I'd like you to try and find one person who was a prisoner at Plaszow or anywhere else where Amon Goeth was who felt that he was a "nobody".

I believe he was referring to his status outside of the camp and certainly not with the prisoners. Obviously to them he was a god.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi minimus,

Post #11 on this thread.

His source seems to say nothing about Polish "stupidity" or "limited intelligence". These words were apparently introduced by wm and by attributing such sentiments to "some Jews" distorts the sense of his original source, who was a single Jew.

If wm has a reasonable explanation, I would be happy to address it. Maybe he was guilty of slack paraphrasing, or English is not his first language. I don't know, but it doesn't look good the way he posted it.

Cheers,

Sid

[minimus]

His source seems to say nothing about Polish "stupidity" or "limited intelligence". These words were apparently introduced by wm and by attributing such sentiments to "some Jews" distorts the sense of his original source.

Where did he introduce them? I think you are overreacting and misinterpreting what he said.
I saw nothing about "Polish stupidity or limited intelligence". Certainly not in post #11.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi minimus,

Try the last paragraph of post #11 and also #24.

I repeat, the single Jewish source he claims to rely on does not seem to say anything about Polish "stupidity" or "limited intelligence".

There is a world of difference between being in ignorance of circumstances and being stupid.

There is also a world of difference between misrepresenting a single Jewish source and attributing a sentiment that source apparently does not express to "some Jews" generally.

Sid

P.S. In writing, "It was more risky for 'normal people' (ppl not in power, non Germans) to save the Jews. They often did not fully understand what it meant - how long it could be, the daily struggle and risks, the costs, etc.", you may be interpreting wm correctly. However, (1) that is not what he wrote and (2) we will only know this for a fact if he himself tells us so.

[minimus]

Sid, I read all this. I just don't agree with your interpretation. It is only interpretation. You didn't show any quotes.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi minimus,

To repeat my recent edit of the last post, "P.S. In writing, "It was more risky for 'normal people' (ppl not in power, non Germans) to save the Jews. They often did not fully understand what it meant - how long it could be, the daily struggle and risks, the costs, etc.", you may be interpreting wm correctly. However, (1) that is not what he wrote and (2) we will only know this for a fact if he himself tells us so.

Cheers,

Sid

[wenty]

Hi Minimus,

Even so, Amon Goeth was not a nobody. He was a camp commandant, and effectively held sway over the prisoners who were working for Schindler. At the end of every day, they still had to leave Schindler's factory and go back into Goeth's territory.

Cheers,
Adam.

[wm]

To repeat my recent edit of the last post, "P.S. In writing, "It was more risky for 'normal people' (ppl not in power, non Germans) to save the Jews. They often did not fully understand what it meant - how long it could be, the daily struggle and risks, the costs, etc.", you may be interpreting wm correctly. However, (1) that is not what he wrote and (2) we will only know this for a fact if he himself tells us so.

That is your concern?!
Looking at the societal collapse in the Ghettos, looking at the anomie-ridden territories around them you want discuss the difference between stupid and ignorance? As they say it is fiddling while Rome burns.

Please read the book first. Or maybe something more brutal like Am I A Murderer? (the second edition, not the heavily censored first) to get some basic understanding of the subject, of the life in the populated by lumpen-proletarians, lumpen-peasants towns/villages.

As I said for most of the people who sheltered a Jew/Jews it was an act of stupidity (and that's a kind expression), that usually resulted in death of their Jews.
It was calculated that in one small but representative part of Poland 74% of "rescuers" sheltered Jews for money, 26% selflessly.
The survival rate in the "not-for-profit" was 48%, in the former 6%.
94% death rate because of ignorance of circumstances.

And, the thank God expression, like an American greeting means nothing, even Stalin used it.

[wm]

Exactly how many cases can you name of Jews in hiding blackmailing their shelter-givers for survival? Allow me to disregard the rest of your subjective post.

Like this:

After a quarrel with Gawin [the host], Teofila [one of the Jews] left the house in broad daylight. When she returned after two hours, Gawin ordered her and her husband to get out of his house.
But Marcel [her husband] sat down at the entrance to the cellar and said: "She's done wrong, but if you say so Sir, we will comply. But as you know Sir, beaten - people feel pain".
Gawin took the hint, arrested they might have enough and betray their former hosts. Marcel was a diplomat [..]. In the end the host allowed them to say. But his pregnant wife paid with a bleeding for that quarrel.
source

It happened frequently, especially in the 94% group. It worked rarely, but a drowning man will grab at anything.

[David Thompson]

wm -- You wrote:

It was calculated that in one small but representative part of Poland 74% of "rescuers" sheltered Jews for money, 26% selflessly.

Source, please.