The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#46

Post by wm » 01 Sep 2015, 15:43

Skyderick wrote:
wm wrote:is this some kind of an auction?
The text is too blurred to read, but the title seems to be Sefirat HaOmer (ספירת העמר).
So it is an Omer-counter? They sell them?
The rug? underneath is quite worn out:
the thing.jpg

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#47

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Sep 2015, 18:55

4thskorpion wrote:From the above [on Jews in Poland]:

"...Many of them are wealthy and educated; but the great majority are poor, ignorant, and vicious, wandering about the villages and towns, intent on gain; monopolizing every petty traffic, descending to the most menial service for a penny; and not unfrequently increasing their unhallowed wealth by the licentiousness of their wives and daughters".

Really??

WM, the tracts of text that make up the subject of this thread are smattered throughout with overtly anti-Semitic rhetoric and seem to have little to do with the Holocaust & 20th Century War crimes? Or, is the intention for their inclusion to somehow portray these poor, ignorant and vicious wandering Polish Jews only intent on personal gain and monopolising every petty traffic, were low-life "outsiders" and thus became victims of the Holocaust because of it? Or is the intention to show how Nazi German and Polish nationalist propaganda used the same anti-Semitic language and themes in their campaigns against the Jews?
4thskorpion,

Jews in Poland were indeed a group of large social contrasts, as the quotation posted above says.

There was both a large group of rich Jews (compared to Non-Jews) and a large Jewish underclass (compared to Non-Jewish).

In 1921 Jews (believers of Judaism) were 10.5% of the population, but as many as 22.2% of all unemployed people, 18% of all employed people who did not reveal in the census what was their exact occupation, just 0.9% of people employed in agriculture, 23.5% of people employed in industry and mining, 73.8% of all people employed in commodity trade, 13.8% of employed in currency trade, 81.4% of employed in factoring.

In 1931 Jews (believers of Judaism) were 9,8% of the population (a decrease compared to 1921), but 27.3% of urban population and 3.2% of rural population, 21% of people employed in industry and mining, 59% of employed in commodity trade (a large decrease compared to 1921), 1% of employed in agriculture, 12% of employed in communication, finally 12% of employed in various other occupations.

High Jewish unemployement (in 1921 they were 10.5% of the population but as many as 22.2% of the unemployed population) resulted from the abnormal and highly monolithic character of their occupation profile - most of them were employed in commodity trade, usually those were small-scale traders. They were reluctant to move on to other occupations, and there was simply not enough room for so many traders.

They also faced increasing competition from Christian traders, who were supported by Christian population (i.e. "Christians buy from Christians"). And instead of changing their employment profile due to that competition, many Jews continued to do what they did, and slided into poverty. There emerged a large Jewish working class (industrial and mining workers) - still not as large as Christian, though.

In the USA, where % of Jews among population was much smaller, there was enough room for "traditional Jewish occupations". In Poland there was no room for "traditional Jewish occupations", as Jews were a very large % of the population. It was only in Palestine (and later in the state of Israel), where Jews finally realized, that they needed to start working as farmers and industrial workers as well. And indeed, Jewish colonists who moved to Palestine, learned how to farm, and started to diversify their occupational profiles. As the result, they could build a normally functioning state - Israel - where Jewish people are employed in various types of occupations - unlike in the past in Europe.

Back to pre-war Poland:

Jews were - on average - better educated than Christians, but reasons for that were: 1) that most of Jews lived in urban areas and 2) that there was poor education of Christians who lived in the countryside (especially Orthodox and Greek Catholic Christians). By contrast, if we take into consideration just urban population, then urban Christians were actually better educated than urban Jews (source in the link below):

http://www.stanford.edu/~ranabr/Abramit ... aburda.pdf

From pages 4 to 6 of the paper in the link posted above:

"(...) Since during both censuses about 3/4 of Jews resided in urban areas and 3/4 of the total population lived in rural areas, a general comparison without distinction into urban and rural areas compares mostly urban Jews to mostly rural non-Jews. Population in urban areas was signicantly more literate than that in rural areas, for both the Jewish minority and the non-Jewish population. Urban Jews - even though less literate than urban non-Jews - are still more literate than rural non-Jews. Thus, in the aggregate statistics, Jews are more literate than non-Jews. (...)"

And:

"(...) Jews attained higher levels of education than non-Jews, but lower levels in urban areas (...)"

Now some pieces of data from year 1921:

Group - active in the workforce / economically inactive population

Jews - 33.9% / 66.1%

Roman Catholics - 54.4% / 45.6%
Protestants - 53.2% / 46.8%
Greek Catholics - 63.9% / 36.1%
Orthodox people - 62.5% / 37.5%
others - 57.4% / 42.6%

Christians in total - 56.5% / 43.5%

S. Pawlowski in "On Emigration of Jews from Poland" commented that in the following way:

"(...) Number of Jews active in the workforce is in general two times lower than number of Jews economically inactive, especially in trade and isurances it is almost three times lower. (...) Such a situation was in 1921, while nowadays [1937] it must be even worse. There is no doubt that the percent of economically inactive Jews is rather increasing than decreasing. (...) Out of all Jews only 1/3 make a living, while among Non-Jews 5/9. (...) Under these conditions pauperization among Jews is progressing fast, and is becoming one of main reasons of their emigration. Jews, locking and limiting themselves to just a few occupations, are losing with each day job opportunities and opportunities to make a living. (...)"

=======================

While of those in "trade and insurances" sector (in 1921):

Group - active in the workforce / economically inactive population

Jews - 324,615 (28.6%) / 812,316 (71.4%)
Roman Catholics - 169,026 (40.6%) / 246,877 (59.4%)
Protestants - 15,309 / 21,140
Greek Catholics - 4,861 / 5,803
Orthodox people - 4,000 / 5,534
others - 955 / 1,146

=======================

Among Pawlowski's conclusions about Jewish well-being and rates of Jewish emigration, was:

"(...)

c) The greater the percent of Jews among the total population in a given country, the higher is their emigration rate. Because with the increase of the number of Jews in a given territory compared to its total population, economical power of Jews in this territory is decreasing and their pauperization starts. Moreover, in such a country Jews are creating strong competition against themselves, which is understandable due to the monolithic nature of their occupational profile. (...) For this reason, even Jews themselves admit, that emigration of some part of Jewish people from a given country is improving the economical situation of the remaining Jews in that country.

(...)

h) Jewish migrations generally do not meet any obstacles in countries from which Jews emigrate, but do encounter serious problems in countries to which they want to immigrate. Some countries try to totally prevent Jewish immigration, or to limit its scale.

i) Even though Jewish emigrants are citizens of various states, Jewish emigration nevertheless has a national character. Jews are trying to establish main lines of emigration for their population, and are trying to organize it, or at least to support it. In this respect Jews surpass many nations, and even states. Jews have created international emigration-colonial organizations, with very strong capitals.

These organizations include:

1. ICA or PICA - Palestine Yewish Colonisation Association - its creation was possible thanks to capital of Baron Hirsch
2. OZET - Colonisation Association for Agricultural Jews
3. AGROJOINT - association created by American Jews, by so called Joint Distribution Comittee
4. KOMZET - committee for Jewish agricultural settlement in the Soviet Union
5. ORT - association for supporting Jewish colonization in Ukraine
6. IKOR - communist organization in the Soviet Union, supporting Jewish emigration and colonization
7. PROCER - emigration organization in Buenos Aires
8. HIAS - Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society of America

They are joined by many banks and special funds, including Keren Hajessot and Keren Kayemet (...) as well as associations such as Hilfsverein der deutschen Juden in Berlin, Wiener Alliance Israelite, EZRA, and others.

(...)

m) Wherever Jews plan to settle for good [i.e. Palestine], they switch from trading, crafts and industrial activities to agricultural activities. They buy the land and settle there as colonists. However, they are encountering many difficulties during this process, because - owing to their monolithic occupational structure - Jews have no skilled farmers. Moreover, Jews are a mostly urban society and they live in large groups in cities and towns, rarely in large villages. (...) A Jew as an individual colonist is a rare case.

(...)"


As for preventing Jewish immigration by various countries, indeed - after 1918 the United States of America passed laws on immigration quotas limiting the influx of Jews, as well as other Eastern European and Southern European immigrants.
Last edited by Piotr Kapuscinski on 01 Sep 2015, 22:06, edited 1 time in total.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.


User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#48

Post by 4thskorpion » 01 Sep 2015, 20:17

That is all good stuff Peter, but it doesn't answer the question (as per your quote of my post) which I put to wm on the relevance of this thread to the Holocaust & War Crimes unless it was because the social status of unregenerated Jews in Poland somehow led to their extermination in the Jewish Holocaust . I.e. they were the authors of their own fate by being unregenerated Jews.

User avatar
Skyderick
Member
Posts: 165
Joined: 11 Apr 2014, 13:59

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#49

Post by Skyderick » 01 Sep 2015, 20:24

wm wrote:
Skyderick wrote:
wm wrote:is this some kind of an auction?
The text is too blurred to read, but the title seems to be Sefirat HaOmer (ספירת העמר).
So it is an Omer-counter? They sell them?
The rug? underneath is quite worn out:
the thing.jpg
Sefirat HaOmer is the counting of 49 days between Passover and the Feast of Weeks. The object appears to be a decorative plate. The worn out "rug" is a cloth covering the cantor's podium. The picture shows the interior of a synagogue, over the bimah, during the counting of the Omer. At least as far as I can tell.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#50

Post by wm » 01 Sep 2015, 20:37

Peter K wrote:High Jewish unemployement (in 1921 they were 10.5% of the population but as many as 22.2% of the unemployed population) resulted from the abnormal and highly monolithic character of their occupation profile - most of them were employed in commodity trade, usually those were small-scale traders. They were reluctant to move on to other occupations, and there was simply not enough room for so many traders.

They also faced increasing competition from Christian traders, who were supported by Christian population (i.e. "Christians buy from Christians"). And instead of changing their employment profile due to that competition, many Jews continued to do what they did, and slided into poverty. There emerged a large Jewish working class (industrial and mining workers) - still not as large as Christian, though.
Unfortunately I can't agree with this. Their occupation profile wasn't really a problem. In the thirties the entire country slid into poverty, despite different occupation profiles of the other groups.
Reskilling wouldn't help, there was no place to go and start a new life.
But Jewish emigration, large or small wasn't the answer either. Emigration was exacerbating economic problems because of capital flight, and loss of valuable labor/intellectual assets.
In this circumstances only a sustained economic development could be the answer.
And actually this type of analyses were published in mainstream Polish press at that time. It is not just 20/20 hindsight.

Paradoxically it could be argued that from the economic point of view a jobless Jew was more valuable than a working one - because of the millions of dollars his American brethren were sending every year in support. The Polish economy needed them badly.

Piotr Kapuscinski
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 3724
Joined: 12 Jul 2006, 20:17
Location: Poland
Contact:

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#51

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Sep 2015, 21:30

wm wrote:In the thirties the entire country slid into poverty
But already in 1921 Jewish unemployment rate was much higher than that among Non-Jews (see above).

So what does it have to do with the Great Depression ???
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#52

Post by wm » 01 Sep 2015, 22:11

Well, thinking about it - nothing.
But how do we know those numbers, and that there was no similar structural unemployment among the Poles?
I'm asking because, I think I've read somewhere unemployment statistics didn't exist then.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#53

Post by wm » 01 Sep 2015, 22:26

Skyderick wrote:Sefirat HaOmer is the counting of 49 days between Passover and the Feast of Weeks. The object appears to be a decorative plate. The worn out "rug" is a cloth covering the cantor's podium. The picture shows the interior of a synagogue, over the bimah, during the counting of the Omer. At least as far as I can tell.
Thank you. I can't believe I was so blind, I thought they were outside. The caption is mere Jews doing something.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#54

Post by michael mills » 02 Sep 2015, 00:07

In this circumstances only a sustained economic development could be the answer.
And actually this type of analyses were published in mainstream Polish press at that time. It is not just 20/20 hindsight.
Buell made precisely that point in his 1939 book "Poland, Key to Europe".

Unfortunately, in the 1930s such sustained economic development was not possible in Poland due to the Depression, from which even the United States could not recover until it entered the war at the end of 1941.

michael mills
Member
Posts: 8999
Joined: 11 Mar 2002, 13:42
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#55

Post by michael mills » 02 Sep 2015, 00:27

That is all good stuff Peter, but it doesn't answer the question (as per your quote of my post) which I put to wm on the relevance of this thread to the Holocaust & War Crimes unless it was because the social status of unregenerated Jews in Poland somehow led to their extermination in the Jewish Holocaust . I.e. they were the authors of their own fate by being unregenerated Jews.
There was a relationship between the existence of a large indigent Jewish population in Eastern Europe and the wartime Judeocide, although it was not a direct causal one.

As Gerald Reitlinger pointed out in his 1954 work "The Final Solution", the first comprehensive study in English of the Judeocide, it was the most traditionalist part of European Jewry that was most savagely exterminated, and the more modernised and assimilated part that was most likely to survive.

The fact is that there is a general human tendency to regard poor, backward and uneducated people, the under class, as less worthy of survival than wealthier and more productive people.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23722
Joined: 20 Jul 2002, 20:52
Location: USA

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#56

Post by David Thompson » 02 Sep 2015, 05:27

An off-topic post from Michael Mills on American support for indigent Jews in Poland was removed pursuant to the numerous thread warnings already posted on topicality.

Michael -- You wrote:
The fact is that there is a general human tendency to regard poor, backward and uneducated people, the under class, as less worthy of survival than wealthier and more productive people.
Wealthier people aren't necessarily more productive; they may merely be thieves. As for the "poor, backward and uneducated people, the under class" -- they are certainly easier to oppress than the others.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#57

Post by wm » 02 Sep 2015, 12:12

Heard on TED: the main moral difference between educated and uneducated, sophisticated and unsophisticated is, the former can hide their thoughts and desires better.
michael mills wrote:
As Gerald Reitlinger pointed out in his 1954 work "The Final Solution", the first comprehensive study in English of the Judeocide, it was the most traditionalist part of European Jewry that was most savagely exterminated, and the more modernised and assimilated part that was most likely to survive.
Thinking about it there is no good, civilized way to be exterminated.
A con argument could be as follows: the numerous criminals that killed or made survival impossible, like those extortionists around the Warsaw Ghetto, preferred the modernized and presumably wealthy victims than the others, presumably poor.
michael mills wrote:Unfortunately, in the 1930s such sustained economic development was not possible in Poland due to the Depression, from which even the United States could not recover until it entered the war at the end of 1941.
A huge financial burden was the arms race with the neighbors, up to 30% maybe 40% of the national budget. In Poland the recovery started in 1935-1936, with less military spending it would be much easier.
Last edited by wm on 02 Sep 2015, 12:45, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#58

Post by 4thskorpion » 02 Sep 2015, 12:32

Intermarium: The Land Between the Black and Baltic Seas By Marek Jan Chodakiewicz
Intermarium_page138.png
Intermarium: Page138.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#59

Post by wm » 02 Sep 2015, 12:52

The extraordinary terror against the Jews was mitigated by policy consideration too, especially by the constant demands for manpower.
The claim that the exigencies of the Nazi battle for victory were overridden is an old myth.
Actually Holocaust was beneficial to the Nazi economy and would have contributed to the victory, except there was no victory.

User avatar
4thskorpion
Member
Posts: 733
Joined: 10 Nov 2009, 16:06
Location: United Kingdom

Re: The Unregenerated Jews of Poland

#60

Post by 4thskorpion » 02 Sep 2015, 18:41

wm wrote:The extraordinary terror against the Jews was mitigated by policy consideration too, especially by the constant demands for manpower.
The claim that the exigencies of the Nazi battle for victory were overridden is an old myth.
Actually Holocaust was beneficial to the Nazi economy and would have contributed to the victory, except there was no victory.
wm, I am sure you think you know more about the subject than historian dr. Marek Jan Chodakiewicz and can list your academic credentials and your papers/publications on the subject so we can judge on what basis you can make such statements?

Post Reply

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”