Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#16

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 27 Jan 2015, 09:14

Hi edgardo,
Well if it is a well established fact, I can assure that it was well established by other documents, not this.
Some threads in this section that deal with the Holocaust in the Crimea include the following:

Mass grave of fascism victims found in Crimea
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=47302

The Wiking Division, The SS-Ahnenerbe and Einsatzgruppe D
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1269815


"Die 11. Armee und die "Endlösung" 1941/42: Eine Dokumentensammlung mit Kommentaren"
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &p=1192741

You must show the correct sources if you make a schollarly work.
I don’t have to do anything, as I didn’t write the book.

What I am saying is

a) It is a caption to a scan of a document on page 134

b) “Zu den akten” is mistranslated as “Juden Aktion” - yes that is an error. However, if the document is a list of security operations done the week of March 17, 1942, and the handwritten annotations document ethnic cleansing operations, then that mitigates things a bit.

c) Not all author’s get to write the captions in their books.

d) Errors happen. I just finished Lizzie Collingham’s [The Taste of War and found it absolutely brilliant - a must read book on WWII. In it on page 185, she mistakenly refers to “Florian Geyer” as an individual SS soldier as opposed to a honor title for the 8th SS Division. Is it a mistake? Definitely. Does it torpedo her work and make the book worthless? No.

As you say, "a well established fact"; it can´t be too much difficult then, to put the right documents.
You’re welcome to read his section on the German occupation (p.217 onwards) and check his footnotes and sources. If you find more errors, post them here! You could also consider contacting Robert Forczyk or Osprey Publishing and alert them to the error. Many authors publish errata, notes and additional commentary on their websites about their published works.

And please, this in not an error in a picture caption, it´s a whole paragraph explanation, a very biased interpretation of the document and a misguided interpretation.
I dunno - this seems to be protesting too much, especially since Forczyk seems to be a pretty respected author and extremely knowledgeable about the 1941-45 Crimean theater of war.

It`s a well established fact (with the right documents) that the nazis kill jews and other people during WWII but you can´t try to prove this with documents that not prove that. With this conduct you only give the neonazis and argument that you are a liar and that you use documents that don´t prove nothing.
I am sympathetic to the scrutiny under which Holocaust historians are subject to, with doubter and deniers eager to pounce on every possible error or discrepancy. However, I don’t think one wrong caption in a book puts the entire Holocaust in the Crimea into doubt.

User avatar
Reichskriegsgericht
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 02 Jun 2004, 12:39
Location: Germany

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#17

Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 27 Jan 2015, 12:21

Checking the photo in the first posting, we have something like a post book.

'Bearbeitung nach Ausgang des Schriftstücks' means 'handling after the outgoing of the document'. 'Empfänger' means 'recipient', 'Datum' is 'date', 'Anlagen' is 'enclosures', 'kurzer Inhalt' means 'short description of the content', 'Bemerkungen' is 'comments' and 'Verbleib' means 'whereabouts'.

In the first line under 'short description' is noted 'Dankschreiben für Lagebericht' (=Thank you-note for a situation report), in line 2 under 'Verbleib' it says 'Arbeits-und Sozialpolitik' (Labor- and social policy), in line 4,5 and 6 we find 'Aufbaustab R' (construction HQ R), 'Zentralabteilung (central department), 'Fürsorge ' (welfare).

Doubting the Holocaust is not the point. The point is that Mr Forczyk accuses the reviewer on Amazon, who correctly noted his mistake, of being a Holocaust denier, despite the fact, that he himself doesn't understand his own document and simply made up the whole 'Judenakten' relation. Mr Forczyk can not read Sütterlin or German and also missed the empty space between 'zu' and 'den' and 'Akten'. Which makes you wonder how sloppy he might have evaluated the other primary sources (NARA records for AOK 11 and 17) he claims to have used.


history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#18

Post by history1 » 27 Jan 2015, 21:30

Reichskriegsgericht wrote: One of the Amazon reviews ist quite revealing. Someone pointed out exact the same mistake and has been accused by Mr Forczyk of being a holocaust denier. [...]
That´s me.

edgardo gil
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 05:56
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay.

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#19

Post by edgardo gil » 27 Jan 2015, 22:09

Rob, what´s the point with your post?
Nobody, nor me denied the mass killing, do you read when I said "I can assure that it was well established by other documents"
Do you understand what I mean?, I mean that I know and I read other documents that prove this.
But not this, what is the problem with accept that the author makes an error in the document caption? a big error if I could name it error.
I don´t need to read anything more to know that the nazis kill astounding number of innocent people, I know that. Nor I´m not denying that the nazis kill innocent people in Crimea, I just said, this document don´t prove anything.
Welcome for the links, send it to the author I guess that him needed more than me.

But in about to c) that´s a point. I assume that the author write the captions or al least read the captions. Or al least he should must read all the captions, there are many examples in books of horrible captions mistakes.
If you can assure that the caption is not an author´s argument, that would be a nice thing to the author reputation and I´ll celebrate that, I don´t have nothing personal with him, I just only find -in my humble opinion- an error in a book and only want to listen the opinion of ohters that knowing more of german language that me.
If I write a book and any person dare to put a single line without my permission the publisher will confront a demand.

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#20

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 27 Jan 2015, 23:14

Hi History 1,

Not sure if when you say "that's me" you mean you're the person on the Amazon.com thread that wrote
The letters "J" and "Z" are unmistakable in Süterlin script!
but

just wanted to point out that "Zu den Akten" is not written in sutterlin script (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin) but in a Fraktur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur)

edgardo gil
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 11 Feb 2006, 05:56
Location: Montevideo, Uruguay.

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#21

Post by edgardo gil » 27 Jan 2015, 23:27

I agree, it´s not sütterlin script, if so, the translation would be more difficult indeed. And I don´t to know what would be the translation then.

User avatar
Reichskriegsgericht
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 02 Jun 2004, 12:39
Location: Germany

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#22

Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 28 Jan 2015, 00:03

Rob - wssob2 wrote: just wanted to point out that "Zu den Akten" is not written in sutterlin script (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin) but in a Fraktur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur)
You are right, it is Fraktur, not Sütterlin. Which means Mr. Forczyk can't read Fraktur.

panzerhan
Member
Posts: 216
Joined: 09 Feb 2006, 23:33
Location: Samsun / TURKEY

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#23

Post by panzerhan » 28 Jan 2015, 16:16

As a person who wanted to read about the Crimean Campaign in WWII, Robert Forczyk's book was on my shopping list, but after this, I'm not so sure anymore.

So can you advise me books which deal with the Crimean Campaign in WWII?

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#24

Post by history1 » 28 Jan 2015, 16:56

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Hi History 1, [...]
just wanted to point out that "Zu den Akten" is not written in sutterlin script (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sütterlin) but in a Fraktur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraktur)
Thanks Rob, but anyway if it´s Sütterlin or Fraktur it´s not "Judenakten".

Cheers,
Roman

PS.: I´m reading currently a book in Polish about the subcamps of the KL Stutthof, author is the polish historian Dr. Marek Orski. Some of my observations so far:
- German rank "Rittmeister", a commissioned cavalry officer, translates as "master of the knights"!
- caption to the photography of a payroll for the Stutthof concentration camp staff: Dealing with the period "1.-10. February" clearly readable at the top of the document explained by Orski as "Payroll for Febuary".
- The function "SS-SDG", what means "SS - medic" explained in the text as "SS sanitary engineer"

It´s not that nobody makes errors- it´s about how authors are responding to!

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#25

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Jan 2015, 17:25

As a person who wanted to read about the Crimean Campaign in WWII, Robert Forczyk's book was on my shopping list, but after this, I'm not so sure anymore.
I think your crazy to let internet flamebait dissuade you.
So can you advise me books which deal with the Crimean Campaign in WWII?
R.Forczyk is considered an expert. He's written multiple books on it.

I thought his book on the Warsaw Uprising was excellent.

siwiec
Member
Posts: 223
Joined: 22 Jul 2010, 23:49

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#26

Post by siwiec » 28 Jan 2015, 17:40

Rob - wssob2 wrote: R.Forczyk is considered an expert. He's written multiple books on it.
Who considers him an expert and what is his specific area of expertice? Writing multiple books does not make you an expert (Forczyk has published about 25 books within last 10 years, one might wonder if that is done at the expense of accuracy).

Rob - wssob2
Member
Posts: 2387
Joined: 15 Apr 2002, 21:29
Location: MA, USA

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#27

Post by Rob - wssob2 » 28 Jan 2015, 18:27

Siwec - I consider him an expert.

http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Forczyk/e/ ... =8-1-fkmr0

He has three academic degrees and is a twenty year veteran of the US Army.
(Forczyk has published about 25 books within last 10 years, one might wonder if that is done at the expense of accuracy
Osprey Publishing, one of the more renowned military history published in the English langauge, hired him twenty five times to write books for them.

And yes, when a military history publisher comes back to an author multiple times, I think that's fair indication of his bona fides as an expert.

I think that's indication that he knows his stuff.

I've read both his Demjansk and Warsaw Uprising books and they were excellent.

I think your questions are examples of intellectual laziness and a too quick eagerness to slag an author.
Robert Forczyk has a PhD in International Relations and National Security from the University of Maryland and a strong background in European and Asian military history. He retired as a lieutenant colonel from the US Army Reserves having served 18 years as an armor officer in the US 2nd and 4th infantry divisions and as an intelligence officer in the 29th Infantry Division (Light). Dr. Forczyk is currently a consultant in the Washington, DC area. The author lives in Laurel, MD.
from http://www.randomhouse.com/highschool/c ... view=print

Frankly, this isnt the first time an author has been slagged on this forum for picayune issues in an attempt to discredit their Holocaust on Waffen-SS research.

siwiec
Member
Posts: 223
Joined: 22 Jul 2010, 23:49

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#28

Post by siwiec » 28 Jan 2015, 18:38

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Siwec - I consider him an expert.
Ok, but that is something I already figured out. His degree you referred to does not seem to be from history, but of course indicates some kind of an ability to conduct research. Has he published any peer reviewed stuff lately?

User avatar
Reichskriegsgericht
Member
Posts: 134
Joined: 02 Jun 2004, 12:39
Location: Germany

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#29

Post by Reichskriegsgericht » 28 Jan 2015, 19:05

Most of Forczyk's books deal with the eastern front in WW2, but he also has written about the Gran Sasso Raid, aerial and naval warfare in WW2, Toulon 1793, the Nez Perce Campaign and the Russo-Japanese War. None of his books are scholarly works, they all are 'popular military history entertainment', AFAIK all published by Osprey.

IMHO, an author who can't read, evaluate and cross-check primary sources of the subject he is writing about, because he doesn't speak the language, cannot qualify as an expert. And neither does his service in the US Army.

In his bibliogrpahy he mentions Carell's 'Hitler Moves East' (completly outdated and unreliable) and two books by Franz Kurowski (400 books in app. 50 years, mostly popular 'Landser'-like books about WW2).

history1
Banned
Posts: 4095
Joined: 31 Oct 2005, 10:12
Location: Austria

Re: Document in the book "Where the iron crosses grow" R.Forczyk

#30

Post by history1 » 28 Jan 2015, 19:51

Rob - wssob2 wrote:[...] He has three academic degrees and is a twenty year veteran of the US Army.
[...] I think your questions are examples of intellectual laziness and a too quick eagerness to slag an author.
Robert Forczyk [...] He retired as a lieutenant colonel from the US Army Reserves having served 18 years as an armor officer in the US 2nd and 4th infantry divisions [...]
from http://www.randomhouse.com/highschool/c ... view=print
Seems you aren´t even aware of the discrepancy in your statement, rob?
BTW, I don´t care how many academic degrees someone has or if he served in the US army.
We know about US troops who frivolously murdered journalists in Iraq because they were not able or willed to correctly identifiy what they were holding in their hands. Being an american "war hero" like many consider Jim Gilliland because he killed enemies doesnt count as qualification. Sorry `ve to correct myself it´s a qualification for an army career in the US, nothing else.
I found numerous errors in books of the Auschwitz memorial too, though they are also considered experts.
Rob - wssob2 wrote: Frankly, this isnt the first time an author has been slagged on this forum for picayune issues in an attempt to discredit their Holocaust on Waffen-SS research.
Picayune issues? I doubt that pointing out the wrong caption and explanation about the "Judenakten" is picayune! More likely the behaviour of the author is arguable, calling someone in public "a holocaust denier" against better knowledge just because this person pointed out an error is considered a serious crime here, called defamation, punished with imprisonment for one year!

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”