Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

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michael mills
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#256

Post by michael mills » 31 Aug 2009, 02:09

These are such unusual cases, that it would be better to have some other source than Chang`s book.
Arek, you are right. Iris Chang was mentally ill, which eventually led to her suicide. The quotation from her book which you cited is a clear example of her mental illness, which obviously involved sexual fantasies which she projected onto the Japanese.

If you look back over this thread, you will find some links by me and others to sources which give a more balanced view of what happened at Nanjing after its capture by Japanese forces. Those sources show that there were large-scale executions by Japanese forces, primarily of captured Chinese men considered to be "illegal combatants" by the Japanese, and also some killings and ill-treatment of Chinese civilians, but that the total number of victims was far less than the hundreds of thousands claimed in Chinese sources.

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Arek
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#257

Post by Arek » 31 Aug 2009, 14:35

Arek, you are right. Iris Chang was mentally ill, which eventually led to her suicide. The quotation from her book which you cited is a clear example of her mental illness, which obviously involved sexual fantasies which she projected onto the Japanese.
I don`t know whether this is a case of her "disability" or not.

I am just asking, because she refers to "chinese battalion commander Guo Qi, who "saw or heard" of such cases. But there is no information when that commander gave such testimony. The man, who according to Chang, knew about rapes inside one family, was also "a German diplomat", but there are no information about his name.

It is good manner for every historian that if he is making such serious accusation, he should give us some source of that information. I am not saying that there were no cases of forcing family memeber to rape each other, but simultaneosly I can`t believe in reports that are not supported in history sources. And the big problem is, that many descriptions in Chang`s book aren`t.
If you look back over this thread, you will find some links by me and others to sources which give a more balanced view of what happened at Nanjing after its capture by Japanese forces. Those sources show that there were large-scale executions by Japanese forces, primarily of captured Chinese men considered to be "illegal combatants" by the Japanese, and also some killings and ill-treatment of Chinese civilians, but that the total number of victims was far less than the hundreds of thousands claimed in Chinese sources.
I have read this thread many times and I am especially satisfied with oportunity to read David Askew`s balanced theories which have lead me to B.T. Wakabayshi`s The Nanking Atrocity, 1937–38: Complicating the Picture
Actually I am looking for some details to my thesis, so that I wondered whether descriptions of such unhuman behaviour toward chinese civilians, was comfirmed by any other author.


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Peter H
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#258

Post by Peter H » 01 Sep 2009, 14:10

Have a look at The Nanjing Massacre: A Japanese Journalist Confronts Japan's National Shame,Honda Katsuichi.
http://www.amazon.com/Nanjing-Massacre- ... 0765603357


Edward Drea mentions the difficulties though of finding primary source documents,diaries from the period here:
http://www.archives.gov/iwg/japanese-wa ... essays.pdf

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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#259

Post by David Thompson » 02 Feb 2010, 00:00

Japan, China still at odds over 'Rape of Nanking'

Mari Yamaguchi, Associated Press Writer – Mon Feb 1, 8:50 am ET

TOKYO – Japan acknowledged its wartime military caused tremendous damage to China in the "Rape of Nanking" massacre, but the two sides failed again to agree on the death toll, a joint study obtained Monday said.

The massacre was one of the worst incidents during Japan's invasion of China in the first half of the 20th century, with Beijing claiming as many as 300,000 people died, but Tokyo saying the toll was far less.

The report was written by Japanese and Chinese historians appointed by the two governments. In it, Japanese scholars confirmed Japan's Imperial Army "massacred" war prisoners, soldiers and citizens in the city of Nanking, now called Nanjing, in the December 1937 attack, and committed repeated rapes of women, arson and looting.

But the two sides failed to agree on the death toll.

The Japanese listed figures ranging from 20,000 to 200,000, citing differences on the definition of "massacre," the area and the span of the event. China, which compiled data from records of domestic and international tribunals, put the death toll at more than 300,000.

The report cited many pending lawsuits filed by victims of Japan's brutalities, including using and abandoning poison gas weapons, and forcing women to serve as sex slaves for front-line soldiers and men as slave laborers.

Japan invaded or colonized large parts of Asia in the first half of the 20th century. Many Chinese believe that Japan hasn't shown sufficient remorse for atrocities committed, a sense of resentment that has flared repeatedly after attempts by conservative Japanese lawmakers to defend their country's wartime actions.

Japanese ultraconservatives typically claim the death toll in the Rape of Nanking massacre was grossly inflated.

Japan and China agreed the 1937-1945 Sino-Japanese War was an "act of aggression," defining Japan as the aggressor. "We must admit that the Japanese side was responsible for creating most of the causes," the report said.

Sumio Hatano, professor of the University of Tsukuba and one of 10 historians involved, said "a spate of unlawful actions" by the Japanese military inflicted a heavy toll on China's civilian population, leaving "a deep scar that has prevented the peoples of Japan and China from establishing a new relationship after the war."

Japanese Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada welcomed the report, despite delays and differences that still remain. He said it was just the first step and suggested a second round.

"If two sides could gain mutual understanding just a little, we can call it a success," Okada said.

The report concludes a project launched in 2006 to promote mutual understanding on parts of the history that have often strained ties between the two neighbors. The study was issued over the weekend and obtained Monday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100201/ap_ ... hpbmFzdA--

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Peter H
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#260

Post by Peter H » 14 Feb 2010, 06:05


mdbvma
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#261

Post by mdbvma » 04 Apr 2013, 05:40

In 2001 a now-defunct Japanese magazine called "Shokun!" did a survey asking 17 questions about the Nanking Massacre to a variety of individuals. For English speakers who might be interested, I posted a full translation of the survey here.

https://sites.google.com/site/historica ... kingsurvey

I found some of the answers given by Takeshi Hara, Tokushi Kasahara, and Yutaka Yoshida to be especially thoughtful.

zhambler
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Omitted Nanjing massacre in Chinese media---once

#262

Post by zhambler » 21 Sep 2014, 07:29

I first got provoked in this topic when I saw an article by Southern Weekly named “The once "disappeared"Nanjing Massacre”(曾“消失”的南京大屠杀),which cites Jing Shenghong, a historian scholar's memory and Wu Xianbing,curator of a Nanjing Massacre museum''s memory to say in 1970s the incident didn't appear in textbooks and even a kid born in nanjing could very well be unaware of it. And I have found some proof to show that in China, the incident had been broadcast in 1950s and be omitted to a great extent between 1960 and 1980.

A master thesis named “Film production and collective memory(影像生产与集体记忆——以南京大屠杀影片为中心)” mentioned in its first page that in three newspapers based near Nanjing,Xinhua Daily,Nanjing Daily and Yangtze Night, reports mentioning the incident turned out to be 5 in 1950 and 33 in 1951.After that until 1980,basically there is none.A thread named "Non-mainstream keywords of People's Daily 1949-1976(1949-1976《人民日报》非主流关键词)"appeared in 2007 when there was an non-restriction online People's Daily database.It says on People's Daily,the massacre appeared for 13 times from 1950 to 1952, mainly associating it with US's re-arming Japan schedule. And it appeared again in 1960 ,running 5 articles from may 16th to may 30th. And then it reappeared in 1982,when the Japanese textbook issue broke out. And by the way, in 1949 the special term "Great Nanjing Massacre(南京大屠杀,Nanjing Da Tusha)"appeared once,referring to a quell of protest in Nanjing by nationalist government.(http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-no01-374148-1.shtml)


Zhu Shiwei朱世巍,a historian author mentioned in his book Eastern Front:The first winter(东线:第一个冬天)that when he was a pupil the first time he learned about the massacre he was told by his teacher gingerly,as if it was a taboo. Zhu was born in late 1970s.


An article named 《南京大屠杀的历史记忆(1937—1985)》Mei Ru'o(梅汝璈), the judge of Nanjing Tribune was accused of boasting the war terror""instigating ethnic hatred" "depicting the valor of invaders"for writing article about the massacre in 1960s(The idealogical trend was that war was conducted by some japanese warlords).The article was on The Journal of Studies of China’s Resistance War's 2009 fourth issue.

In an offical online interview, someone asked why there was no massacre in his primary school textbook and why the gov didn't start research right after 1949.The host answered the initial research was started since late 1950s in a small scale by Nanjing University.During the Cultural Revolution,there was no research.(http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2005-08-10/17206659124s.shtml)

I have bought some old-time textbooks.In 1957's edition of Zhongguo Lishi(中国历史)vol4,the history textbook for junior middle school by People's Education Press,the massacre was recorded.However, in 1960's edition vol4,page 62,the massacre is gone. And in a history textbook used in cultural revolution's Beijing, 北京市中学试用课本面-中国历史,there was no massacre.

On 1960's Middle School History Teacher's Manual(中学历史教师手册),published by Shanghai Education Press there was no nanjing.

On 1977's Chronicle of Chinese Events(中国历史大事纪年),a reference book by Xuzhou Normal University for history teacher,there was no nanjing massacre in 1937. Another Xuzhou Normal's reference book,Chronicle of World's Events(世界历史大事纪年) omitted it as well,instead it says that US "murdered" Hiroshima's residents.

And last but not least, there are a lot of biased editors(probably from China) and admins on wikipedia. when I tried to add some of the materials(Southern Weekend and Zhu Shiwei) to the entried,someone deleted them using absurd excuses like "Zhu Shiwei has no source"(Zhu Shiwei is the author of a book so he is legitimately source by all policy).When I sued him with vandalism. Some admin blocked me with the name of edit war.So much for the grand,neutral,objective,sourced wikipedia.

Some photos:
Image
Image

Junior middle school's Zhongguo Lishi,page 62,nothing about nanjing massacre.


Image
Beijing's Senior middle school history text book in cultural revolution

Image
Image
Another middle school test preparation book.no massacre.

Chinese threads for further reading:

http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3103354842
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_a158eb890102uxuv.html
http://tieba.baidu.com/p/3282134490?pid ... 7111562410

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Marcus
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#263

Post by Marcus » 13 Dec 2014, 12:54

Chinese President Xi Jinping has presided over his country's first state commemoration of the Nanjing massacre.
China says 300,000 civilians were massacred when the city was occupied by Japan's troops in 1937, although some Japanese nationalists dispute this.
President Xi told survivors that to deny a crime was to repeat it but insisted the ceremony was to promote peace, not prolong hatred.
Relations between the two countries have been strained in recent years.
They have clashed over island territory in the East China Sea as well as over Japan's insistence on honouring its war dead, including convicted war criminals, at the Yasukuni shrine.
China's Xi Jinping said that "history would not allow" anyone to deny the Nanjing massacre
The ceremony, which came on the 77th anniversary of the massacre, is part of three new public holidays intended to mark the conflict between the two countries.
A crowd of about 10,000 people attended the event in Nanjing, taking part in a minute's silence to honour those killed. They included survivors of the massacre, as well as soldiers and students.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30460818

/Marcus

manfredzhang
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Re: Warcrimes in Nanking 1937

#264

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 16:10

Marcus Wendel wrote:
Chinese President Xi Jinping has presided over his country's first state commemoration of the Nanjing massacre.
China says 300,000 civilians were massacred when the city was occupied by Japan's troops in 1937, although some Japanese nationalists dispute this.
President Xi told survivors that to deny a crime was to repeat it but insisted the ceremony was to promote peace, not prolong hatred.
Relations between the two countries have been strained in recent years.
They have clashed over island territory in the East China Sea as well as over Japan's insistence on honouring its war dead, including convicted war criminals, at the Yasukuni shrine.
China's Xi Jinping said that "history would not allow" anyone to deny the Nanjing massacre
The ceremony, which came on the 77th anniversary of the massacre, is part of three new public holidays intended to mark the conflict between the two countries.
A crowd of about 10,000 people attended the event in Nanjing, taking part in a minute's silence to honour those killed. They included survivors of the massacre, as well as soldiers and students.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30460818

/Marcus

Don't know why the Chinese gov continues the fabrication of 300,000 dead.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/War_Dama ... _Mar._1938

Table 4 shows the civilian deaths within the city of Nanjing. Table 25 shows the deaths in rural area. when including 4,200 taken away it's a bit over 33,000. 33,000 vs 300,000 huh?

manfredzhang
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Re:

#265

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 16:18

michael mills wrote:
Warcrimes that Nazi did were well known in western countries , but few Westerners knew the warcrimes done by Japanese troops during WWⅡ。Holocaust in Nanking was just one of thousands massacres in Asia during WWⅡ。
Indeed.

During the 19th and 20th centuries, hundreds of millions of Chinese were killed by other Chinese.

Think only of the Taiping Revolt in the 19th century, or, in the 20th, the constant warfare between rival warlords, the civila war between the Guomindang and the Communists, or the huge loss of life caused by the Communist Government in the 1950s and 1960s.

Whatever was done to Chinese by Japanese pales into insignificance against what Chinese did to each other, and the sooner the Chinese of today can wake up to themselves and accept that fact, and stop their continual whinging about what others have doen to them, the better.

Indeed. Not to mention the one child policy successfully reduced the Chinese population by some 400 Million in 30 years. And it was regarded as an achievement by the Chinese government.

http://bitex-cn.com/?m=Material&a=newsh ... ringid=643

See how good we are by killing more than 10 million unborn babies every year.

manfredzhang
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Re:

#266

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 16:28

bcseydlitz wrote:If the German society commemorated Hitler these days and influential people said Holocaust was non-existent and even it was quite right during the war , what would Jews do ? Can you imagine . It was same between China and Japan . Althought there are many pacifist in Japan ,unfortunately pacifist power is weaker day by day in Japan . And Chinese nationalism is infuriated more and more by the behavior of Japanese . It may out of control! So dose the Japanese . I'm really afraid there'll be a cruel war break out between the two eastern countries in future .
Simple. The holocaust is a truth. The 300,000 dead in Nanjing is a fabrication. You can ask no one including the Japanese people to admit a fabrication.

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Re:

#267

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 16:35

Caldric wrote:
bcseydlitz wrote: It may out of control! So dose the Japanese . I'm really afraid there'll be a cruel war break out between the two eastern countries in future .
That would be a sad day indeed for mankind, may it never come to pass. The complications of such a war are hard to even imagine, for I have no doubt of Nuclear weapons being used on a global scale. Do not doubt the Japanese ability to build these weapons quickly and in numbers. For they have plenty of the needed resources and without a doubt the knowledge. Not to mention the knowledge of intercontinental ballistic missiles. ICBM’s if you like. Also with Chinese technology reaching space there is no doubt of the outcome of such a war.

Although I sympathize greatly with the Chinese conditions under the Imperial Japanese it is important to remember that the son should not be held responsible for the fathers sins. I read “Rape of Nanking” and although there are those on the forum who will say it is nonsense, I have no doubt it happened. The same people will say the Jewish plight was nonsense.

No matter how the Chinese treated each other in the past, this does not excuse Japanese actions. Japan was a cruel and barbaric nation, there is no excuse for their actions. Michael Mills would make people think there are however reason or justification for it. Consider that if it is OK in Mill’s world for the Egyptian treatment of Jew, this makes it ok for Germans to shoot children and stuff them in Gas Chambers. His logic is flawed at its foundation and he knows it, or should and if he does not then I do not mind reminding him of it. He will be the first to say we should not judge because of historical actions yet he uses it for defense. There is no deference for Japanese barbarity in Asia, none whatsoever.

Rape of Nanking used many fabrications by both Communist and Nationalist Chinese. Many assertions were rejected by main stream historians. The author shot herself when she realized much of the material she used for research were fabrications.

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Re:

#268

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 18:01

Larry D. wrote:The Japanese didn't even keep Chinese prisoners after they were tortured and interrogated. They were beheaded or bayonetted.

As for the shrines, perhaps this is why we are seeing such an immense and worrisome buildup of Chinese military forces right now. The Western media hypothesizes that it's for an eventual invasion of Taiwan. But maybe its for an eventual invasion of Honshū. Think about it. :wink:

They did keep some Chinese prisoners.

manfredzhang
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Re:

#269

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 18:25

Peter H wrote:They... seems to infer a collective response on the Japanese people that has not yet been established by anyone in the discussions so far.

I agree that while Japan has been limited in compensation to the victims of the war,its aid to other Asian countries post-1945 might be seen as a face-saving response to get around this dilemma.Which nation donated the largest amount to the Tsunami disaster fund?

Interesting that Communist China also refused Japanese compensation approaches in the 1960s.
As a Chinese national for 30 years I know very well how those propaganda influenced the ordinary Chinese people. Even though I never trusted the Chinese Communists, I still had a bad feeling for Japan for a long time. I am grateful that I came out of China and have the access to so much information to beat the Chinese government's propaganda. Now I have a very positive view for Japan.

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Re:

#270

Post by manfredzhang » 03 Sep 2015, 18:27

Panzermahn wrote:
Peter H wrote:List of Japanese war apologies so far:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wa ... d_by_Japan
None of the apologies by the Japanese leaders mentioned a single sentence of "comfort women"

Please bear this in mind that a general apology is different from a specific apology.

Regards
Panzermahn
I don't follow the logic why Japanese government needs to apologize for comfort women.

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