The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

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michael mills
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#106

Post by michael mills » 16 Feb 2015, 03:40

To take three examples, while the Romanians broke up collective farms, the Germans did not
The fact is that in 1943, Rosenberg had succeeded in gaining the German Government's agreement to the dissolution of the collective farms and the distribution of the land to the peasants as private property. However, by then it was too little, too late.
While the Romanians reopened Odessa University, the Germans did not do the same.
Rosenberg had wanted to create a university for Ukrainians, but he was opposed in that endeavour by Koch, the Reichskommissar Ukraine and Rosenberg's nominal subordinate. Hitler eventually supported Koch's view, and the project for a Ukrainian university was shelved.

The conflict between Rosenberg and Koch was essential one over the classification of Ukrainians. Rosenberg considered the Ukrainians to be a completely different people from the Russians (the view generally held in the West today), and therefore entitled to better treatment, whereas Koch considered them to be just a variety of Russian, to be given the same rough treatment.

Hitler's own rejection of education for Ukrainians was most probably a result of what he had learned from Ludendorff in the period 1919-1923, since Hitler had had no personal experience of the Eastern Front during the First World War, whereas Ludendorff had. Ludendorff's view, based on his own experience of the Eastern Front, was that it was pointless trying to bring education and health services to the peoples of the East, since during the First World War the peasant peoples of the German-occupied areas had stubbornly resisted the German efforts to make their children attend school, and to compulsorily delouse and inoculate them.

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LWD
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#107

Post by LWD » 16 Feb 2015, 21:59

michael mills wrote:....

The upshot is that the annual amount of grain extracted from the occupied Soviet territories was no greater than the annual amount exported in the period 1932-34, and considerably less than the amount exported in 1937.

Thus, the question is whether the extraction for German purposes from the occupied territories of an amount of grain equal to pre-war annual exports of grain from those same territories under Soviet rule would have been sufficient to cause a food-shortage of such a magnitude as to cause an "artificial famine" costing millions of lives.

The historical fact is that the first part of the period 1932-34, the years 1932-33, did in fact coincide with a huge famine in Ukraine and the North Caucasus that did cost millions of lives. However, there was no known famine during the second part of the period, the years 1933-34.

Various reasons are given for the 1932-33 famine, one being that the Soviet Government continued to export the same quantities of grain in a situation of food shortage caused by crop failures.

Thus, the answer to the question of whether German food extraction caused an "artificial famine" in the German-occupied Soviet territories would probably depend on the relationship between the amount of grain extracted and the size of the harvest during the years of occupation.
However I would think the fact that extensive military operations had taken place in that area would impact not only production but distribution. Concluding that German policies were not responsible for a famine during this period certainly seems unwarranted at this point.


michael mills
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#108

Post by michael mills » 17 Feb 2015, 00:18

The question is whether a famine actually did occur in the Soviet territories under German occupation, and if so how severe it was.[

In 1942, it appears that the harvest in the areas under German control was quite good, and there was no lack of food in the countryside. There was a noticeable and large-scale movement of population out of the cities and into the countryside where food was available.

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wm
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#109

Post by wm » 17 Feb 2015, 23:34

The artificial famine in Kiev was real. It happened because the Nazis for some period of time rigorously enforced their totally inadequate food allowances. The Nazis were hoarding foodstuffs, because the next harvest was expected to be poor.
Similar blockade was enacted around Warsaw but was unsuccessful.
Ukrainian memoirs published in the West basically agree that beginning in October "the Gestapo," that is, members of Einsatzgruppe C, barred people at the city outskirts who did not live in Kiev from entering and confiscated food imports.
Iaroslav Haivas arrived early on in Kiev illegally as a leader of the OUN-M. He writes that he and his fellow-activists appointed people who should avert a famine in the city. These people then approached "economic circles, first of all former cooperators," and as a result products started to trickle into the city. "Many collective farms gave up products without any payment," he writes, "and only with a note that payment would follow. When it seemed that things would start to work, the German military command closed the city and blocked the entrance not only of cars, but also of individuals."
Nina Mykhalevych, a member of the OUN-M, writes that in late 1941 transport of food to Kiev was blocked by patrols on the bridges: "Milk for Lesia [her little daughter] was brought by a woman from Darnytsia across the frozen Dnieper. She had to sneak it in, masterfully hidden under a large plaid on her shoulders so that the German would not see it.
On the bridges the Germans had placed guards who intercepted any people bringing the Kievans food from the countryside and they confiscated everything!" Halyna Lashchenko, a woman who returned to her native Kiev at her own initiative and was close to the OUN-M, writes more vaguely that the Germans "somewhat obstructed'' the food supply of Kievans. She noted that the city administration sent cars into the countryside and tried to get food there, but "did not always succeed.*'

Both Lashchenko and Haivas describe a large convoy of food which arrived in Kiev on 9 October 1941. Peasants from the Tarashcha region 120 kilometers away brought a "present" to the city, apparently after an appeal by the Ukrainian Red Cross (discussed below), which consisted of 128 carts with forty-five tons of meat, ten thousand eggs, poultry, lard, butter. and apples. The vice-head of the administration and his secretary met the delegation and expressed their gratitude. According to Lashchenko, the leader of the transport said, "We know that these [foodstuffs] won't be consumed by the commissars, as under the Soviets, but by the Ukrainian population." Haivas writes that "the German command let it in on the condition that the food would be used for ill people and hospitals, and so for a short time the Germans had been forced to lift the 'blockade."'
Karel Berkhoff, Everyday Life in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine
michael mills wrote:
While the Romanians reopened Odessa University, the Germans did not do the same.
Rosenberg had wanted to create a university for Ukrainians, but he was opposed in that endeavour by Koch, the Reichskommissar Ukraine and Rosenberg's nominal subordinate. Hitler eventually supported Koch's view, and the project for a Ukrainian university was shelved.
Although universities for the Poles/Ukrainians were created in Lwów in 1942, so called Staatliche Fachkurse Lemberg. Initially they were called:

Staatliche Medizinische Institute,
Staatliche Forstliche Institute,
Staatliche Tieraerztliche Institute,
Staatliche Pharmazeutische Institute,
Staatliehe Medizinische Institute.

Later the names were changed, for example Staatliche Medizinische Institute became Staatliche Medizinische Fachkurse. But still more or less they were universities.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#110

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Feb 2015, 21:06

Hi Michael,

Hitler may not have served on the Eastern Front but, as a Austrian, he had an opinion on the Galicians, and it was not flattering.

If I remember rightly, near the end of the war when he discovered that the rebuilding and unengaged 14th W-SS Galizien Division was comparatively well endowed with weaponry at a time when hard-pressed German front line units were often not, he launched into a diatribe against the Galicians based on his received WWI prejudices against them. If his opinion of Roman Catholic Western Ukrainians was so low, his opinion of Eastern Orthodox Eastern Ukrainians could only have been worse.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#111

Post by Boby » 21 Feb 2015, 22:20

wm wrote:The artificial famine in Kiev was real. It happened because the Nazis for some period of time rigorously enforced their totally inadequate food allowances. The Nazis were hoarding foodstuffs, because the next harvest was expected to be poor.
Because they needed them or because they wanted Kiev population to starve?

Please be more precise.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#112

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Feb 2015, 12:40

Hi Guys,

The book we probably need is German Rule in Russia, 1941-45 by Alexander Dallin.

It is long out of print and second hand copies are very expensive.

I haven't read it, but at 700+ pages it is certainly weighty.

I have read his smaller book on Romanian rule in Transnistria and Odessa and this contrasts Romania's more benign and successful policy in Transnistria with harsher German occupation policies in neighbouring Ukraine. I mention some of the differences above.

Of particular relevance to this thread is the fact that the Romanians broke up the collective farms. As a result, in 1942-43 Transnistrian grain production was more than adequate.

Cheers,

Sid.

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wm
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#113

Post by wm » 22 Feb 2015, 18:00

We shouldn't forget the 1941 and 1942 harvests were poor and the 1942 one was exceptional, the 1943 wasn't bad too, so it's not given the invisible hand done it.

Boby wrote:Because they needed them or because they wanted Kiev population to starve?
They needed them badly because of the poor harvests, they didn't care about Kiev and other cities. The people there could have died or not, it didn't matter. Of course Hitler wanted them all to disappear, but it was a long term dream.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#114

Post by Boby » 22 Feb 2015, 19:15

wm wrote:We shouldn't forget the 1941 and 1942 harvests were poor and the 1942 one was exceptional, the 1943 wasn't bad too, so it's not given the invisible hand done it.

Boby wrote:Because they needed them or because they wanted Kiev population to starve?
They needed them badly because of the poor harvests, they didn't care about Kiev and other cities. The people there could have died or not, it didn't matter. Of course Hitler wanted them all to disappear, but it was a long term dream.
Thanks. From where got Kiev population the available food to survive? After all it was a city of more than 600.000 inhabitants. What was the mortality rate in the autumn-winter of 1941-42? There are reliable figures?

Regards

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wm
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#115

Post by wm » 23 Feb 2015, 23:29

As far as I know there are no reliable figures. The Germans weren't interested, Stalinist Russia was always bad at statistics and records-keeping.

People there usually stockpiled food in summer when it was cheap/available, in fact in the communist countries they did it well into eighties - even in cities. In this case it was frequently food stolen when the Soviet Army retreated from the city. So they had their own food, and additionally the official meager rations and the black market. But all that was insufficient to survive - the blockade started at the beginning of winter and was very long.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#116

Post by michael mills » 25 Feb 2015, 07:58

Of course Hitler wanted them all to disappear, but it was a long term dream.
An unwarranted assumption.

Hitler envisaged the conquered Soviet territories as "Germany's India". ie a colony where a small number of Germans would rule over a large native population, and exploit it to Germany's advantage.

Nothing there about the native population disappearing. If it did, there would be nothing to exploit.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#117

Post by michael mills » 25 Feb 2015, 08:02

From where got Kiev population the available food to survive? After all it was a city of more than 600.000 inhabitants.
Before the war.

But after the German invasion a large part of the population was evacuated east by the Soviet authorities. For example, the vast majority of the Jews were evacuated.

After the German occupation of Kiev, the unevacuated population dwindled further as people left for the countryside where food was easily available.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#118

Post by Boby » 25 Feb 2015, 18:45

Thanks wm and michael

Here are some population figures for Kiev 1941-1943
https://books.google.es/books?id=nd9WzI ... &q&f=false

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#119

Post by michael mills » 26 Feb 2015, 02:24

The decline in the population of Kiev from 846,300 on 1 April 1941 to an estimated 400,000 on I October of that year was due to the mass evacuation conducted by the Soviet authorities before the city was captured by the German forces.

The decline from the estimated 400,000 to 352,139 on 1 April 1942 was primarily due to the massacre of the remaining Jewish population shortly after the city came under German control.

The steady decline thereafter was due mainly to the population drifting away to the countryside to find food and employment there.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#120

Post by Boby » 26 Feb 2015, 16:42

Thanks. Add also the deportation of working population to Germany (how many in the Kiev zone?)

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