The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

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steverodgers801
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#61

Post by steverodgers801 » 18 Jan 2014, 03:57

starving the Russians was intended from the start.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#62

Post by Paul Lantos » 18 Jan 2014, 06:55

Re: calories -- an adult doing heavy manual labor would have a significant caloric deficit if restricted to 1600 calories per day, especially in the winter when basal caloric expenditure goes up to maintain body temperature.
Gorque wrote:I believe one item that seems to be overlooked is the fact that the Heer had sufficient transport capabilities for either munitions or food, both not both. This being the case, wouldn't it be rational to conclude that whatever crops the Heer did capture in the Ukraine would be kept, for the most part, within the Ukraine as it wouldn't make sense to ship the crops to the Reich only to have foodstuffs shipped back into the Ukraine and in competition with armaments shipments.
Therefore wouldn't it be rational to conclude that the German leadership decided that starvation of the Soviet citizenry was subordinate to their war aims? And since a tremendous amount of planning went into both invasion and occupation policy, wouldn't it be rational to conclude that this was a premeditated policy of starvation?


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wm
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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#63

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2014, 11:16

it's 1600 only if the fine print is not taken into account, and it said:
- Meat and meat products generally cannot be provided to these population groups in the current food situation.
- Instead of bread, foodstuffs (buckwheat, millet, etc.) can be given out.
- In cities where there are meat factories, special attention should be paid to the preparation of blood sausage etc. and the purposeful application of entrails. As long as local circumstances dictate, up to a third of the meat ration can be given out as fat.
The supply of butter for the civilian population is, as long as the need of the Wehrmacht has not been fully met, out of the question.
- As long as it is necessary as a result of the local circumstances, bread and foodstuffs can be interchanged during the distribution.
Karel Berkhoff, Everyday Life in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine
So low quality food and no meat, that heavy manual laborer was given a long cow entrail to enjoy at best.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#64

Post by Boby » 18 Jan 2014, 11:25

And this is the price paid by the Ukrainians at the end of 1941
These were only for military occupied areas, not civilian (RK Ukraine). They were issued by the WirtschaftStab Ost as "Besondere Anordnungen Nr. 44" on 4 November 1941.

I don't know the weekly rations in the civilian areas.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#65

Post by Boby » 18 Jan 2014, 11:27

steverodgers801 wrote:starving the Russians was intended from the start.
Russians starving was predicted from the start.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#66

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2014, 12:21

I would even say the invasion, the new great Hitlerian Empire made no sense without extermination.
A "non-exterminating" Empire would be a paper tiger, a huge third-world country.

In 1938, the GDP per capita (essentially country's efficiency and standard of living) was:

Germany: 5000
UK: 6266
US: 6200
Eastern Europe: 2180

Germany's was 20% less but still respectable. Of course the Anglo-Saxon world dwarfed Germany in size. It had both efficiency and size on its side. It was a fast giant, Germany a fast midget.

But the GDPpc of the Hitlerian Empire would be 2900.
For Germany it would be an instant throwback 40 years back to the 19th century. The Eastern Europe was poor and would reach the UK's pre-war GDPpc in the seventies.
The empire would be a weak, slow, unstable giant unable to face its rivals economically or militarily in a long run. For Hitler with his pseudo-Darwinian philosophy all that was unacceptable and pointless.

But it could be remedied. Exterminate 80% of the East Europeans, leave the strongest and most productive and the Hitlerian Empire's GDPpc would skyrocket to 7860. An instant global superpower, relatively stronger, more dangerous to the US than the USSR in its best years.

So, what was it going to be 2900 or 7860? Or maybe it was better to stay at 5000 and forget the wars...

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#67

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2014, 16:59

Paul Lantos wrote:Re: calories -- an adult doing heavy manual labor would have a significant caloric deficit if restricted to 1600 calories per day, especially in the winter when basal caloric expenditure goes up to maintain body temperature.
Hi Paul:

I believe I already answered this when I used euphemistic term "Definitely a sparse diet, calorie-wise" a few posts earlier, especially when considering the Reichnährstand calculated the daily caloric requirements in 1939 for a German "heavy worker" as being 3,789 calories. Often times the context of an idea is lost in writings and if this is the case, my apologies. :) In regards to higher winter caloric requirements, that would largely depend where the work is being performed, i.e. indoors or outdoors as well as the level of heat or lack thereof inside the individuals abode as well as the amount and quality of the individual's clothing.
Paul Lantos wrote:
Gorque wrote:I believe one item that seems to be overlooked is the fact that the Heer had sufficient transport capabilities for either munitions or food, both not both. This being the case, wouldn't it be rational to conclude that whatever crops the Heer did capture in the Ukraine would be kept, for the most part, within the Ukraine as it wouldn't make sense to ship the crops to the Reich only to have foodstuffs shipped back into the Ukraine and in competition with armaments shipments.
Therefore wouldn't it be rational to conclude that the German leadership decided that starvation of the Soviet citizenry was subordinate to their war aims? And since a tremendous amount of planning went into both invasion and occupation policy, wouldn't it be rational to conclude that this was a premeditated policy of starvation?


Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of Generalplan Ost knows what their long-term aims were for the Slavic peoples. The topic of this thread however is "artificial" famine. If the famine in 1941 was artificial, then why were the food rations being reduced not only within the occupied nations of the German sphere, but also with the Reich itself? Clearly if the famine was artificial, wouldn't the excess food have been transported to the Reich in order to alleviate the reduced rations? A reading of Victor Klemperer's diary I Will Bear Witness for the winter of 1941 - '42 confirms the dearth of food available to be purchased by his German wife.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#68

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2014, 17:23

wm wrote:it's 1600 only if the fine print is not taken into account, and it said:
- Meat and meat products generally cannot be provided to these population groups in the current food situation.
- Instead of bread, foodstuffs (buckwheat, millet, etc.) can be given out.
- In cities where there are meat factories, special attention should be paid to the preparation of blood sausage etc. and the purposeful application of entrails. As long as local circumstances dictate, up to a third of the meat ration can be given out as fat.
The supply of butter for the civilian population is, as long as the need of the Wehrmacht has not been fully met, out of the question.
- As long as it is necessary as a result of the local circumstances, bread and foodstuffs can be interchanged during the distribution.
Karel Berkhoff, Everyday Life in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine
So low quality food and no meat, that heavy manual laborer was given a long cow entrail to enjoy at best.
Hi WM:

Two items I'd like to highlight here. Substituting fat for meat is actually a caloric increase as there a 9 calories per gram of fat in comparisons to only 4 for meat. This is not to say that the substitution is either healthier or nutritionally superior for the individual.

The second point is more of a question. In western Europe, a thriving black market sprang-up as it did within the Reich. Is it not conceivable that a black-market also emerged within the Ukraine in this time-frame that traded in foodstuffs? Does your book, Everyday Life in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine deal with this in any length?

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#69

Post by Sid Guttridge » 18 Jan 2014, 22:12

Hi lgr,

Thank you for your helpful and gracious response. I shall cherish it always.

"My point is that the Netherland was a food deficit region and that when food importation was stopped it underwent famine. The responsibility of the Germans was to try and maintain some level of food importation for the Netherlands after traditional sources from Allied countries were blocked. One of the regions they looked to replace these imports was the Ukraine - a traditional food exporting region."

What do you mean by "food deficit region"? That the Netherlands imported some food to supplement its diet? Or that without imported food the Netherlands would have starved even in peacetime? Or some other possibility?

What is the evidence that "One of the regions they looked to replace these imports was the Ukraine"? We know that was the case regarding the Reich, but the Netherlands? Was the Netherlands already so starving in 1941 that the Ukraine had to be invaded to feed it?

What was Germany's right unilaterally to distribute Ukrainian food to third parties? You almost make the German invasion of the Ukraine sound like the Nazi alternative to BandAid!

Germany hadn't invaded the Netherlands in WWI and the Dutch hadn't starved. It wasn't threatened by the Netherlands in 1940, but invaded anyway. In doing so, it automatically assumed responsibility for the basic feeding of the Dutch population, Ukrainian food or no Ukrainian food. In 1944-45 it failed to do so, but did not withdraw to allow others to do so. Germany had unilaterally created the Netherlands' dependent position and was therefore ultimately responsible for what followed.

The Nazis were actually intent on an "anschluss" with the Netherlands. The Dutch were amongst the last people they would deliberately have done to death. However, the fact remains that by 1944-45 the Dutch under German rule were starving and it was Berlin that was taking the differential decisions that ensured this.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#70

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2014, 01:52

Gorque wrote:Two items I'd like to highlight here. Substituting fat for meat is actually a caloric increase as there a 9 calories per gram of fat in comparisons to only 4 for meat. This is not to say that the substitution is either healthier or nutritionally superior for the individual.
That fat was actually poor quality margarine or something even more dreathfull...
Gorque wrote:The second point is more of a question. In western Europe, a thriving black market sprang-up as it did within the Reich. Is it not conceivable that a black-market also emerged within the Ukraine in this time-frame that traded in foodstuffs? Does your book, Everyday Life in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine deal with this in any length?
Western European black markets were child's play in comparison with those in Eastern Europe. Without them the cities in Poland, Ukraine, Belarus would be depopulated in no time. After all it was similarly 600-800 calories in Polish cities too.
Fortunately the Nazis usually didn't pay much attention to them.
They existed from the day one, and in the pre-war USSR always.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#71

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2014, 02:50

Gorque wrote: If the famine in 1941 was artificial, then why were the food rations being reduced not only within the occupied nations of the German sphere, but also with the Reich itself?
It was 20% less for paperpushers but still healthy 2000 calories.

The famine was artificial but not without good reasons, the main reason was that Germany needed much more food in 1941 and later.
Germany's harvests in 1940 and 1941 failed, its agriculture was in bad shape, Poland failed as a supplier (according to The Wages of Destruction), and there were millions of freshly arrived slave workers who needed food too.
So those people in Eastern Europe were superfluous not only for long but for short term economic reasons too.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#72

Post by little grey rabbit » 19 Jan 2014, 10:52

Therefore wouldn't it be rational to conclude that the German leadership decided that starvation of the Soviet citizenry was subordinate to their war aims? And since a tremendous amount of planning went into both invasion and occupation policy, wouldn't it be rational to conclude that this was a premeditated policy of starvation?
Ha! You mean like the tremendous amount of planning the Americans put into both the invasion and occupation policy of Iraq?

Sometimes cock-up is the better explanation than conspiracy. I mean you might conclude that when Robert Gallo began fishing for oncoviruses in primates from the Southwest National Primate Research centre at Litton Bionectics he was purposefully trying to cause genocide in Africa. But that might be to grant him and his sponsors more foresight than they were capable of.

You would first have to see how far the sabotage program of Soviet leadership was foreseen by the German planners. Such campaigns weren't carried out by France for example. In a sense you can see the Soviet leadership as prisoners of their own ideology, having convinced themselves they were the vanguard party whose continued existence was necessary for the future utopia, any measures they undertook for their own survival were justified regardless of the collateral damage caused to those suffering from false consciousness.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#73

Post by little grey rabbit » 19 Jan 2014, 11:14

As we are now moving into When-Hitler-finished-gassing-the-Jews-he-was-going-to-gas-the-Slavs territory we are reaching the point where useful historical discussion ends.

However, I will just pick up on this point
And this is the price paid by the Ukrainians at the end of 1941, 1000 calories per day for heavy physical work - the famine in Kiev and the Babi Yar massacres were the direct results of these allowances:
I can't answer to the extent food was being exported from the Ukraine in 1941 - I just pointed out the original source was conflating 1941 and later food exports when the situation improved.
Had the food exports in 1941 been small or non-existent, then there isn't a link between the 1900 calories German civilians were getting and those in the Ukraine. Anymore there is a link between the 3000 calories British civilians were getting and the food available to the people of Athens under British blockade.

If 1000 calories was the official ration then the expectation must have been that this could be supplemented in various ways.
For example the POW camps in the Ukraine were getting more than that - POWs obviously could not supplement rations.

This is from BA MA RW 41/13 for August 1943
Ueber den Gesundheitszustand ist folgendes zu berichten. Im Monat August wurden in Durchschnitt taeglich 2240 Kalorien an die Kriegsgefangene verabreicht, diese Zahl liegt nur wenig under der des Monats Juli
It is a useful source as it lists the distributions of food for POW camps in the Ukraine over a number of years. It did get low in the winter of 1941/1942 before moving about 2000 calories per day in May 1942 and never dropping back below. Unfortunately it was one of the last files I looked at during my visit to the Militararchiv and I didn't have time to jot down enough figures.
I think the trough was around 1700 calories, but someone would have to check.

The surrounding correspondence gave no support to the thesis that this was due to some premeditated starvation plan but simply that there were no food stocks available.

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#74

Post by Boby » 19 Jan 2014, 12:00

We have to distinguish from POW camps in the military zone (Armeegebiet and Heeresgebiet) and the civilian zones (RK Ukraine > Wehrmachtsbefehlshaber Ukraine).

From the OKH (i.e, military zone) directive of 21 October 1941:

Working POW's = 2.175 calories per day ("pro Tag")
non-working POW's = 1.487 "

And on 2 December 1941 they were raised to 2.335 (normal)/ 2.573 (heavy).

See: Hartmann, Wehrmacht im Ostkrieg, S. 590, Anm. 123 and S. 591, Anm. 128

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Re: The "artificial" famine in the German-occupied USSR

#75

Post by Gorque » 19 Jan 2014, 19:04

A few interesting tidbits I found last night while perusing Alfred C. Mierzejewski's The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich: A History of the German National Railway, Volume 2 1933-1945:
By early September trains loaded with booty began to arrive in Germany from the newly conquered areas. During the first two weeks of the month, Army Group South sent 601 car containing 7,950 tons of freight, including soy beans, gasoline, pigs, and paraffin, westward. This was the beginning of what Hitler and others in government hoped would become a flood, but the deluge never occurred because of bad weather and poorly maintained track.
(p. 98)

and ...
In contrast, the Ostbahn was having considerable difficulties keeping trains moving due to the fluctuations of flows caused by the advance of the German army. Traffic flowed in Germany normally through October, but difficulties arose in November. Part of the vital sugar beet crop was lost due to the transfer of locomotives and gondola cars to the increasingly troubled Ostbahn. Car placings in Germany became increasingly unstable, reflecting the greater burden placed on the marshalling yards as problems rippled westward from the front through the Ostbahn into the Reich. In November, car placings slumped to 16.4 percent below the number that had been achieved in November 1940, though slightly higher than in the difficult month of November 1939. They then recovered to just 1.79 percent lower than in the preceding year in December. The crisis struck in full force in January 1942, when car placings fell 13.8 percent below the figure for January 1941. In February they then fell 25.4 percent below the placings for the same month in 1941...
(pp 99-100)

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