What to say to a denier?
What to say to a denier?
I ask this question because I have seen some claim that gas chambers didn't kill people in the concentration camps but Typhus did and there was a severe outbreak of it during WW2,the chambers they say were just used to get rid of the bodies of people who had already succumbed to disease. Or they say we were bombing them so bad their rail networks so messed up food and pesticides to control lice that spread disease couldn't get no where.
Just what do you say to such people ? And are there any good online sources to refute such non-sense?
Just what do you say to such people ? And are there any good online sources to refute such non-sense?
Re: What to say to a denier?
It's not only limited to concentration camps but to any discussion really.
1. Just ask them what proof they need to change their mind.
You will quickly find out most people don't know. They will try to come up with an answer on the spot.
They are not in the discussion to change their mind, but to enforce their point of view.
2. Play devil's advocate - imagine you are a denial. What would somebody else have to do to change your mind?
3. Give up on trying to change other's people opinions (unless it's your job or you like a mental challenge). Just because you think you are right, it does not mean you have to go on to try to convince all the others with different opinion.
4. Don't pay too much attention to all above! It's just my suggestions...I'm afraid you will have to come up with your owns!
1. Just ask them what proof they need to change their mind.
You will quickly find out most people don't know. They will try to come up with an answer on the spot.
They are not in the discussion to change their mind, but to enforce their point of view.
2. Play devil's advocate - imagine you are a denial. What would somebody else have to do to change your mind?
3. Give up on trying to change other's people opinions (unless it's your job or you like a mental challenge). Just because you think you are right, it does not mean you have to go on to try to convince all the others with different opinion.
4. Don't pay too much attention to all above! It's just my suggestions...I'm afraid you will have to come up with your owns!
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Re: What to say to a denier?
I would tell them something illegal to do to their relatives. Deniers are among the worst morons on the planet.
"There are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach: those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here".
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach
Col. George Taylor, 16th Infantry Regiment, Omaha Beach
Re: What to say to a denier?
I've engaged in discussion with people who say they are just questioning facts that they have issues with in relation to the Holocaust, which should be fine it's one point here or one point there. But when you hear a litany of points, you know you are dealing with someone who has an ulterior motivation for not wanting to believe the truth in front of their eyes.
I have heard the argument about the numbers killed not being as great as reported. I say, "how much are you discrediting - that it was 'only' 3 million or 1 million" ? It's irrelevant and just semantics to me because even a fraction of 6 million was far too much.
I have also heard the argument that many died of 'natural causes' - I say, "if they had been allowed to stay in their secure homes maintaining their previous lifestyles instead of being loaded onto cattle trucks and crammed into camps they would not have died of starvation, exhaustion or disease".
I don't think they can go unchallenged but the intelligent ones (and they are not just uneducated idiots) are usually eager to quote ad Naseum from websites that churn out their diatribe. In the end you have to cut their oxygen supply by disengaging as it's doubtful that you will persuade them by an rational argument. To them it's all a conspiracy etc.
It's one of the few subjects that I refuse to change mind on even if some points that we believe are true prove to be inaccurate, the weight of evidence is just too enormous, I've seen the conversations of German POWs privately discussing their personal knowledge of Jewish 'actions' but I didn't need to read them to believe it was true. Those millions who were sent 'east' to be 'resettled' were never seen again. Where did they go ? Those of us who believe the facts before our eyes know what happened to them.
I have heard the argument about the numbers killed not being as great as reported. I say, "how much are you discrediting - that it was 'only' 3 million or 1 million" ? It's irrelevant and just semantics to me because even a fraction of 6 million was far too much.
I have also heard the argument that many died of 'natural causes' - I say, "if they had been allowed to stay in their secure homes maintaining their previous lifestyles instead of being loaded onto cattle trucks and crammed into camps they would not have died of starvation, exhaustion or disease".
I don't think they can go unchallenged but the intelligent ones (and they are not just uneducated idiots) are usually eager to quote ad Naseum from websites that churn out their diatribe. In the end you have to cut their oxygen supply by disengaging as it's doubtful that you will persuade them by an rational argument. To them it's all a conspiracy etc.
It's one of the few subjects that I refuse to change mind on even if some points that we believe are true prove to be inaccurate, the weight of evidence is just too enormous, I've seen the conversations of German POWs privately discussing their personal knowledge of Jewish 'actions' but I didn't need to read them to believe it was true. Those millions who were sent 'east' to be 'resettled' were never seen again. Where did they go ? Those of us who believe the facts before our eyes know what happened to them.
Re: What to say to a denier?
Very good sources for countering the idea that gas chambers were for non-lethal purposes (one may of course want to read general histories of Auschwitz too, to put these into proper context; I would suggest for example van Pelt and Dwork, Pressac, Anatomy of Auschwitz by Gutman et al):ickysdad wrote:I ask this question because I have seen some claim that gas chambers didn't kill people in the concentration camps but Typhus did and there was a severe outbreak of it during WW2,the chambers they say were just used to get rid of the bodies of people who had already succumbed to disease.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... ce-on.html
See also very thorough piece by piece rebuttal of denier "interpretation" of evidence on Auschwitz:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... -part.html
Re: What to say to a denier?
The topic is covered fairly thoroughly over on jewishvirtuallibrary.org
"Holocaust Denial: How to Refute Holocaust Denial" by Ben S. Austin
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... nial1.html
"Holocaust Denial: How to Refute Holocaust Denial" by Ben S. Austin
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... nial1.html
- Geoff Walden
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Re: What to say to a denier?
Just tell them that Holocaust denial makes about as much sense as denying that Apollo astronauts walked on the moon.
Seriously, as seaburn said, some of these people, you are wasting your time even talking to them. There is an entire library of Holocaust denial books available for download on the internet. I have done so, and read some of them, and indeed, there are some interesting questions.
BUT ... and this is a big BUT ... this literature gets bogged down in minutia, refusing to recognize that all historical accounts have conflicts, but this literature and these people get wrapped around the axle with the small conflicts, and they lose sight of (or refuse to recognize) the OVERWHELMING evidence, both eyewitness and physical, that the Holocaust did happen, and lots of people were exterminated in gas chambers built for that purpose.
Seriously, as seaburn said, some of these people, you are wasting your time even talking to them. There is an entire library of Holocaust denial books available for download on the internet. I have done so, and read some of them, and indeed, there are some interesting questions.
BUT ... and this is a big BUT ... this literature gets bogged down in minutia, refusing to recognize that all historical accounts have conflicts, but this literature and these people get wrapped around the axle with the small conflicts, and they lose sight of (or refuse to recognize) the OVERWHELMING evidence, both eyewitness and physical, that the Holocaust did happen, and lots of people were exterminated in gas chambers built for that purpose.
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Re: What to say to a denier?
They are a breed of conspiracy mythologist and most likely will never change their mind because of mere facts. It's been my practice to address their myths with information to refute it. This isn't to inform them of anything, they've probably already heard it and rejected it. It's for the people who don't know much about the topic. You present the fatal flaws to their myths in a clear, cold, calm manner and the peanut gallery decides for themselves which of you is right.ickysdad wrote:
Just what do you say to such people ? And are there any good online sources to refute such non-sense?
This also keep you from getting the ban hammer waved at you.
- 4thskorpion
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Re: What to say to a denier?
Say nothing.
“Silence is the best reply to a fool.”
― Imam Ali
“Silence is the best reply to a fool.”
― Imam Ali
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Re: What to say to a denier?
A suggested initial greeting:
"Hello, Denier, I'm Ickysdad. Pleased to meet you. I may disagree with your opinions, but I will fight to the death for your right to express them."
"Hello, Denier, I'm Ickysdad. Pleased to meet you. I may disagree with your opinions, but I will fight to the death for your right to express them."
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Re: What to say to a denier?
Doesn't work for me.
Re: What to say to a denier?
Ask them about the large amount of human remains found under Belzec and Sobibor in the late 90's, and about the fact that no German death camp functionary ever mentioned that the camps were anything other then killing installations.
Re: What to say to a denier?
I have to agree. It's a good feeling watching them exercising their right to free speech while spouting idiocy after idiocy on the internet, and sometimes for years and years. One gets to watch a free chimp circus act without PETA trying to shut it down.michael mills wrote:A suggested initial greeting:
"Hello, Denier, I'm Ickysdad. Pleased to meet you. I may disagree with your opinions, but I will fight to the death for your right to express them."
I think they lead a rather sad existence. Most except maybe Mattogno live off there wives' money or are dirt poor, are unpublished and can't sell their crap to a reputable publisher. Graf lives on his wife's tit in Moscow. Bradley Smith is maybe/maybe not dying in Mexico and broke. Berg is a lunatic who should have been a court jester at the court of Peter I. Krege was a charlatan as was Leuchter and "Dr. Rudolf" of many disciplines and aliases. The latest crop, eg, Eric Hunt, is a convict and court-admitted psycho. You can't write this stuff.
So where do you fit in Mills? Saw your old White Sea/Heydrich thread and thought it was bullshit. Care to go again?
Re: What to say to a denier?
Hunt is a vicious, evil bastard. I am not sure if Smith is alive ATM and Berg is impossible to take seriously.
Mills is a denier. He hung out with Krege at an Adelaide institute event about 15 years ago.
Mills is a denier. He hung out with Krege at an Adelaide institute event about 15 years ago.
Re: What to say to a denier?
There wasn't any war in Eastern Europe between 1940 and 1943. Typhus outbreaks were/are easily contained (they happened sometimes in Poland before the war and were easily dealt with) - it wasn't Dark Ages anymore.ickysdad wrote:Typhus did and there was a severe outbreak of it during WW2,
In twentieth-century Europe no disease was capable to produce large number of victims - without some helping hand.ickysdad wrote:the chambers they say were just used to get rid of the bodies of people who had already succumbed to disease.
Food was produced locally and consumed locally - rail networks weren't needed for that. There was no bombings anyway where most of the Jews lived.ickysdad wrote: Or they say we were bombing them so bad their rail networks so messed up food and pesticides to control lice that spread disease couldn't get no where.
You don't need pesticides to control lice, personal hygiene is sufficient for that.
They may ask some folks in my family what happened to the Jews in Volhynia, Brest-Litovsk region and Litzmannstadt - they saw that with their own eyes. Lots of people still here - who saw that with their own eyes.