How many times was the term Untermenschen "subhumans" used?

[Timmy]

How many times can you find the term used by the National Socialists either by people personally or said in propaganda?

Hitler using the word:

"Furthermore, the fact that a number of Communist ideologists believe it necessary to turn back the tide of history and, in doing so, make use of a subhumanity (Untermenschentum) which mistakes the concept of political freedom for the idea of allowing criminal instincts free rein will similarly cause us little concern."

"For the victory of Bolshevist subhumanity (Untermenschentum) in Spain could only too easily have swept over Europe. Hence, the hatred felt by those who regret that Europe did not go up in flames."

"ime meanwhile has proved what we National Socialists maintained for many years: it is truly a state in which the whole national intelligentsia has been slaughtered, and where only spiritless, forcibly proletarianized subhumans remain."

Source: Adolf Hitler Collection Of Speeches 1922 1945

"these sub-humans do not understand how the people stand at our side. In their mouse-holes, out of which they now want to come, of course they hear nothing of the cheering of the masses."

Source: Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany, Robert Gellately

Himmler using the word:

"Otherwise, this is one of the earliest warnings I've issued, take care that these sub-humans always look at you; they must always look their superior in the eye. It's like with animals."

"We want to show the English, the Americans, and the Russian sub-humans that we are tougher; that we, precisely we, the SS, will be those who stand forever."

Source: Posen Speech 1943

"As Reichsführer-SS and Chief of the German Police, however, I am responsible to see that such deeds find their just penalty. The community of the people demands the destruction of such parasites, regardless of whether, according to juristic considerations, a subjective guilt exists or not. I cannot accept that a Polish sub-human escapes their punishment through some legal regulation or other."

Source: Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany, Robert Gellately

"We shall take care that never again in Germany, the heart of Europe, will the Jewish-Bolshevistic revolution of subhumans be able to be kindled either from within or through emissaries from without."

Source: The SS as an Anti-Bolshevist Fighting Organization, 1936

"The parents of such children of good blood will be given the choice to either give away their child; they will then probably produce no more children so that the danger of this subhuman people of the East [Untermenschenvolk des Ostens] obtaining class of leaders which, since it would be equal to us, would also be dangerous for us, will disappear--or else the parents pledge themselves to go to Germany and to become loyal citizens there."

Source: Treatment of Alien Races in the East, 1940

Goebbels using the word:

"Bolshevism is the declaration of war by Jewish-led international subhumans against culture itself."

Source: Nuremberg rally 1935

"subhumans exist in every people as a leavening agent."

Source: World danger of Bolshevism, 1936

As well as all these the pamphlet "Der Untermensch" (The Subhuman) described Jews, Gypsies, blacks and non-whites as subhumans "Mulattos and Finn-Asian barbarians, Gipsy’s and black skin savages all make up this modern underworld of subhuman’s that is always headed by the appearance of the eternal Jew."

[Timmy]

Walther von Reichenau read an order to his troops that stated ""In this eastern theatre, the soldier is not only a man fighting in accordance with the rules of the art of war... For this reason the soldier must learn fully to appreciate the necessity for the severe but just retribution that must be meted out to the subhuman species of Jewry...".

Source: Secret Field Marshal v.Reichenau Order Concerning Conduct of Troops in the Eastern Territories, 10 October 1941

[Timmy]

From the July 1932 Reichstag election. The text translates as: “Over 300 National Socialists died for you — murdered by Marxist subhumanity!!! For work and food vote Adolf Hitler List 2.” The reference is to Nazis killed during the political battles on the streets and in political meetings. The Christian imagery is clear.

[Timmy]

Liberalism destroyed the people’s economic foundations, allowing the triumph of subhumans.

Marxism appeals to humanity’s basest drives; it is an appeal to subhumans."

SS booklet on racial policy

The fact that the Bolshevist war in Spain was a Jewish war was made evident in some striking events: Christian churches were set afire, priests murdered, and the bones of holy nuns were removed from their crypts and given over to the scorn of subhumans.

Bolshevism and Synagogue

With deviltry that could only come from criminal minds, they attempted to organize armed resistance by subhumans in Germany.

The Battle for Germany

Chapter 7: Germany is Ours

What do these subhumans know about the joy of a genuine national community?

The faces of the mob who carry this scarecrow through the streets of New York clearly reflect of the lowest characteristics of Jewish subhumanity.

How They Lie

Communist subhumans were to be the tools.

The Guilty

The gloried flags have been sent to New York, London, and Moscow, given over to the scorn of sub-humans.

Never!

The glorious flags have been sent to New York, London, and Moscow, there to be mocked by subhumans.

It is a matter of who shall live in Europe in the future: the white race with its cultural values and creativity, with its industry and joy in life, or Jewish subhumanity ruling over the stupid, joyless enslaved masses doomed to death.

War Aims of World Plutocracy

Additional basic themes:

The threat of subhumanity (including treatment of the book by Lothrop Stoddard, translated into German by Dr. Wilhelm Heise: Der Kulturumsturz — die Drohung des Untermenschen, J. F. Lehmann Verlag, Munich 1925).

“Die Republik der Gleichen,” (Gracchus Baboeuf) as the signal for subhumanity. — Jewry as the leader of the underworld (see especially Schwartz Bostunitsch: Jüdischer Imperialismus).

Zeitschriften-Dienst

Thus, organized subhumanity plays with the fate of peoples and states, with the fate of many hundreds of millions of people who wish only to live and work in peace.

While in Germany, the best of all nations strive in confident enthusiasm for the victor’s wreath, Jewish Bolshevism calls to subhumanity in Spain to take up the weapons of destruction against a peaceful people.

The Great Anti-Bolshevist Exhibition

Many a woman peered through Berlin’s dark streets, looking for her man or her son who was risking his blood and his life in the struggle against subhumanity.

We Women in the Struggle

for Germany’s Renewal

It will decide whether subhuman Bolshevism destroys all that which is noble and holy to Germans, or whether the German soldier and his brave allies will build the foundation of a new era of peace and freedom.

People in London and New York pray for these animals in human form, and thousands of Jewish editors, speakers, and radio announcers are at work recruiting American youth to shed their blood for these subhumans.

German Soldiers in the Soviet Union

Letters from the East

http://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/

[Timmy]

"It must be clear to everyone in Germany, down to the last milkmaid, that Polish is the same as subhuman. This message must constantly put over as a central theme, and appear in treatment of standard expressions such as "Polish mismanagement", "Polish depravity", and the like. This should continue until it is embedded in the subconscious of every German that all Poles, whether workers or intellectuals, must be treated like vermin."

24 October 1939 in his Instruction No. 1306 of the Reich Propaganda Ministry

"the idea that the political struggle against our opponents: Jewry, Bolshevism, Jewified world Freemasonry, and all the forces that do not want a new, revived Germany is over, is in my view a grave error, for Germany is right at the beginning of what may be a centuries-long struggle, perhaps the decisive world struggle with these forces of organized subhumanity."

Himmler speech 5 March 1936 at the Prussian State Council

the 'many little subhumans in our service' were 'attached to their master with doglike devotion [...] because he was decent to them."

Himmler speech May 1944

an Atilla was born in this seething mass of millions of subhumans, in the same way suddenly in some couple of two people the spark can be ignited by means of which an Atilla, a Genghis Khan, a Tamberlaine, a Stalin can emerge from lost traces of Nordic-Germanic-Aryan blood that is floating in this mass and which alone can give rise to powers of leadership and organization.

Himmler speech 16 September 1941 in Ukraine

We are a country in the heart of Europe surrounded by open borders, surrounded by a world that is becoming more and more Bolshevized, and increasingly taken over by the Jew in his worst form, name the tyranny of a totally destructive Bolshevism. To believe that this development is going to come to an end in a year's time, or in several years or even in decades, is culpably reckless and erroneous. We must assume that this struggle will last for generations, for it's the age-old struggle between humans and subhumans in its current new phase of the struggle between the Aryan peoples and Jewry and the organizational form of Jewry has adopted of Bolshevism. I see my task as being to prepare the whole nation for this struggle by buiilding up the police welded together with the order of the SS as the organization to protect the Reich at home just as the Wehrmacht provides protection against threats from abroad.

Himmler speaking when becoming Chief of the German Police on 18 June 1936

Subhumans threaten the health and life of the national body in two respects: as criminals they damage and undermine the community and they also act as tools and weapons for the plans of those powers hostile to the nation, international, ideological, and intellectual opponents' utilized subhumanity, which is invariably bent on subversion and disorder, but also the supporters of their own political and ideological organizations, in other words, Jewry, Freemasonry, and the politicized churches. Moreover, they utilize all those other groups in the German nation who, whether consciously or having been misled, support special interests that are determined to the German people (Legitimists, etc.).

Heydrich speech regarding criminals

From Heinrich Himmler: A Life, Peter Longerich

typical representatives of the sub-humans.

primarily by asocial elements and those organized sub-human types who had been in the earlier Bolshevik groups.

Himmler speaking about criminals in the camps

From Backing Hitler: Consent and Coercion in Nazi Germany, Robert Gellately

Der Untermensch war zum Bürger ernannt worden!

The 'subhuman' was appointed citizens!

Appeared in a pamphlet after Germans found out that East Workers were receiving better treatment.

From Alexander Dallin, Deutsche Herrschaft in Russland 1941–1945. Eine Studie über Besatzungspolitik

[Timmy]

We must clearly realize, that Bolshevism is the organization of the subhumans, it is the absolute foundation of Jewish sovereignty, it is the exact contrary of all that is dear to an Aryan people. It is a diabolical teaching, for it appeals to the meanest and lowest instincts of mankind and makes a religion of this. Do not be deceived: Bolshevism, with its Lenin entombed in the Kremlin, will take only a few decades to become the diabolical religion of destruction, a religion native to Asia for the destruction of the whole world. Furthermore, remember that this Bolshevism is working according to plan for the Bolshevization of other peoples, and the destruction is aimed at the white race.

Himmler speaking at the Organization and Obligations of the SS and the Police, 1937

"We have large collections of skulls of almost all races and peoples at our disposal. Of the Jewish race, however, only very few specimens of skulls are available, with the result that it is impossible to arrive at precise conclusions from examination. The war in the East now presents us with the opportunity to overcome this deficiency. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish-Bolshevik commissars, who represent the prototype of the repulsive, but characteristic, subhuman, we have the chance now to obtain scientific material.

Ahnenerbe testimony of Wolfram Sievers

"The subhuman, this apparently fully equal creation of nature, when seen from a biological viewpoint with hands, feet, and a sort of brain, with eyes and a mouth, nevertheless is quite different, a dreadful creature, is only an imitation of man with man-resembling features, but inferior to any animal as regards intellect and soul. In its interior, this being is a cruel chaos of wild, unrestricted passions with a nameless will to destruction, with a most primitive lust, and of unmasked depravity * * *. Now here they come again, the Huns, caricatures of human faces, nightmares that have come true, a blow in the face of everything good, allied with jungle nature and the scum of the whole world, but the suitable tools in the hand of the wandering Jew, that master of organized mass murder. Only for the dumb are they camouflaged in the dress of the bourgeois * * *. This time the Jew wanted to be fully certain. He appointed himself as officer, as commissar, as decisive leader of the subhumans * * *. The beasts in human form, the true leaders of the underworld, sowed by Ahasuerus who originates from the dark, stinking ghettos of eastern cities."

Der Untermensch, 1942

"By procuring the skulls of the Jewish Bolshevik Commissars, who personify a repulsive, yet characteristic subhumanity, we have the opportunity of obtaining tangible scientific evidence. The actual obtaining and collecting of these skulls without difficulty could be best accomplished by a directive issued to the Wehrmacht in the future to immediately turn over alive all Jewish Bolshevik Commissars to the field police."

There exist extensive collections of skulls of almost all races and peoples. Of the Jewish race, however, only so very few specimens of skulls are at the disposal of science that a study of them does not permit precise conclusions. The war in the East now presents us with the opportunity to remedy this shortage. By procuring the skulls of the Jewish-Bolshevik Commissars, who personify a repulsive yet characteristic subhumanity, we have the opportunity of obtaining tangible scientific evidence.

Document NO-085, Prosecution Exhibit 175 regarding the collection of Jewish skeletons has been submitted to me. With the exception of the last paragraph which begins with the words "For the preservation * * *", the report was — as far as I remember — drafted by Dr. Bruno Beger who had come from the SS Race and Settlement Main Office (RuSHA). * I first saw the report in the autumn of 1941. The report had already been circulated in all possible offices and one copy had also been sent to the Ahnenerbe. The reason why the report had also been sent to the Ahnenerbe are unknown to me; in any case, Sievers showed me this proposal with all signs of horror and defined it as a hybrid outgrowth of the propaganda which at that time used to describe the eastern nations as "subhuman." The report itself was filed away, as it did not concern us, or passed on to the chief of the Ahnenerbe, Professor Wuest, as it was really a "scientific" matter. One day Sievers told me that Himmler had mentioned this matter in a private conversation — I believe it was in connection with Professor Hirt — and ordered the document to be submitted after obtaining an opinion from Professor Hirt. Hirt then added the last paragraph. With this addition the report was forwarded to the personal staff of the Reich Leader SS and to Dr. Rudolf Brandt.

The skeleton collection of Dr. Hirt

[Timmy]

It impossible to win someone over to a new idea while insulting his inner sense of worth at the same time. One cannot expect the highest level of performance from people who are called beasts, barbarians, and subhuman. Instead, positive qualities such as the will to fight Bolshevism, the desire to safeguard one’s own existence and that of one’s country, commitment and willingness to work are to be encouraged and promoted.

Martin Bormann’s Circular of May 5, 1943, which included a Memorandum on the General Principles Governing the Treatment of Foreign Laborers Employed in the Reich (dated April 15, 1943)

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc ... ge_id=2943

[Timmy]

Time meanwhile has proved what we National Socialists maintained for many years: it is truly a state in which the whole national intelligentsia has been slaughtered, and where only spiritless, forcibly proletarianized subhumans remain. Above them, there is the gigantic organization of the Jewish commissars, that is, established slaveowners. Frequently people wondered whether, in the long run, nationalist tendencies would not be victorious there.

Hitler's speech 8 November 1941 at the Löwenbräukeller

[Timmy]

The man who is more predisposed to the subhuman will be more inclined to experience the subhuman aspects of war; the man who is capable of reaching superhuman heights will achieve the superhuman in war.

Kleo Pleyer speech Volk in the Field

This extirpation of entire lineages, including women and children, can be committed only by a subhuman breed of humans.

Majoe General Hellmuth Stieff's letter from Poland

For then the subhumans would have their NCO's and commanding officers, they would have their workers' and soldiers' councils.

Walter Gross pamphlet Racial Political Prerequisites for the Solution of the Jewish Problem

These can be found in the Third Reich Sourcebook by Anson Rabinbach, Sander L. Gilman. There is other mentions of subhuman, subhumans and subhumanity in the book but only above are the ones available in preview via Google books.

[Stephen.W]

It's often said in books that Nazi propaganda and Hitler viewed the Poles, Ukrainians and Russians and other Slavs as subhumans yet I can't find anywhere he ever called them as such. I'm not challenging that he did not view them as inferior because there is overwhelming evidence Hitler thought of the Slavs as both culturally and racially inferior but I've yet to find one single document or speech where he called them subhumans.

Where did Hitler call Slavs as subhumans? I know he called them an inferior race, mixed with Asiatics and Russia as a Mongolian state but nowhere have I ever found him call them as "Untermenschen".

The brochure published in 1942 Der Untermensch although the text of it does not contain "Slav" "Slavs" or "Slavic" it does say:

On the infinite a steppes of Russian territory lay Eastern Europe. A sharp contrast is noticed when comparing central Europe with this enormous space. On both sides of the border is the same earth but not the same man.

It is the man who makes his mark on the landscape, while on the German side is planned orderly fields yielding abundant harvests; the other side is only impenetrable forests, vast and unkempt, miles of uninhabited steppes where even the rivers wind endlessly through the nothingness.

This poorly kept land which hides fertile soil could be a paradise for man, a potential "California of Europe" alive with fields and fruit, but instead it lies neglected and wasted, lost to the abyss of cultural nihilism.

This land cries out against the subhuman and his wasteful ways! This fertile black earth watered by burning tears, is only barely separated from the rest of Europe. However its Eastern European masters have not risen above their primitive ways.

Himmler withdrew the brochure from being anymore published when Vlasov was setting up the Russian Liberation Army.

We have Himmler's secret memo where he said "Untermenschenvolk des Osten" or "subhuman people of the East", but that was said in a private document between Himmler and Hitler not in public.

Is there any pamphlets or speeches where Slavs were called subhumans publicly?

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Stephen,

You may be right, but first, if, indeed, "it is often said", perhaps you could give a few examples?

It is also worth pointing out that Himmler was a trusted subordinate and close confidante of Hitler for two decades. Hitler seems only to have distanced himself from Himmler in April 1945 over the latter's unilateral peace feelers to the Allies. I am unaware of Hitler repudiating anything else Himmler did. Are you?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Stephen.W]

Hi Stephen,

You may be right, but first, if, indeed, "it is often said", perhaps you could give a few examples?

Here are a few examples:

Hitler's contempt for Slavs as racially inferior subhumans gave him supreme optimism that Germany would ultimately triumph over the Soviet Union.

Hitler's Ethic, Richard Weikart, p.74

Hitler and Nazi racial theorists considered the Slavs as Untermenschen (subhumans).

A History of Nazi Germany: 1919-1945, Joseph W. Bendersky, p.177

virtually every young German was brought up through premilitary training to view Slavs and Jews as subhumans to be mercilessly killed, and this was one thing that propelled them at the fronts.

Hitler Youth, Michael H. KATER, Michael H Kater, p.170

Yet it may be an overstatement to claim that the only "non-Aryan" was a Jew, if one considers the cruel treatment meted out to Poles, Gypsies, Russians and others because of their supposedly "non-Aryan" and subhuman status in Hitler's thought.

Hitler, Germans, and the "Jewish Question", Sarah Ann Gordon, p.103

Biology classes in Nazi Germany schools taught about differences between the race of Nordic German "Übermenschen" and "ignoble" Jewish and Slavic "subhumans"

Hitler Youth, 1922–1945: An Illustrated History by Jean-Denis Lepage, p.91

It is also worth pointing out that Himmler was a trusted subordinate and close confidante of Hitler for two decades. Hitler seems only to have distanced himself from Himmler in April 1945 over the latter's unilateral peace feelers to the Allies. I am unaware of Hitler repudiating anything else Himmler did. Are you?

Cheers,

Sid.

If we look at some of the quotes from above then we are faced with a few contradictions. I've yet to see any Nazi racial theorist which described the Slavs as subhumans, if anything, the racial theorists people that heavily influenced Nazism also described the Slavs as being Aryan and also originally Nordic. I've not seen any biological teaching about the Slavs being subhumans, as far as I know, the Slavs were also considered to be Aryan. I can't find Hitler calling the Poles, Russians or Slavs as a whole subhuman never mind non-Aryan.

I've read Hitler's Mein Kampf, Second Book and the Table Talks and I can't find anywhere where the term "Untermensch" is applied to Jews, never mind Slavs.

Hitler did view the Slavs as an inferior race, he said this in Mein Kampf, but I can't find him calling them subhumans.

I'm not aware of any Nazi propaganda which specifically called the Slavs as subhumans besides the Der Untermensch pamphlet (which does not actually contain the words "Slav" "Slavs" or "Slavic" but speaks of Eastern Europe and their masters as such which does demonstrate they are speaking about the Slavs there), a private memo and a couple of speeches to small groups by Himmler.

There is plenty of material which show Marxists, Bolsheviks, Communists, Jews and Marxists were described as Untermenschen publicly in brochures, movies, etc but this doesn't seem to be the case for Slavs.

[Sid Guttridge]

A very good reply that addressed all my points.

I shall follow your thread with interest.

Cheers,

Sid.

[Stephen.W]

A very good reply that addressed all my points.

I shall follow your thread with interest.

Cheers,

Sid.

Thank you for replying to me first of all.

It would be absolutely ridiculous to say that Hitler and the Nazis viewed the Germans and the Slavs as the same. There is plenty of statements where the latter is called racially inferior. Pretty much all prominent Nazis held an anti-Slav view to some degree or another whether it be Hitler, Himmler, Koch, Heydrich, etc. But this was not a Nazi invention, anti-Slavism has been quite traditional in German nationalism.

I want to pay particular attention to also the people who claim Slavs were "non-Aryan" like the above, this is a complete lie and Nazi documents prove this. We must not forget that timing is important when we look at what they thought of specific Slavic ethnic groups such as the Poles or Russians regarding inferiority.

Lets look at some of the things said by the Nazis, Hitler addressed the Reichstag in 1935 he said about Poland and the Poles: "We recognize, with the understanding and the heartfelt friendship of true Nationalists, the Polish State as the home of a great, nationally-conscious people." We see in the same year the Nuremberg Laws were passed and it was the Poles and Danes who were used as ethnic minorities living in Germany who were "related blood" and Reich citizenship was open to them. We see on the Ahnenpass which every German had to have in order to be a Reich Citizen also use the Poles as examples of Aryans. Himmler in his early years thought of settling in the east and he also began to learn Russian. Goebbels had an affair with a Czech (who were also used as examples of Aryans in the Ahnenpass). Himmler called the Russians Aryan in the pamphlet The Schutzstaffel organization as anti-Bolshevik struggle. Even during the war, despite them still being enemies were still kept under the "Aryan" areas outside of the ghettos where Jews, Gypsies and others had to stay. Many Jews even tried to pretend to be Poles (Aryans) to avoid less persecution. Hans F. K. Günther who heavily influenced the Nazis racial totally dismissed ideas of terms like "Germanic" or "Slavic" to be races. Other racial theorists also stated racially speaking all European peoples were equal.

Most of the anti-Slavic statements were made against the Czechs, Poles and Russians rather than the alliances like Croatia.

With regards to race and the mixing between Germans and Slavs there seems to be plenty of contradictions. The Nazis banned Germans after the war started from having any relations with foreign workers, especially from Eastern Europe. The regulations issued against the Poles and Eastern Workers stated any who would had sexual relations with a German would be hanged, thousands of Polish (unless deemed to be capable of Germanization) and Russian men were executed for racial defilement during the war. But this was just applied to workers, there was no actual prohibition on sexual relations or marriages between Germans and Poles or other Eastern Europeans since they were 'related blood'.

If we look at the race laws text, the Nuremberg Laws did not forbid sexual relations or marriage between Germans and Slavs and used Poles and Czechs as examples of potential partners who were of 'related blood'.

What is extremely interesting is Hitler's thoughts on racial mixing between Germans and Slavs and Germanization in his Table Talks:

"Really creative music is composed partly of inspiration and partly of a sense of composition. The inspiration is of Slavonic origin, the art of composition is of Germanic. It is when these two mingle in one man that the master of genius appears."

"My one fear is that the Ministry for Eastern Territories [aka Alfred Rosenberg] will try to civilize the Ukrainian women. These girls, bursting with health, would introduce a welcome strain into the race, for many of them are obviously of sound Germanic origin--otherwise, whence the fair, blue-eyed children? The best among them we will gradually assimilate and take into the Reich; the rest can remain here."

"It is not possible to generalize on the extent to which the Slav races are susceptible to the Germanic imprint... For example, to label the Bulgarians as Slavs is pure nonsense; originally they were Turkomans. The same applies to the Czechs. It is enough for a Czech to grow a moustache for anyone to see, from the way the thing droops, that his origin is Mongolian. Among the so-called Slavs of the South the Dinars are predominant..."

With regards to the Slavs being described as subhumans, I've never seen it in public propaganda like they did with Jews.

The discrimination against the Slavs was because of political reasons more than racial reasons. John Connelly based on his research "Nazis and Slavs" says the only reason the Nazis treat the Poles badly was because they rejected an alliance. It had nothing to do with Poles being thought of as racially less than Germans. Nazi racism was not always based on science.

Martin Bormann did say about foreign workers in 1943:

"It impossible to win someone over to a new idea while insulting his inner sense of worth at the same time. One cannot expect the highest level of performance from people who are called beasts, barbarians, and subhuman. Instead, positive qualities such as the will to fight Bolshevism, the desire to safeguard one’s own existence and that of one’s country, commitment and willingness to work are to be encouraged and promoted."

I'm unaware of any document or speech where Hitler called the Slavs as subhumans or where there were biological teachings focusing on separating Germans and Jews or where they were called subhumans publicly. Perhaps somebody on here can prove otherwise.

[Max]

Wiki on the meaning of Untermensch/ Subhuman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untermensch

This exact topic has be slugged out on Stormfront [twice ] with occasional links back to this forum.

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t10336 ... 4b000b38bc
https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t10336 ... 4b000b38bc

I suspect that the main mover of the argument at Stormfront, having exhausted everyone there, has moved over to here.