Total number killed by the Gestapo?

[BuddaBell123]

By 1944 there were over 32,000 members in the Gestapo which must have made it quite stretched across what was left of Nazi-Occupied Europe. The NKVD was notorious for murdering thousands, but how many did the Gestapo kill in its 13 years of existence?

[David Thompson]

BuddaBell123 -- From the section rules:

1. Questions

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http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53962

[Paul Lantos]

how many did the Gestapo kill in its 13 years of existence?

After 1939 the Gestapo ceased to be an independent department within the SS, and was merged with the SD to form the RHSA -- so if you're including after 1939 then your answer is in the multi millions. The RHSA, which let me say again was formed from the Gestapo and SD, administered the Einsatzgruppen and other police units in the east, and was ultimately responsible for the Holocaust within the Soviet Union -- as well as the scorched earth slaughter of countless others in the occupied USSR. So just in the USSR alone you have 1-1.5 million Jews and millions of others killed by units of the RHSA.

The Holocaust within the rest of Europe was largely a partnership between the Totenkopfverband within the WVHA (which administered the concentration camps and extermination camps) and the RHSA which was responsible for concentrating and deporting Jews to the death camps. Remember that Eichmann was a Gestapo agent, so any deaths you can attribute to Eichmann's administration (3-4 million?) were committed by the Gestapo. So the RHSA was directly party to a huge proportion of the Jews that were ultimately to die in the death camps.

Complicating this matter was the involvement of Order Police and Wehrmacht units who were often operating under RHSA direction when they participated in atrocities. Another complicating factor is it seems that the actual extermination in Birkenau, even though carried out by camp staff (administered by the WVHA), was administratively authorized by the political unit of the Katowice Gestapo.

So I think if you're honestly asking the question of how many people the Gestapo either directly killed or participated in the killing of, the answer is a huge proportion of the Nazis' total noncombatant victims.

[BuddaBell123]

I've seen a lot of footage and sources about the Allies executing German spies, but does anyone know how many spies the Germans or Gestapo to be more specific executed?

[Paul Lantos]

I've seen a lot of footage and sources about the Allies executing German spies, but does anyone know how many spies the Germans or Gestapo to be more specific executed?

Real actual spies, or "partisans" along with the 10,000 other villagers in the general area?

The problem with this question for both the SS and the NKVD is that they killed mostly imagined enemies, and were exhorted to produce huge numbers, which was accomplished by defining enemies very loosely.

[steve248]

This is probably the wrong question.

Were members of the Gestapo involved in killing people? The answer is Yes.
Were these Gestapo members involved in the killing of individual people on an individual basis. The answer could be No.
Were Gestapo members involved in a team of killers? The answer is Yes.

As an example of individuals killed by individual Gestapo members then these men were involved in the the killing of 50 RAF officers who escaped from Sagan POW camp in 1944. On recapture the order came from Berlin to shoot them and individual Gestapo members did shoot these individuals.

Another example could be the killing of individual Jewish Soviet POWs at concentration camps in Germany in 1941/42, of which the prime office involved was Gestapoleitstelle Munich. I am unsure whether the Gestapo selection panel shot the Jewish POWs or whether camp personnel comprised the executioners.

Despite what one reads, the actual act of killing individuals was usually not solely at the whim of Gestapo members.

[htk]

- Then there are also the 30.000 german and european people arrested by the gestapo , handed over to the justice system and executed (example the Scholls see page 311 scholl documentation of beheading section)
- There are also the secret number of executed people on order of the Gestapo (nacht und nebel)
- The people of the OSS , SOE (392 source http://www.specialforcesroh.com/browse. ... c&catid=31)

[Penn44]

This is probably the wrong question.

Yes, and David Thompson said so, yet people have attempted to answer it.

Another example could be the killing of individual Jewish Soviet POWs at concentration camps in Germany in 1941/42, of which the prime office involved was Gestapoleitstelle Munich. I am unsure whether the Gestapo selection panel shot the Jewish POWs or whether camp personnel comprised the executioners.

Although I generally prefer to ignore a thread that should have never been open in the first place, I will go ahead and respond to your above comment.

The said Jewish-Soviet POWs were executed at Dachau. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_von_Eberstein
In general, the Landesschuetzen soldiers (men too old for front line service and invalids) who served as POW camp guards were of such poor quality, they would not have tolerated execution duties very well.

Also, Munich was not the only Gestapo office involved. During this timeframe as well as later, screenings for Commissars, Jewish POWs and other "undesirables" occurred at other POW camps across Germany. One source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_crime ... nomercy-23

Penn44

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[steve248]

I didn't need wikipedia as a source (the second link no longer works) when I have already delved into German archives about the Soviet POW killings and the role of the Gestapo. The action is widely published. I felt I did not need to be overly elaborate.

[Penn44]

I didn't need wikipedia as a source (the second link no longer works) when I have already delved into German archives about the Soviet POW killings and the role of the Gestapo. The action is widely published. I felt I did not need to be overly elaborate.

As AHF's fine staff of moderators will tell you the forum rules require sourcing of your posts. For all we know you might be some clown making up stuff, and unfortunately we have occasionally encountered that before. Also, the requirement for sourcing one's posts cuts down on idle chatterers who just like to post for the sheer pleasure of posting or for attention seeking. In a vein similar to flashers who get a thrill by exposing their genitals to strangers, some posters evidently get a thrill by trying to impress strangers with their fast knowledge of relative trivia gathered from the History Channel or Time Life books.

I disagree that the Munich Gestapo involvement with Stalag VIIA is widely published. Also, I did not need Wikipedia as a source, but it was adequate, and I didn't want to walk in the other room and search through one of several books for the actual reference.

The second link does work. Maybe you're not operating your mouse correctly.

In your "delving" of the German archives did you happen to encounter any information regarding the interactions of Stalag or Oflag Abwehr officers and the Gestapo?

Penn44

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[David Thompson]

Penn44 -- steve248 is a long-time, respected and well-informed member of AHF, and has been contributing his knowledge to our readers for the past 10 years. He does not require your guidance, patronizing comments or attempts to act as surrogate moderator here. I warned you about this only a few days ago (at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1813781), in regard to another poster, and I don't plan to do it over and over again.

[steve248]

It's alright David, I pulled a few things off the bookshelves that I am surrounded by, and checked a few things from my computer indexes of material seen in archives:

Books of relevance to Soviet POW killings (I am not going into the loft to find more):
Eugen Kogon, "The Theory and Practice of Hell" - note, the German edition "Der SS-Staat" is more informative on this point.
H Krausnick, M Buchheim, M Broszat & H-A Jacobsen, "Anatomy of the SS-State"
Szymon Datner, "Crimes against POWs. Responsibility of the Wehrmacht"
Reinhard Otto & Karl Hüser, "Das Stammlager 326 (VI A) Senne, 1941-1945. Sowjetische Kriegsgefangene als Opfer des Nationalsozialistischen Weltanschauungskrieges"
Christian Streit, "Keine Kameraden - Die Wehrmacht und die sowjetische Kriegsgefangenen 1941-1945" (now available as an e-book and Christian receives no royalties)

Pasted from my computer indices of SOME of the material examined at Bundesarchiv Ludwigsburg (you can visit anytime)

B162/5222
Beteiligung von Angehörigen der SS-Totenkopfstandarte "Brandenburg" an Misshandlungen,
Erschießungen und Vergasung sowjetischer und polnischer Kriegsgefangener im Konzentrationslager Sachsenhausen 1939 bis 1942

B162/7994 to 7999
Bemerkung Serie: Gegenstand der Ermittlungen ist die Mitwirkung der Beschuldigten an der "Aktion 14 f 13", Massenexekutionen sowjetischer Kriegsgefangene, medizinische Experimente an Konzentrationslagerhäftlingen, "Endlösung der Judenfrage" und Einzelexekutionen in Konzentrationslagern.

B162/14051
Beteiligung des SS-Unterscharführers Eschner an der Erschießung sowjetischer Kriegsgefangener und anderer Häftlinge im Konzentrationslager Groß Rosen zwischen
1941 und 1945

B162/14347
Beihilfe des SS-Hauptscharführers O. Eichler, Leiter der Effekten- und Geldverwaltung im Konzentrationslager Buchenwald, an Erschießungen 'ausgesonderter' sowjetischer Kriegsgefangener durch das sog. Kommando 99 in den Jahren 1941 bis 1943

B162/14688
Teilnahme des SS-Oberscharführers H. Emde an Erschießungen von Häftlingen im Konzentrationslager Buchenwald, darunter die Tötung 'ausgesonderter' sowjetischer Kriegsgefangener im Pferdestall durch das sog. Kommmando 99, in den Jahren 1938 bis 1942

B162/27779-27780
Ermittlungen wg. des Verdachts der Aussonderung sowjet. Kriegsgefangener jüdischer Herkunft u.a. sog.untragbarer Kriegsgefangener in den Gefangenenlagern des ehem. Wehrkreises 7 München: Ermittlungen StA Landshut gegen O. Burger wg. des Verdachts der Ermordung von Kriegsgefangenen in dem ihm unterstellten Stalag Moosburg / Oberbayern: Ermittlungen StA München gegen Alfred Schimmel (Gestapo Munich)

And if you wish to examine the Gestapo involvement in the shooting of the RAF officers who escaped from Stalag Luft III (Sagan) in March 1944, this is reference at The national Archives, Kew/UK (you can examine anytime):
WO 235/424-432 and 573-577
British Military Court, Hamburg: July-September 1947 - Sagan: Stalag Luft III Case
And if you are seriously interested in this case I can provide another 100 references available at Kew.

Will that do?

[little grey rabbit]

Eugen Kogon, "The Theory and Practice of Hell" - note, the German edition "Der SS-Staat" is more informative on this point.

That would be the ingenious measuring stick killing device:

In the beginning the SS murderers used a machine they later got rid of because it did not work quickly enough. On a wooden stand was a measuring stick (to measure a person's height); attached to it was a firing pin at the level of the base of the skull. When someone stepped onto the stand, the pin hurtled out and shattered the nape of the neck or the skull. With this, too, many were not struck a fatal blow but were nevertheless taken to the crematorium in a truck full of corpses.

[Penn44]

Penn44 -- steve248 is a long-time, respected and well-informed member of AHF, and has been contributing his knowledge to our readers for the past 10 years.

Well, if you say so, David.

In my defense, it was the other poster who "patronized" my use of a source, then said person fell back on the defense that he had "delved into German archives about the Soviet POW killings and the role of the Gestapo." Well, good for him.

I would expect that someone who has so "delved" into the archives would not to be so sensitive about my humble use of a source or intimidated by the fact that I knew the answer.

Some of us others have also "delved" into a bevy of primary and secondary sources and we are also "well-informed." Some of us have simply delved deeper than others, but some of us are by nature deeper delvers (On a side-note, trying say, "Deeper delvers delve deeply" several times quickly).

One of the reasons why some of us deeper delvers delve deeply into the Gestapo's involvement within the Stalags is that the answer reveals something of the nature of the working relationship between the Wehrmacht and the RSHA, the major organ of Nazi terror. Traditionally, the defenders of the Wehrmacht have always maintained that the Wehrmacht kept the RSHA at arm's length because it either did not approve of the terror or it desired to avoid an association that would taint the "honor" of the Wehrmacht if it was involved in the RSHA killing operations. However, the Gestapo's role in the screening of Soviet POWs in the Stalags located within Germany itself followed by the execution of selected POWs clearly shows that the Wehrmacht both accepted the killings and engaged in an intimate working relationship with the RSHA, far closer than the Wehrmacht defenders would like to admit. Another fact that brings the closeness of the Wehrmacht-RSHA relationship into greater relief is that the Wehrmacht allowed these POW screenings to occur at locations in Germany itself and not in the distant East. At least in the East, the Wehrmacht could use the argument that the screening and executions were demanded by the exigent circumstances of war. In 1941-42, the area of the Old Reich did not experience these exigent circumstances. In a similar vein, one cannot apply the brutalization of war argument offer some historians to the POW screening/executions in Germany in 1941-42 as it occurred so relatively early in the war and again, so far behind the lines.

Penn44

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[PF]

Reportably the Gestapo Executed US Airmen Pows in Kitzingen
Message # 16
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsfo ... I-b28kXCSo

POWS Being liberated at Kitzingen
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news- ... to/3325906