The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

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Grellber
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The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#1

Post by Grellber » 13 Jul 2014, 13:23

Some years ago i made my frist tour dedicated to holocaust related matters to Poland and the Baltics. When I came to Majdanek the museum was about to be closed witch made the tour rather hasty. Imprinted in my memorery Are the two gas chambers to the right of the entrance. Theese are the two chambers of which there are many photos in books and on the net. It is also the chambers shown att the museum web site.

Only one thing disturbed me during the visit, that the chambers showing the distinkt blue colour was the one conneted to à tube of carbon monoxide, i would have expected it to be the other way around.

After this trip I have occasionaly read a few things about the place, but strikingly often the reference is 4, 6 and even 7 gas chambers. (The seventh supposed to have been integrated in the original crematoria building torched by the germans before they took off.

Please, enlighten me.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#2

Post by David Thompson » 13 Jul 2014, 15:18

Grellber -- See the discussion at:

The window in the Majdanek 'gas chamber'
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=143258


Grellber
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#3

Post by Grellber » 13 Jul 2014, 17:08

thanks. just read it. I am more than a little puzzled. either the place has undergone serious rebuild since russian liberation or the six chamber statement is bull. I remember nothing that indicates that four of six cells have been bown up or removed by other methods. However, info on the museum website indicates that a lot of stuff was stolen and some barracks trashed and used to make fire during the first period after liberation, before it could be protected as a museum. The building where bodies were incinerated is a post war reconstruction. Maybe bad reconstructions can explain the number of chambers and windows and pipes to the wrong room as well. Must be more people on this forum that have actually visited the place...

By the way I just looked at my own pictures from the blue stained chamber which i remember was the left one. I obviously never took a photo of the right one. I see no window but I se some light coming from the left from what I guess is a light bulb, but sure, there is some kind of oddity there as the supposed light bulb is a bit inside the wall (not mounted on a flat wall). I also note that some sort of sensors has meen mounted to the ceiling since the other pictures were taken also adding some cable work.

Again. what happened to the missing chambers?

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wm
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#4

Post by wm » 13 Jul 2014, 20:25

According to this page, there were six chambers, two were used for gassing (I, III) , one never used (II), the rest only for disinfection purposes (not certain but probable).

The chambers I and III (the small building under the freestanding roof - it was destroyed by nature on two different occasions so they gave up on rebuilding):
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the place then:
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and now:
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Grellber
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#5

Post by Grellber » 13 Jul 2014, 21:01

Interesting. years have passes since my visit, but i remembered I entered through the shower section and then got to Chambers 1+2 and 1 was the stained one. I never realised there was a no 3 behind no 2 and I do not Think it is accessible from the inside of the building (from showers). So why did they use no 3 instead of number 2? From where did you get the info on which were used etc? <8polich webpage I assume but do they explain it further?

Looks like an interesting webpage, pity I know no polish.

No 4 I rember as a Little "room" without doors where the cannister with piping stood. Close to stained chamber no 1 which i felt was odd, but ofcource the outlet could have been in any or all of the Three Chambers.

Here are a few of my photos from June 2009 (Thre second photo just might be chamber 2 as itt looks less Deep than the other one):
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#6

Post by David Thompson » 14 Jul 2014, 02:44

More on the gas chambers of Majdanek:

Liberation of Majdanek 1944
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=18281

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wm
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#7

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2014, 09:40

They say there the building was an exact copy of a disinfection building in Dachau and for the same purpose. During its construction a decision was made to use it as gas chambers so they changed a few things. Initially the chambers I and II were a single chamber like the III.
They didn't need any more because the number of murdered was relatively small, the newest estimation puts the camp's total number of victims at 78000, the number of gassed is a fraction of that.

The conversion of chambers III and I were done on different times so they look different and rather haphazard. In the end they had a larger (Zyklon B and carbon monoxide) and a smaller chamber (only carbon monoxide).
No 4 was for III, 14 for I.
The sources are the findings of the special Polish-Soviet commission (August 1944), and a few others.

Grellber
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#8

Post by Grellber » 14 Jul 2014, 18:25

Very interesting. I am surprised that this explaining info is not available to the english speaking public. I now also conclude that the journalist etc reporting from the site had had to much vodka from their hosts and that the numer is 3 (or maybe 4 if therevwas something in the original crenatoria building). It certainly makes sence that this construction was not originally constructed for the purpose of killing human beings, even if that happened.

Quite amazing that one can pre read, plan a trip, visit and then come back home with the incorrect info and perception. Not a good thing for all the memorial sites and museums. No wonder there are revisionists.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#9

Post by siwiec » 14 Jul 2014, 20:03

Grellber wrote:Quite amazing that one can pre read, plan a trip, visit and then come back home with the incorrect info and perception. Not a good thing for all the memorial sites and museums. No wonder there are revisionists.
Memorials and museums and their exhibitions have very little to do with "revisionism" (Holocaust denial). I have so far never met a "revisionist" who would have become such for just some incorrect representations; mostly denial is due to their conspiratorial and/or Nazist world view.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#10

Post by Paul Lantos » 14 Jul 2014, 22:01

Lots of memorials use outdated figures that were either current or at least controversial at the time the memorials were built. Chelmno I've read still cites 400,000 and Sobibor 250,000, but neither is correct.

This is not unique to Holocaust memorialization. I've been to several major slave trade sites in Africa. Cape Coast Castle and Elmina Castle (both in Ghana) were truly immense slaving centers and central to the slave trade. Ile de Goree in Senegal, other hand, plays itself way more than it deserves in the history of slavery, has a really great museum, and like many such sites is even a pilgrimage site of sorts, despite the fact that it was historically trivial. It's just a major tourist draw and a symbol of solidarity, so this all tends to make the site resistant to honestly presenting itself.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#11

Post by wm » 15 Jul 2014, 00:24

Grellber wrote:Very interesting. I am surprised that this explaining info is not available to the english speaking public. I now also conclude that the journalist etc reporting from the site had had to much vodka from their hosts and that the numer is 3 (or maybe 4 if therevwas something in the original crenatoria building). It certainly makes sence that this construction was not originally constructed for the purpose of killing human beings, even if that happened.

Quite amazing that one can pre read, plan a trip, visit and then come back home with the incorrect info and perception. Not a good thing for all the memorial sites and museums. No wonder there are revisionists.
As I understand it much of the info is quite new - they found some new documents lately, for example the estimation of the number of victims is from 2005. Earlier they really thought there were six chambers - well there were (in other parts of the camp), but most probably were used for delousing only.

Poland being a relatively poor country lacks the money to properly maintain the mass of historical artifacts on its territory - there are simply too many of them, and to properly document each of them. The Polish concentration camps are especially expensive to maintain - it's done for the price of many other relics slowly turning to dust right now.
For example looking at the Auschwitz State Museum finances, the EU chips in 18%, the rest of the world (including the US, Israel) less than 3%. It's pathetic, everyone wants to wave the flag and nothing more.


The Sobibor Museum web site says 170,000-250,000 victims. The Kulmhof Death Camp in Chelmno web site - 200,000. The info on the monuments there, from the older days maybe be different - brass is expensive...

Grellber
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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#12

Post by Grellber » 16 Jul 2014, 17:43

Yes brass seem to be expensive. Anyhow I would like to say thank you for good info and discussion. This one (and a few other things) have been disturbing me for quite some time. And i agree, there should be some global fund to finace the caretaking of monuments that are important for mankind.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#13

Post by Paul Lantos » 17 Jul 2014, 01:44

Grellber wrote:And i agree, there should be some global fund to finace the caretaking of monuments that are important for mankind.
UNESCO for one is a big stakeholder. This is particularly a problem in poorer developing countries where the threats to culturally and historically important sites are much greater than at the former camp sites in Europe.

Not all the funds are wisely used either. I'm quite taken by Robert Jan van Pelt (architectural historian specializing in Auschwitz) who fervently argues that the reconstructed parts of Birkenau (in particular) are somewhat of an abomination. What is wrong with letting the barracks decay and fall apart, rather than make it into a quasi wax museum of reconstructions?

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#14

Post by siwiec » 17 Jul 2014, 09:31

Paul Lantos wrote: I'm quite taken by Robert Jan van Pelt (architectural historian specializing in Auschwitz) who fervently argues that the reconstructed parts of Birkenau (in particular) are somewhat of an abomination. What is wrong with letting the barracks decay and fall apart, rather than make it into a quasi wax museum of reconstructions?
Yes, reconstruction made in 1945 and after are somewhat paradoxical as at the same time they try to keep everything as it was and just replace parts that have decayed. It is also a kind of a peculiar policy to maintain the ruins of the crematoria as they were after they were demolished by the Germans in 1945 even though the ruins were to some extent demolished further because of stealing and digging by gold hunters and others later on. Trying to keep as original as possible something that is, let's face it, not that original and/or authentic in the first place: kind of waste of time and money and efforts. If one is searching for the "authentic" in Auschwitz, or, more precisely, wants to experience it is as authentic and original as possible, then why not rebuild the Birkenau crematoria and its gas chambers; that's what Pressac once suggested, IIRC.

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Re: The correct Numbers of gas chambers in Majdanek

#15

Post by little grey rabbit » 17 Jul 2014, 11:12

The Delousing and Disinfection Bathhouse was a fairly standard design used across the Wehrmacht and the SS, slightly modified for KZ conditions.

There was a shower room, a drying room and off the end two chambers for Zyklon B and Steam disinfection.

There, of course, nothing to prevent either room be used to gas people as well as clothes.

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