The Forgotten Genocide: Germans in the east

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wm
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Re: The Forgotten Genocide: Germans in the east

#16

Post by wm » 07 Jun 2014, 23:33

It's just another case of rousing emotions and moral indignation for eyeballs and profit, nothing more. The very first sentence there betrays that:
15 million people of German decent (sic!) were tortured, beaten to death, starved, worked to death, thrown out, sent away and murdered.
How a sane person can equate murder, torture with being sent away? Most of those people were sent away not murdered or tortured.

And the East Europe is a huge territory, it's easy to pile up calamities sky high just because of the size, and the long period of time involved. But how often did an interaction between a German and an East European end up in torture or murder? One in ten, one in hundred thousand? They don't say, only the piling up is important there.
In fact the transferred Poles and the Germans still living there were more likely to cooperate and help each other than to engage in mutual torture, and their children to play together than murder themselves.
Interestingly in Breslau the freshly arrived Poles complained constantly that they were treated as second class citizens, the Soviet rulers and especially their new German "wives", prefered Germans.

Most of those Germans were victims of the Gulag and various filtration/security camps established by the Communists, because it was their way of subjugating their new conquests.
But really the Russians and Poles got the same treatment. The Soviet Union was fundamentally race-blind, its enemies were Germans, Russians, Poles and even other communists.
Excluding those camps one maybe two in hundred Germans was murdered in the Eastern territories ( by rabble that was doing that for fun and profit not by some dark avengers), certainly a huge number but not a genocide. Much more people died in the Warsaw Uprising.

It seems some people want PG wars - without rape, murder and torture - but unfortunately they are not and they were not available.

Lieutenant S. Chuikov
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Re: The Forgotten Genocide: Germans in the east

#17

Post by Lieutenant S. Chuikov » 08 Jun 2014, 21:34

wm wrote:It's just another case of rousing emotions and moral indignation for eyeballs and profit, nothing more. The very first sentence there betrays that:
15 million people of German decent (sic!) were tortured, beaten to death, starved, worked to death, thrown out, sent away and murdered.
How a sane person can equate murder, torture with being sent away? Most of those people were sent away not murdered or tortured.

And the East Europe is a huge territory, it's easy to pile up calamities sky high just because of the size, and the long period of time involved. But how often did an interaction between a German and an East European end up in torture or murder? One in ten, one in hundred thousand? They don't say, only the piling up is important there.
In fact the transferred Poles and the Germans still living there were more likely to cooperate and help each other than to engage in mutual torture, and their children to play together than murder themselves.
Interestingly in Breslau the freshly arrived Poles complained constantly that they were treated as second class citizens, the Soviet rulers and especially their new German "wives", prefered Germans.

Most of those Germans were victims of the Gulag and various filtration/security camps established by the Communists, because it was their way of subjugating their new conquests.
But really the Russians and Poles got the same treatment. The Soviet Union was fundamentally race-blind, its enemies were Germans, Russians, Poles and even other communists.
Excluding those camps one maybe two in hundred Germans was murdered in the Eastern territories ( by rabble that was doing that for fun and profit not by some dark avengers), certainly a huge number but not a genocide. Much more people died in the Warsaw Uprising.

It seems some people want PG wars - without rape, murder and torture - but unfortunately they are not and they were not available.
The best case situation is that the creator is just trying to stir up emotion for theatrical impact or profit. There's the possibility that she is a raging repressed Nazi. I don't think that she is, but there are plenty of examples of that. Either way, it's dangerous because Nazi apologists pick up on this and people who don't know better pick up on it, and it establishes a gateway for Nazi apologetics.

What you said about the equation, the only way that Nazi apologists can make moral equivalency arguments in the face of the statistics of Nazi atrocities is to lump every sort of injustice, no matter how trivial, against Germans together and vastly inflate the numbers. Like you said, the apologists try to make it seem like atrocities against Germans were frequent and ever present even when they were occasional or isolated. I've seen what they do. They'll take a vivid description of a Soviet platoon raping a town, take creative liberties with it, and then apply it to the whole of eastern Germany. The actual response was extremely mixed.

It is also profoundly ahistorical to ignore the context of these atrocities. The reason the explosions happened was because the Allies had seen the Holocaust and the result of the war arise from German nationalism, and they wanted resettle all Germans in Germany to prevent nationalistic plans to take over all German areas. As for atrocities, Richard Bessel stated something like "Germans found themselves treated the same as the conquered populations by the people who they had occupied."
Lieutenant S. Chuikov

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Cerdic
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Re: The Forgotten Genocide: Germans in the east

#18

Post by Cerdic » 15 Jun 2014, 14:39

The fate of Germans in the east was one of ethnic cleansing, not genocide.

While this does not in any way excuse these actions, a clear minority of German refugees died, according to more recent estimates - around 500,000 out of more than 12 million.

Many of these died not from intentional murder, but from exposure, such as freezing to death during deportations (some examples of this are recorded in the book Orderly and Humane)

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