Righteous Among the Nations

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wm
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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#46

Post by wm » 06 Aug 2014, 08:50

It's Jan Grabowski, Judenjagd.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#47

Post by Sid Guttridge » 06 Aug 2014, 12:45

Hi wm,

No. This is my concern: I put it to you that you had invented your own demeaning insults for Poles and were attributing them falsely to Jews.

Furthermore, I provided evidence to that effect.

Your source appears nowhere to talk of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence". Both seem to be spin by you.

There has, as yet, been no denial as to the facts as I laid them out by you or anyone else.

Others have tried to give you an opportunity to explain yourself, as have I, but you are not doing so.

If your source talks of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence" please give us the page number so that we can check it. If you cannot, you must withdraw it and explain what you really meant.

While you are at it, please can you give us the source for your proposition "It was calculated that in one small but representative part of Poland 74% of "rescuers" sheltered Jews for money, 26% selflessly. The survival rate in the "not-for-profit" was 48%, in the former 6%. 94% death rate because of ignorance of circumstances."

Cheers,

Sid.


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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#48

Post by wm » 07 Aug 2014, 19:36

I think it's just lack of knowledge of basic facts.

Statistically, a person helping Jews wasn't a Karski, Słowik or Żabiński. It was a illiterate/semi-illiterate peasant, and in towns - a similar person from the lowest stratum of society - just from a different poverty trap.

Many of those people didn't share the ideas of the rest of the society, or were even hostile to them. Their morality was different, and their expectations, goals were different. Their failings were well known before the war, especially that literature dedicated to this subject was/is required reading in school (let's say Ravens and Crows Will Peck Us to Pieces).
Their failings, and shortcomings of their culture resulted in the statistics above, although the Nazi with their relentless Judenjagd were the prime movers.
If you want to believe some/many of those people were not of limited intelligence, the Jews didn't see that, didn't understand that, and sometimes didn't exploit to save themselves as in we are lucky that our hosts don't comprehend fully I really can do nothing about it.

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#49

Post by Sid Guttridge » 08 Aug 2014, 11:39

Hi wm,

You are still evading the issue and, indeed, by failing to give any source for your statistics are actually agravating your situation. The position is such that now you appear not only to have apparently distorted the source you gave, but are avoiding giving sources on other issues. As long as this endures, the credibility of everything you post is open to question.

For your benefit, I repeat my questions of you:

I put it to you that you had invented your own demeaning insults for Poles and were attributing them falsely to Jews.
Furthermore, I provided evidence to that effect.

Your source appears nowhere to talk of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence". Both seem to be spin by you.

There has, as yet, been no denial as to the facts as I laid them out by you or anyone else.

Others have tried to give you an opportunity to explain yourself, as have I, but you are not doing so.

If your source talks of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence" please give us the page number so that we can check it. If you cannot, you must withdraw it and explain what you really meant.

While you are at it, please can you give us the source for your proposition "It was calculated that in one small but representative part of Poland 74% of "rescuers" sheltered Jews for money, 26% selflessly. The survival rate in the "not-for-profit" was 48%, in the former 6%. 94% death rate because of ignorance of circumstances."


If your sources say what you claim, I have no problem accepting that.

However, I have a real problem with distortion of sources, particularly in the manner you appear to have done, and with a refusal to reveal sources.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#50

Post by wm » 08 Aug 2014, 20:16

I really have nothing more to say. I'm primary interested in everyday life in Eastern Europe, before and during the war. If you wish you may downgrade that to my opinion. I'm not going to comb tens of thousands of pages for obscure quotes.

It's another case you don't follow the thread. The source has been given earlier.
Last edited by wm on 08 Aug 2014, 21:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#51

Post by wm » 08 Aug 2014, 20:32

A few more cases of blackmailing. Although the societal collapse in the Ghettos was more severe than outside, these shouldn't be read too much into:
When a Polish family by the name of Drobnicki in the village of Posuchów near Brzeżany told their Jewish charges, Roza Goldman and her daughter Bela, that they could not keep them anymore, the Goldman women threatened to turn them in to the Germans if they had to leave. The Drobnicki family later took in two Jewish men during the final months of the German occupation, which caused a lot of bickering as the two Jewish women were against the idea of keeping these men.
Shimon Redlich, Together and Apart in Brzezany
[She] received a chilling letter delivered by one of the children of the family hiding my uncle. The letter said, “We know there are Jews hiding here. If they do not leave at once, they will all be killed.” The letter was signed by Ukrainian partisans. ...
What my mother learned after the war was that the threatening letter had actually been written by another Jew who was also being hidden by the farmer. This Jewish man had learned that my uncle was hiding in the barn. He wrote the letter hoping to scare my uncle away. He feared that if my uncle was found in the barn, he and his family would also be discovered.
Carole Garbuny Vogel, We Shall Not Forget!
A Polish rescuer from Stanisławów, in Eastern Galicia, who is credited with saving 32 Jews, reported: “I even took in some Jews who had threatened to denounce me and their kinsmen whom I was hiding if I didn’t help them.”
Richard C. Lukas, Out of the Inferno
One day Stefania received a letter delivered by two street urchins, who demanded that Stefania read it, sign it, and return it to them so they could be paid. The letter was from a Jewish woman in the ghetto; it named all the people she had in hiding and threatened to tell the Gestapo everything unless Stefania took in the author of the letter and her children.
Eva Fogelman, Conscience and Courage
As though we didn’t have enough problems, a new calamity befell us. Aside from all the torture, discomfort and hunger, we now had to make room for another person—Mojshe. How he was able to trace us, we would never know, but one day he came to [their host] Michalina’s and blackmailed her and us; if we wouldn’t take him in, he would tell the Germans. The parasite was with us for an entire month, and our portions of bread were smaller because of him. One night, father caught him stealing our bread ...
Nelli Rotbart, A Long Journey
the Stub brothers announced that they had no place to go and they intended to remain right where they were in Vichta’s house. “If you force us to leave, and we are caught, we will inform the Germans that you are here, and they will catch you as well.”
Vichta and Leibush had no choice. The Stubs would remain, but that raised the number to eight ... Eight Jews, six of whom had no money, in a tiny cottage attic near the main road. Impossible. ...
After three weeks. Leibush and I were forced to leave Vichta’s home and joined a group living in the forest. Froim and the Stub brothers remained at Vichta’s house until the liberation. ... The Stub brothers behaved brutishly, bullying their way into the security of Vichta’s home.
Norman Salsitz with Stanley Kaish, Three Homelands
Above quotes are from Mark Paul, Patterns of Cooperation

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#52

Post by David Thompson » 10 Aug 2014, 01:29

A redundant opinion post by Sid Guttridge, repeating the content of posts #47 and #49, was removed by the moderator - DT.

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#53

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Aug 2014, 12:25

Hi David,

No opinion - just hard facts based entirely on what wm has posted, or has refused to provide by way of sources on this very thread.

If you can find where his claimed Jewish source talks of Polish "stupidity" or that the Poles were of "limited intelligence", be my guest. I can't and he won't.

If you can find where he offers a source for his statistics, be my guest. I can't and he won't.

Over to you.

Sid.

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#54

Post by wm » 10 Aug 2014, 13:00

The source was given in the post number 46.

This is just for your convenience.
Although the numbers are slightly different because they are from the later and improved, American edition.
With additional insight why the Yad Vashem awards don't reflect reality.
Judenjagd.jpg
Judenjagd.jpg (163.07 KiB) Viewed 450 times

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#55

Post by Sid Guttridge » 10 Aug 2014, 13:24

Hi wm,

Thanks. This enormously improves the value of your earlier post.

I missed the earlier reference to the source as when you gave it you neither addressed the post to me, nor associated it with the material concerned.

I will have a look at it in detail, but at first glance the published statistics do not conform precisely with what you originally posted. Could you clarify the differences?

Thanks again.

Sid

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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#56

Post by wm » 11 Aug 2014, 10:43

They are different because they are from different editions of the book. Above I used these because they are in English.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Righteous Among the Nations

#57

Post by Sid Guttridge » 11 Aug 2014, 10:49

Hi wm,

Thanks.

The two sets of figures show generally the same picture, even if they differ in detail.

This is useful material, in the absence of anything comparable.

Thank you for putting it up.

I will let matters ride as far as the stupidity/ignorance matter is concerned. My assumption is that you mixed the two up in your original post.

Cheers,

Sid.

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