Jews in pre-war Poland

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Post Reply
michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#316

Post by michael mills » 17 Jun 2015, 07:13

"...As early as 1943, a report of the Foreign Office for the Polish Government- in-Exile in London stated:
The return of the Jews to their jobs and workshops is quite out of the question, even if the number of Jews is greatly reduced. The non-Jewish population has filled their places in the towns and cities; in much of Poland this is definitive and final in character. The return of masses of Jews would be perceived not as an act of restitution, but as an invasion against which they would have to defend themselves, even by physical means.51"

51. Statement of Roman Knoll, Polish Foreign Office in London in August 1943 in Richard Chesnoff, Pack of Thieves. How Hitler and Europe Plundered the Jews and Committed the Greatest Theft in the History, (London, 1999), p. 179.
I have the feeling that the above statement by Roman Knoll has been misunderstood by Chesnoff, and subsequently by 4thskorpion.

I doubt that when Knoll talked about the non-Jewish population filling the places of the Jews in the towns and cities, he was specifically referring to Poles taking possession of Jewish property.

I think it more likely that he was referring to the well-known historical fact that for centuries the Jews of Poland had constituted a socio-economic caste that had performed certain urban economic functions such as trade and artisanry, and that their domination of that socio-economic niche had created an obstacle to the surplus peasant population moving into the towns and taking up urban functions, thereby perpetuating the rural over-population that plagued Poland.

Knoll meant that, with the destruction of the Jewish population by the German occupiers, the socio-economic niche formerly occupied by them had become vacant, and non-Jews were now moving into it, performing the functions traditionally performed by the Jews. That is a point that I have often made on this Forum; the real benefit to ethnic Poles from the elimination of the Jewish population was not so much that they could live in the Jews' houses or wear their underpants, but that they had new economic opportunities, enabling them to leave the land and take up urban occupations.

It is noteworthy that Knoll made his statement in 1943, in that it shows that while the German occupation was still firmly in place, Poles were moving in to do the jobs previously done by the Jews whom the occupiers had killed or deported. That process was facilitated by the Germans themselves, who realised that their destruction of the Jews had created a dire shortage of skilled artisans, and that they needed to give technical training to Poles so as to ameliorate that shortage; thus the Germans created technical colleges for Poles so as to educate a skilled workforce (for the German benefit of course).

Once the German occupiers had gone, the process of turning Polish peasants into skilled tradesmen continued under the new Communist government, thereby relieving the perennial problem of rural over-population and under-employment.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#317

Post by michael mills » 17 Jun 2015, 08:21

According to estimates by Salo W. Baron, "A Social and Religious History of the Jews", in 1490 there were ca. 600,000 Jewish people in Europe but their distribution throughout the continent was much different than what we know from more recent times. The largest Diasporas in 1490 existed - according to Baron - in Spain (250,000), Italy (120,000) and the German Reich (still 80,000 even though their number was already declining). Much smaller Jewish populations lived in Portugal (30,000) and in the Polish-Lithuanian realm (30,000).
Those are very interesting figures.

The overwhelming majority of the present World Jewish population of today must be descended from those 600,000 Jews who lived in Europe in 1490. That would be true also of the so-called "Oriental Jews", the majority of whom are descended from the Jews expelled from Spain 1492, and whose ancestors made up close to half the 600,000 Jews of Europe in that year.

Only the relatively small number of Jews who used to live in Iraq, or Yemen, or Iran and Central Asia, are not descended from the 600,000 Jews who lived in Europe in 1490.

The World Jewish population of today is estimated at around 14 million, of which two million at most can be descended from Jews who were not living in Europe in 1490, ie from the Jews of Yemen, Iraq, Central Asia. Thus, some 12 million Jews of today must be descended from the 600,000 Jews who lived in Europe in 1490, representing a 20-fold net population growth over five centuries.

That growth factor might be compared with the growth of the total World population over the same period.

Of course, the human population of the World in 1500 cannot be known for certain, but the best estimates appear to put it around 500 million. Since the World population of today is estimated at over 7,000 million, that means that the net increase factor of the total human population over the past five centuries is 14.

Thus, the net increase of the World Jewish population over the past five centuries is markedly greater than that of the World population as a whole, by 20:14, or 43%.

That is surprising, since over 25% of the World Jewish population perished during the Second World War. The conclusion must be that the wartime Judeocide perpetrated by Germany was not a demographic catastrophe, despite the personal tragedies of the millions who perished, since the World Jewish population of today is still proportionately greater than it should be by comparison with the total World population.

In other words, the net effect of the Judeocide was to remove an excess Jewish population that had accumulated over the period before the Second World War as a result of the Jewish population increasing at a much faster rate than the human population as a whole. Thus, it was objectively in the nature of a cull, reducing the World Jewish population to a level closer to what it would have been if its net increase since 1500 had been the same as that of the human population as a whole.


User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#318

Post by 4thskorpion » 17 Jun 2015, 10:41

michael mills wrote:
I wonder if by "Polish peasants" you mean all peasants who were citizens of Poland, or ethnically Polish peasants ???
I mean any peasants of whatever ethnicity living in German-occupied Poland.

I mean that the motivation of those peasants who participated in the hunts for escaped Jews needs to be analysed more deeply, in a totally impartial way.

It seems to me that sort of statements one reads in the standard historiography of the wartime relationships between Jews and non-Jews in occupied Poland, about the motivation of Poles and others who participated in the "Jew-hunts", is biased to the extent that they are sourced from the Jewish survivors themselves, who naturally would have a totally negative view of the people who had been hunting them, or from post-war investigations by the new Communist Government of Poland, which had a vested interest in denigrating its predecessors.

What is missing from the historiography is the voice of the people of occupied Poland who participated in the hunt for the escaped Jews. It is not that the voices of the hunters would be any less biased than those of the hunted, and obviously would be skewed by a self-exculpatory motivation, but their inclusion would at least provide the balance that is the basis of all decent historiography.
This is simply not true.

During his research for the book "Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland" Grabowski studied the verdicts of dozens of post-war trials of Poles who were tried for taking part in the killing of their Jewish neighbours as well testimonies by Polish peasants and Jewish survivors.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#319

Post by 4thskorpion » 17 Jun 2015, 10:48

michael mills wrote: In other words, the net effect of the Judeocide was to remove an excess Jewish population that had accumulated over the period before the Second World War as a result of the Jewish population increasing at a much faster rate than the human population as a whole. Thus, it was objectively in the nature of a cull, reducing the World Jewish population to a level closer to what it would have been if its net increase since 1500 had been the same as that of the human population as a whole.
That must be a first (outside of neo-nazi circles) - reducing the nature of the Jewish Holocaust to the nature of a cull!

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#320

Post by michael mills » 17 Jun 2015, 11:04

Another way of looking at the demographic development of the Jewish population of Europe from 1490 until today is to calculate the percentage of the total World population represented by the estimated 600,000 Jews living in Europe at 1490 to the corresponding percentage represented by their estimated 12 million descendants today.

600,000 Jews living in Europe in 1490 constituted 0.12% of the estimated total World population in 1500 of 500 million.

Their estimated 12 million descendants today constitute some 0.17% of the estimated present World population of 7000 million.

In other words, there has been no net decline over the past five centuries in the proportion that Jews represent of the total World population, which means that they have held their own in demographic terms. The loss of millions of lives during the Second World War has had no net demographic effect.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#321

Post by michael mills » 17 Jun 2015, 11:17

During his research for the book "Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland" Grabowski studied the verdicts of dozens of post-war trials of Poles who were tried for taking part in the killing of their Jewish neighbours as well testimonies by Polish peasants and Jewish survivors.
As I wrote, the present historiography is based on the views of Jewish survivors and the verdicts of post-war Communist courts, which are inevitably biased against the Polish peasants who took part in the "Jew hunts".

Testimonies given by the Polish peasants before courts that were intensely hostile toward them are unlikely to represent the absolute truth, since those peasants were under the extreme stress of being on trial for their lives or of having to give testimony that would please the court and save them from being put on trials themselves.

The situation under which the participants in the "Jew hunts" would have been able to express their true motives for participating would have been if they had been free of the stress of being on trial. But it is too late for that now.

The issue here is not whether Polish peasants participated in "Jew hunts", since they clearly did, but what their motives for that participation were.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#322

Post by 4thskorpion » 17 Jun 2015, 11:41

michael mills wrote:
During his research for the book "Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland" Grabowski studied the verdicts of dozens of post-war trials of Poles who were tried for taking part in the killing of their Jewish neighbours as well testimonies by Polish peasants and Jewish survivors.
As I wrote, the present historiography is based on the views of Jewish survivors and the verdicts of post-war Communist courts, which are inevitably biased against the Polish peasants who took part in the "Jew hunts".

Testimonies given by the Polish peasants before courts that were intensely hostile toward them are unlikely to represent the absolute truth, since those peasants were under the extreme stress of being on trial for their lives or of having to give testimony that would please the court and save them from being put on trials themselves.
This is not accurate either.

Often Polish judges were extremely sympathetic and lenient towards the Polish "peasant" perpetrators involved in the murder of Jews but not so to the German war criminals. I don't recall any reports of torture or intimidation used to extract confessions from those Poles involved in crimes against Polish Jews during the Holocaust unless you have such evidence?

However the Polish communist courts were "intensely hostile" to the anti-communist resistance and more often than not used brutal torture to extract confessions regarding the alleged "killing Jews" or "killing communists" but this was about crushing the anti-communist resistance rather than retribution for the killing of Polish Jews.

"....At times, insurgents ostensibly tried for a particular crime were hardly interrogated concerning that charge. Instead, the secret policemen simply forced them to reveal the infrastructure of their organization, to divulge the whereabouts of their confederates, and to confess to general charges like “killing Jews” or “killing Communists.”

Source: Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain : The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955.
michael mills wrote:The issue here is not whether Polish peasants participated in "Jew hunts", since they clearly did, but what their motives for that participation were.
Grabowski 's book exposes the fact that often the motivation of Poles to murder their Jewish neighbours was the acquisition of a "new" pair of Jewish shoes, a shawl, a dress or simply a bag of sugar was reward enough to murder...but especially the lure of fabled Jewish gold.

Again see Grabowski below:
image.jpg
...and with regards communist security forces:
image.jpg

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#323

Post by michael mills » 18 Jun 2015, 04:12

Grabowski 's book exposes the fact that often the motivation of Poles to murder their Jewish neighbours was the acquisition of a "new" pair of Jewish shoes, a shawl, a dress or simply a bag of sugar was reward enough to murder...but especially the lure of fabled Jewish gold.
Does Grabowski also address cases where groups of peasants got together to hunt down escaped Jews hiding in the forests who were raiding the peasants' farms for food and sometimes committing acts of violence against the peasants themselves?

Such cases were quite common, and are even described by Jewish survivors themselves, although it is possible that they were less common in the specific area researched by Grabowski.

In the cases where escaped Jews raided farms for food, or used violence against peasants in order to force them to hand over food and other supplies, and where the peasants hunted the Jews who were raiding them, it was not a matter of good guys versus bad guys, since both the escaped Jews and the peasants were simply trying to survive, driven by the need to obtain food or to prevent food being taken away from them.

It seems to me that Grabowski may be being somewhat unbalanced in his conclusion that the Poles who participated in "Jew hunts" were motivated solely by greed and other base motives. There were cases where they were simply trying to protect themselves.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#324

Post by 4thskorpion » 18 Jun 2015, 06:05

michael mills wrote:
Grabowski 's book exposes the fact that often the motivation of Poles to murder their Jewish neighbours was the acquisition of a "new" pair of Jewish shoes, a shawl, a dress or simply a bag of sugar was reward enough to murder...but especially the lure of fabled Jewish gold.
Does Grabowski also address cases where groups of peasants got together to hunt down escaped Jews hiding in the forests who were raiding the peasants' farms for food and sometimes committing acts of violence against the peasants themselves?

Such cases were quite common, and are even described by Jewish survivors themselves, although it is possible that they were less common in the specific area researched by Grabowski.

In the cases where escaped Jews raided farms for food, or used violence against peasants in order to force them to hand over food and other supplies, and where the peasants hunted the Jews who were raiding them, it was not a matter of good guys versus bad guys, since both the escaped Jews and the peasants were simply trying to survive, driven by the need to obtain food or to prevent food being taken away from them.

It seems to me that Grabowski may be being somewhat unbalanced in his conclusion that the Poles who participated in "Jew hunts" were motivated solely by greed and other base motives. There were cases where they were simply trying to protect themselves.
It seems to me that you are basing your opinions on Grabowski's book without actually having read his research yourself?

In his book you will be able to read that Grabowski also discusses those Polish peasants of Dąbrowa Tarnowska who aided the Jews in surviving at risk to themselves both from German retribution and from their fellow Poles for doing so. Grabowski makes it clear in his study of Dąbrowa Tarnowska that very few Poles did not demand payment to provide Jews with a hiding place and food. He also shows that a large number of those who helped to hide Jews in the countryside of Dąbrowa Tarnowska and provided them with essentials only did so if they could profit from this. In numerous cases, the hiding place and sustenance given to the paying "Jewish guests" were quickly terminated if the Jewish guests could not continue to make payment... they were then more often or not denounced to the German authorities or handed over to the Polish "Blue" police who then murdered them.

According to WorldCat Grabowski's book Hunt for the Jews: Betrayal and Murder in German-Occupied Poland can be found at the following Australian libraries:

1. Lamm Jewish Library of Australia, Caulfield South VIC, 3162 Australia
2. University of Adelaide Libraries, Adelaide, AU-SA 5005 Australia
3. Victoria University, Melbourne Vic, 8001 Australia


Three books in the present Polish historiography that await translation into English:

"Jak Polacy Niemcom Żydów mordować pomagali” or "How the Poles helped the Germans to kill Jews" by Stefan Zgliczyński (2013)

"Antysemityzm po polsku” by Stefan Zgliczyński (2008)

Jest taki piękny słoneczny dzień… Losy Żydów szukających ratunku na wsi polskiej 1942-1945” by Barbara Engelking (2011).

In the Engelking book translated as ""It is such a beautiful, sunny day ...Jews seeking refuge in the Polish countryside 1942-1945" the author apparently reaches the conclusion that greed was the most frequent reason for the murder of Jews or handing them over to the police but also that farmers regarded the ‘hunts for Jews’ as a kind of pleasurable activity or form of recreation. Author bio: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Engelking
Last edited by 4thskorpion on 18 Jun 2015, 09:56, edited 2 times in total.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#325

Post by michael mills » 18 Jun 2015, 09:22

Unfortunately not where I live. I have already looked for it for libraries here in Canberra, but there are no holdings. It is a book that I would like to read if I can get hold of it.

I do not doubt that the details of Polish peasants plundering the property of deported Jews are quite true. I just wonder whether that is the whole picture.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#326

Post by michael mills » 18 Jun 2015, 09:56

Another thing that needs to be considered is what would have happened if the circumstances had been reversed, ie if a group of non-Jews were being persecuted, would Jews risk their lives to help them.

The fact is that the Judaic Law expressly forbids Jews to save the lives of non-Jews who are in danger. It is Commandment 39 of the 613 Commandment, which states that it is forbidden to save the life of an idolator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

In the traditional Jewish view, the Christian religion is a form of idolatry since it involves the deification of a human being. In particular, those variants of Christianity that involve veneration of images, a common practice among Polish Catholics, are idolatrous from the Judaic point of view.

No doubt not all Jews obey that law, and there are probably cases where Jews have risked their own lives to save non-Jews.

However, it is unreasonable of Jews to expect non-Jews to risk their lives to save them when they are in danger when their own religious teaching forbids them to save non-Jews.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#327

Post by 4thskorpion » 18 Jun 2015, 10:39

michael mills wrote:Another thing that needs to be considered is what would have happened if the circumstances had been reversed, ie if a group of non-Jews were being persecuted, would Jews risk their lives to help them.
I guess we will never know because this wasn't the situation the Polish Jews being hunted in the countryside and ghettos found themselves in, however some desperate Jews did inform on fellow Jews and on Poles who were hiding Jews in order to try and save their own lives.
michael mills wrote:The fact is that the Judaic Law expressly forbids Jews to save the lives of non-Jews who are in danger. It is Commandment 39 of the 613 Commandment, which states that it is forbidden to save the life of an idolator.
The Christian commandment "Thou shalt not murder" springs to mind with regard to Polish Catholics but that didn't seem to stop some murdering Jews!

But a more relevant aspect for consideration and ignored by Polish historians in the past is why the rescue of the Jews was so difficult in the sparsely populated countryside areas where there was barely a German presence but where many Poles risked aiding the Polish underground resistance rather than aiding the Jews...both acts could equally lead to execution of the Poles involved and potentially their families. Much has been made of the death penalty decreed for helping Jews in Poland as if the death penalty was a unique penalty in occupied Poland, but this was not so, because the death penalty was also a potential sentence for joining anti-German resistance organisations, concealing arms, gold, US dollars and any number of proscribed activities which Poles were obviously willing to risk their lives in doing.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#328

Post by 4thskorpion » 19 Jun 2015, 11:00

To support the fact that the death penalty for Poles was not uniquely confined to the aid and assistance of Jews in Poland.

Below is a list of 10 crimes which carried the death penalty issued in a proclamation in October-November 1939 as described in the book The Color of Courage: A Boy at War: The World War II Diary of Julian Kulski by Julian Kulski (2014).
Death_Penalty_Warsaw-1939.png
Crimes for which the death penalty could be applied to Poles in 1939.
ps. Apologies for my distorted scan of the book page(s).

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#329

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 21 Jun 2015, 17:24

Many were beaten to death by the Polish collaborators, who assisted the Nazis.
And here once again a big question is the word use.

What does it mean "assisted the Nazis" - who are "the Nazis" - are they members of the NSDAP political party ?? Same with "the Polish collaborators" - in what sense is the term "Polish" used? People living in Poland regardless of race, religion or ethnicity? Former Polish citizens? Ethnic Poles? Ethnic Germans / Ukrainians / etc. living in Poland, former (before 1939) citizens of Poland? Protestants? Greek Catholics?

Poland was a multi-ethnic and a multi-religious country. Thus this "Poles assist the Nazis" is like "Americans riot in Baltimore".

Nothing specific about ethnicity. Except that America is currently not under foreign occupation.

But if you say "Americans riot in Baltimore" it doesn't automatically mean, that, for example, ethnic Italian-Americans are also involved.

And another question is who are "the Nazis" - only Germans with NSDAP party cards, or Germans without party cards too ???
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Jews in pre-war Poland

#330

Post by 4thskorpion » 22 Jun 2015, 10:58

Peter K wrote:
Many were beaten to death by the Polish collaborators, who assisted the Nazis.
And here once again a big question is the word use.

What does it mean "assisted the Nazis" - who are "the Nazis" - are they members of the NSDAP political party ?? Same with "the Polish collaborators" - in what sense is the term "Polish" used? People living in Poland regardless of race, religion or ethnicity? Former Polish citizens? Ethnic Poles? Ethnic Germans / Ukrainians / etc. living in Poland, former (before 1939) citizens of Poland? Protestants? Greek Catholics?

I am sure Judith Evan Goldstein was able to tell who were "Polish collaborators" and who were not as she experienced it and we did not.

For reference the demographics for Vilna in 1931 are given below, but these may have changed significantly in subsequent years, I would not know, therefore the quoted stats are offered as a guide only:

"...A census of 9 December 1931 reveals that Poles made up 65.9% of the total Vilnius population (128,600 inhabitants), Jews 28% (54,600 inhabitants), Russians 3.8% (7,400 inhabitants), Belarusians 0.9% (1,700 inhabitants), Lithuanians 0.8% (1,579 inhabitants), Germans 0.3% (600 inhabitants), Ukrainians 0.1% (200 inhabitants), others 0.2% (approx. 400 inhabitants).". https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vilnius#In_Poland

Peter K wrote:
And another question is who are "the Nazis" - only Germans with NSDAP party cards, or Germans without party cards too ???
They would be the same "Nazis" that both "Poles" and "Jews" widely reported in countless eyewitness testimonies as occupying Poland between 1939 and 1944-5.

They would be the same Nazis as; " 200,000 Jews Executed by Nazis in Poland, Black Book Asserts" - September 8, 1942 Jewish Telegraph Agency (JTA) NEW YORK (Sep. 7) http://www.jta.org/1942/09/08/archive/2 ... ok-asserts and "Study of Jewish Life Under the Nazis in Poland Published Here in Yiddish" - November 20, 1942 JTA NEW YORK (Nov. 19) http://www.jta.org/1942/11/20/archive/s ... in-yiddish

They would be the same Nazis referred to in this quote from German magazine DER SPIEGEL; "...Germany's occupation of Poland is one of the darkest chapters of World War II. Some 6 million people, almost 18 percent of the Polish population, were killed during the Nazi reign of terror that saw mass executions, forced evictions and enslavement.". http://www.spiegel.de/international/eur ... 59095.html

They would be the same Nazis as in the title of this book; "The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi Rule in Poland Under the General Government" by Martin Winstone (2014)

...etc., etc.,

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”