The Morgenthau plan

sandeepmukherjee196 · #16

Hi Marcus...

Seeking your indulgence please. I have no intention to drag you into a controversy. I am just trying to take this thing to a logical conclusion as a study in History.

The following line from your post appears to suggest that at the highest level of Government, the US had bought into the Morgenthau Plan :

" The President adopted the scheme enthusiastically and asked Morgenthau to present it at the second Quebec Conference in September 1944 ..."

I had written :
" Churchill was brought around by turning the screws on him regarding post war financial assistance".

The following line from your post seems to bear that out pl :

" Though Churchill later said he disliked it, he wanted Morgenthau's agrement for further financial credit, and both he and Roosevelt initialled it."

My clarification about this plan feeding german propaganda , as under :

" Goebbels used the spectre of the Morgenthau plan to harden the resolution and desperation of Germans to resist. Just like he used the Russian atrocities in the East to drum up fear driven motivation."

This seems to be supported by the following line from your post :

" When the plan was revealed in the American press it was seized upon by German propaganda as evidence of what unconditional surrender meant, and may have contributed to bolstering German resistance during the last months of the war."

I would again repeat that my intention is to take this thread to its logical conclusion through an exchange of information and analyses...thats all please.

I hold no brief for the Institute from whose site I sourced Prof Kubek's article... I dont think that the political views of the Institute should dilute the veracity of what Prof Kubic writes... They didn't mandate this article or influence his work in any way. He was a prominent scholar in his own right.
Think tanks on the Right or Left end of the political spectrum often use the learned works of economists like Adam Smith, Lord Keynes, Jagdish Bhagwati et al.. that doesn't mean that these scholars get sullied because of who is quoting them !

Thanks

Sandeep

David Thompson · #17

sandeepmukherjee196 -- You wrote:

The Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime.

I responded:

Prove it. What is the document adopting Mr. Morgenthau's proposals as "THE official policy"?

You replied, without responding to the "prove it" challenge: (1)

I would like to know from you, as a Forum Staff, what exactly have I done to merit your post, as above please?

I have posted a document written by a scholar who was a consultant to the US Senate Internal Security Sub Committe.

Yes, but since the document doesn't establish your factual claim that "the Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime," so what?

(3)

You have quoted one sentence from my post in isolation please.

Indeed I did. The idea was to draw your specific attention to your unproven factual claim.

(4)

One can still dispute whatever he says. However does quoting him construe an infringement of the rules of AHF? If it does, I would like to be specifically apprised of the same please.

Quoting does not generally violate the rules of the forum. However, your question about quoting avoids the issue here. My post asked for proof of your statement: "The Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime." Neither your post nor your quote provide it.

(5)

The contents and intent of the JCS 1067 amply demonstrate that the spirit of the Morgenthau plan was captured and sought to be palmed off under a different name since the original had run up against resistance. This is what I said in my post and this is what I am repeating here.

What you said in your original post was "The Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime," not that that "the spirit of the Morgenthau plan was captured and sought to be palmed off. . . ." The "spirit of the Morgenthau plan" is not the same thing as the "plan" itself. As for the differences between the "Morgenthau Plan," and JCS 1067, you and the other readers can see by them by comparing the two:

"Morgenthau Plan"
original
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/b ... 97a01.html
text
http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/psf/b ... 97a01.html

JCS 1067
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 37#p186737

Note also that the first paragraph of JCS 1067 contains this disclaimer:

1. The Purpose and Scope of this Directive: . . . . This directive sets forth policies relating to Germany in the initial post-defeat period. As such it is not intended to be an ultimate statement of policies of this Government concerning the treatment of Germany in the post-war world.

(emphasis added).

Marcus · #18

sandeepmukherjee196 wrote: from your post

Please read my post, it is a quote posted by other member, not my own text. Please do not mix up those.

/Marcus

sandeepmukherjee196 · #19

Hi everyone....

There have been questions raised on "single sourcing" and the quality of the source used, implying extreme right wing, revisionist slant et al. So I am quoting below from the :

Holocaust Encyclopedia, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Henry Morgenthau ( http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007408 )

" .....During the same year, Morgenthau devised a plan for the occupation of Germany, known as the Morgenthau Plan. It advocated harsh measures to ensure Germany could not go to war again. According to the plan, Germany was to be partitioned into two states, its industry internationalized or annexed by neighboring countries, and its heavy industry dismantled. Although Roosevelt and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill signed a modified version of the plan in September 1944 at the Second Quebec Conference, the victorious Allies never fully implemented it. US Secretary of State Cordell Hull and US Secretary of War Henry Stimson firmly opposed the policy as did British Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden. Moreover, in the first postwar years, the Truman administration's concern about the developing “Cold War” and the need to strengthen the western zones of occupied Germany reinforced opposition to implementation of the Morgenthau Plan.

Still, the western Allies implemented some of its suggestions. For instance, the Morgenthau Plan strongly influenced Joint Chiefs of Staff Directive (JCS 1067), issued on May 10, 1945. This Directive, which remained in force until July 1947, aimed at reducing overall German living standards in order to in order to prevent Germany's reemergence as an aggressive power. It prohibited assistance to the German agricultural sector, and banned the production of oil, rubber, merchant ships, and aircraft."

This I believe reinforces my point about the spirit of the Morgenthau Plan being slipped in through the Agency of the JCS 1067.

Ciao
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196 · #20

Hi Marcus..

Would go through those posts in detail and with time in hand for sure as suggested. I am sorry if I have made any mistake in mixing up your posts with any one else's..would double check please.

Thanks
Sandeep

Marcus · #21

You do not have to look far, the quote can be found at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1924801

/Marcus

sandeepmukherjee196 · #22

Hi David Thompson,

Your demand for proof / evidence/ sources/ quotes for my statement about the Morgenthau Plan is well appreciated and taken in the spirit it was conveyed by you. It is indeed essential for maintaining the intellectual rigour of this site.

My response to your post was on the basis of the Forum Rules that you posted following your brief statement about proof. To me it implied that I was in, or was on the verge of, some infringement against Forum rules as stated in the list provided by you. More so because two other members, prior to your post had just trashed the site I quoted from implying that the content too was rendered non grata.

Thanks for your reply to my post and queries.

Ciao
Sandeep

sandeepmukherjee196 · #23

Marcus Wendel wrote:You do not have to look far, the quote can be found at http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1#p1924801

/Marcus

Yes Marcus, you have indeed been quoting Gareth Collins in your post. I will go back to all the earlier discussions linked on this thread and read them. have already read some earlier in the evening pl.

Thanks
Sandeep

Rob - wssob2 · #24

Hi Sandeep

The Morgenthau Plan was THE official policy of the Roosevelt regime.

and

For instance, the Morgenthau Plan strongly influenced Joint Chiefs of Staff Directive (JCS 1067), issued on May 10, 1945

Please clarify for me if the underlined parts above are equivalent. David Thompson pointed out

The "spirit of the Morgenthau plan" is not the same thing as the "plan" itself.

and I was curious to see if you have swung around to his position.

Note also that your use of the word "regime" (as in Roosevelt regime) is technically incorrect, pejorative and intellectually lazy. Regime is a word typically used to describe a despotic, authortarian government, such as the Third Reich, while the USA was (and is) a free democracy.

A more accurate term to use would be Roosevelt administration.

Just keeping up with the intellectual rigor on the forum.

OpanaPointer · #25

"regime" implies an imperial status, and thus is a slur on Roosevelt. You'll see a lot of that at IHR.

sandeepmukherjee196 · #26

Rob - wssob2 wrote:Hi Sandeep

Note also that your use of the word "regime" (as in Roosevelt regime) is technically incorrect, pejorative and intellectually lazy. Regime is a word typically used to describe a despotic, authortarian government, such as the Third Reich, while the USA was (and is) a free democracy.

A more accurate term to use would be Roosevelt administration.

Just keeping up with the intellectual rigor on the forum.

Hi Rob....

The web dictionary ( non right wing as far as I know

) gives the following synonyms for regime :

government, authorities, system of government, rule, reign, dominion, sovereignty, jurisdiction, authority, control, command, administration, establishment, direction, management, leadership

There is an implication of authoritarianism in the term regime? Incompatible with the US system of Govt?

You may find the following article interesting. It is on The Progressive Era's Legacy : FDR's New Deal ( DISCOVERTHENETWORKS.ORG. A Guide To The Political Left)

" The Progressive era in American politics formally lasted from the 1890s until the 1920s. But its legacy continued thereafter, permeating the philosophy and the policies of Franklin Delano Roosevelt (FDR), who was first elected President in 1932, while the U.S. was mired in an economic depression. FDR campaigned, successfully, on a pledge to re-create the war socialism of the Wilson administration, a goal that was wildly popular with the liberal establishment of Roosevelt's day.

Once FDR had been elected, progressive-minded newspaper editorial boards, politicians, and pundits exhorted him to become a “dictator.” The revered reporter and political commentator Walter Lippmann, for instance, told Roosevelt in a private meeting: “The [economic] situation is critical, Franklin. You may have no alternative but to assume dictatorial powers.” Similarly, Eleanor Roosevelt mused that America might need the leadership of a “benevolent dictator.”

In FDR's day, the term “dictator” did not carry the negative connotations with which it is currently freighted; rather, it signified the idea that a political "general" or "commander" was needed to take charge of the battle against the economic depression in a manner similar to how Woodrow Wilson and the progressives had fought World War I.

FDR chose to attack the depression with his so-called New Deal, a series of economic programs passed during his first term in office. These programs greatly expanded the size, scope, and power of the federal government, giving the President and his Brain Trust near-dictatorial status. “I want to assure you,” Roosevelt's aide Harry Hopkins told an audience of New Deal activists in New York, “that we are not afraid of exploring anything within the law, and we have a lawyer who will declare anything you want to do legal.”

“The New Deal,” writes Jonah Goldberg, “was conceived at the climax of a worldwide fascist moment, a moment when socialists in many countries were increasingly becoming nationalists and nationalists could embrace nothing other than socialism.”

Many of Roosevelt's ideas and policies were entirely indistinguishable from the fascism of Mussolini. In fact, writes Goldberg, there were “many common features among New Deal liberalism, Italian Fascism, and German National Socialism, all of which shared many of the same historical and intellectual forebears.” Like American progressives, many Italian Fascist and German Nazi intellectuals championed a “middle” or “Third Way” between capitalism and socialism. Goldberg explains:

“The 'middle way' sounds moderate and un-radical. Its appeal is that it sounds unideological and freethinking. But philosophically the Third Way is not mere difference splitting; it is utopian and authoritarian. Its utopian aspect becomes manifest in its antagonism to the idea that politics is about trade-offs. The Third Wayer says that there are no false choices—'I refuse to accept that X should come at the expense of Y.' The Third Way holds that we can have capitalism and socialism, individual liberty and absolute unity.”

The German and American New Deals -- i.e., fascism and progressivism -- also shared the bedrock belief that the state should be permitted to do whatever it wished, so long as it was for “good reasons.” Chief among those "good reasons" was the idea that government's purpose was to protect the interests of "the forgotten man," on whose behalf both FDR and Hitler were proficient at projecting deep concern.

Conversely, FDR, Hitler, and Mussolini alike made many populist appeals designed to spark resentment against so-caled “fat cats,” “international bankers,” and “economic royalists.” Such appeals were, and remain, the tools of the trade for demagogues. (As recently as December 2009, for instance, President Barack Obama said: “I did not run for office to be helping out a bunch of fat cat bankers on Wall Street.”)

Roosevelt used the FBI and other government agencies to spy on domestic critics. He also authorized the use of the American Legion to assist the FBI in monitoring American citizens."

Many years after FDR ( Dec 2013), Ms Devyani Khobragade, the Indian Dy Consul General in New York, was arrested after dropping her child at school, handcuffed, strip searched, cavities inspected, DNA swabbed and held with drug traffickers and prostitutes. Why? She was supposed to be paying less wages to her Indian maid ( taken from India) than what she claimed in her Visa Application. In my book this sounds like a regime operating.

Ciao
Sandeep

Graeme Sydney · #27

Michael Kenny · #28

First IHR now DISCOVERTHENETWORKS.ORG. as a source?

David Thompson · #29

Let's get back on topic, gentlemen.

Sid Guttridge · #30

Surely, the Morgenthau Plan should be viewed as what it was - merely one of several projected plans for how to deal with a post-war Germany that were never adopted?

Cheers,

Sid.

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